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Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1861 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:52 am

Spoiler:
saintEscaton wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote: McDuh for all the praise of being an unorthodox wonderkid/ "new breed" GM bases his personnel moves on analytics


I agree with the rest of the post you made, but I don't know why some have the impression that McD is an "analytics" guy. He's not. He's a scout. Now he (or at least the team, probably because of Horny who is a numbers guy) have adopted analytics, but McD grew up as a film room guy and scout...he judges guys with eyes, not numbers. I think Hornacek is a bit different as he definitely will use the analytics, just by nature...he was an accounting major.

I think we are in the middle on analytics as a team, but as a GM, I think he is probably below the middle. That can be ok, if you just always get the best talent available, and maybe a draft pick turns into a superstar, or maybe all your good players result in a good trade.


I mean't he doesn't. I started that sentence out with "I doubt"
My bad. I typically don't have reading problems but I will try and work on that.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1862 » by Frank Lee » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:54 am

I wonder how a year w/o basketball would feel Kief ? I wouldn't bow to this punk. Him making statements as to how he wont talk to the FO, only one word answers to coach... then says a few teams he likes ???? What a moron. He stays home and away from any Suns BB. May be we trade him in December when full rosters are available, may be not... force a buy out, as in, here Phnx, here is 3 mill, now let me walk.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1863 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:58 am

Frank Lee wrote:I wonder how a year w/o basketball would feel Kief ? I wouldn't bow to this punk. Him making statements as to how he wont talk to the FO, only one word answers to coach... then says a few teams he likes ???? What a moron. He stays home and away from any Suns BB. May be we trade him in December when full rosters are available, may be not... force a buy out, as in, here Phnx, here is 3 mill, now let me walk.


One of the media members on twitter mentioned that you are not allowed to criticize or demand a trade from your team publicly in the NBA. Based on what Markieff said, I wonder if the Suns have the grounds to void his contract. That might be something they could look into if they do not get any good offers for him.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1864 » by Qwigglez » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:53 am

^Void his contract? :crazy:
Then another team would just pick him up and probably offer him 10mil a year. I could see the Knicks or another desperate team doing that despite Kieff's behavior. Pretty much Kieff wins if we did that.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1865 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:14 am

Qwigglez wrote:^Void his contract? :crazy:
Then another team would just pick him up and probably offer him 10mil a year. I could see the Knicks or another desperate team doing that despite Kieff's behavior. Pretty much Kieff wins if we did that.


Yes, he has serious value. We can get something for him. The biggest problem is that since the front office is hell bent on competing, we would need a starting PF back, and I don't see one we could get for him...

If we don't get a seriously good offer, we start the season with him......if by the deadline we don't have a good offer I say we take the best offer. I just REALLY hope they don't turn down a better offer as far as future assets go for an ill advised win now move that isn't going to help us later. But I think McD is on the same page. He isn't going to bring in a 33 year old PF to try to get the 8 seed over a couple of picks and a young guy even if it makes us less likely to make the playoffs. Now what does Sarver think? I don't know. But hopefully he doesn't hear about every deal that McD hears about.

I wonder if GMs knowing Sarver wants to compete and McD is more about rebuilding ever call Sarver directly, even after getting rejected by McD. I bet it has happened where Sarver gets a call and overturns a decision a GM made....or just brings a trade offer the GM wouldn't accept and tells him to get it done.

I think he tries to be less involved now, and I think he has little involvement, but there is no denying he wants to make the playoffs. We all do, but in the right way.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1866 » by Moochthemonkey » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:18 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:
nevetsov wrote:Looking at the first month of the schedule, there are only a handful of starting PFs I'd be uncomfortable having Tucker guard:

DAL/ Nowitzki
POR/ umm... Vonleh maybe?
POR/ as above
LAC/ Blake
SAC/ ... Cauley Stein?
DET/ Ilyasova?
OKC/ Ibaka
LAC/ BG again
DEN/ Faried
LAL/ Randle
CHI/ Gasol
DEN/ Faried again
NOP/ Davis (ouch)
SAS/ Aldridge (ouch again)
NOP/ Davis
GSW/ Draymond

The only guys I can see PJ getting destroyed by would be Ibaka, Gasol, Davis x2 and Aldridge. Faried could give him grief, but how would he (or any of the others) guard PJ?

And honestly, how much better would Markieff be than PJ at defending the aforementioned guys? Pretty sure Davis, Gasol and Aldridge would destroy most guys they go up against.

So in reality, if we did trade/ suspend Keef, I would be semi-comfortable with PJ holding down the PF fort for a month. He will arguably defend as well as Markieff can, rebound better, and stretch the floor better, while creating a bigger mismatch.

Bledsoe, Knight/Archie
Knight, Booker
Warren, Weems
Tucker, Teletovic
Chandler, Len

Tucker at PF......gross! I don't even wish that on my worst enemy.


I thought Tucker was your worst enemy lol
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1867 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:24 am

If anyone wants to take a break from this Markieff drama, someone on youtube uploaded the entire 1993 Suns vs. Knicks game with the brawl that changed the NBA. It is awesome quality too and Marv Albert is announcing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0F7AxkYno
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1868 » by TeamTragic » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:02 am

letsgosuns wrote:If anyone wants to take a break from this Markieff drama, someone on youtube uploaded the entire 1993 Suns vs. Knicks game with the brawl that changed the NBA. It is awesome quality too and Marv Albert is announcing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0F7AxkYno


Nice post. How did it change the NBA?
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1869 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:08 am

GoranTragic wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:If anyone wants to take a break from this Markieff drama, someone on youtube uploaded the entire 1993 Suns vs. Knicks game with the brawl that changed the NBA. It is awesome quality too and Marv Albert is announcing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0F7AxkYno


Nice post. How did it change the NBA?


It was the brawl that occurred that led the NBA to create the one game suspension for leaving the bench rule.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1870 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:22 am

I know it won't happen, but I wish the Knicks would be stupid enough to give us Porzingis and salary filler for Kieff and Tucker. They would make the playoffs in the East, and we would get a young guy with a boatload of potential.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1871 » by Stix » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:54 am

letsgosuns wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:If anyone wants to take a break from this Markieff drama, someone on youtube uploaded the entire 1993 Suns vs. Knicks game with the brawl that changed the NBA. It is awesome quality too and Marv Albert is announcing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0F7AxkYno


Nice post. How did it change the NBA?


It was the brawl that occurred that led the NBA to create the one game suspension for leaving the bench rule.


So in hindsight... we essentially screwed ourselves out of the 2007 NBA Title? :o

Oh the irony. :(
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1872 » by RunDogGun » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:07 am

letsgosuns wrote:If anyone wants to take a break from this Markieff drama, someone on youtube uploaded the entire 1993 Suns vs. Knicks game with the brawl that changed the NBA. It is awesome quality too and Marv Albert is announcing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0F7AxkYno

Thanks, just finished watching it. To be fair to KJ (although he totally laid his shoulder into Doc), Doc wasn't stopping either, and went right towards KJ. It seemed like KJ realized it and became the aggressor. But damn, the announcers complained about it most of the game. :lol:
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1873 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:13 am

Qwigglez wrote:^Void his contract? :crazy:
Then another team would just pick him up and probably offer him 10mil a year. I could see the Knicks or another desperate team doing that despite Kieff's behavior. Pretty much Kieff wins if we did that.



That would literally be Kieff's ideal scenario. He'd potentially get more money and the ability to pick his team. The worst thing the Suns can do in all of this is get nothing for Kieff. The FO, imo, has to get a player or 2 it legitimately likes who fit the future of the team. Otherwise, they are better off calling his bluff. See if he wants to sit on the bench for 4 years. Maybe he grows up. If he causes issues suspend him and fine him.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1874 » by RunDogGun » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:13 am

Zero Tolerance wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Nice post. How did it change the NBA?


It was the brawl that occurred that led the NBA to create the one game suspension for leaving the bench rule.


So in hindsight... we essentially screwed ourselves out of the 2007 NBA Title? :o

Oh the irony. :(

Yes, but it was only because Amare kept at it about checking into the game, even into his press conference. The following year in Boston, two players left the bench during an altercation, and nothing. Heck both Duncan and Bowen went six feet out on the court in our game, when Duncan thought Jones undercut Elson. Nothing happened to either of them either.

It was a joke if they thought that's either Diaw or Amare was going to escalate the fight. Amare was jumping like a five year old, and Diaw just was looking to see if Nash was alright, and I think he was calmly walking if I remember correctly.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1875 » by RunDogGun » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:16 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:^Void his contract? :crazy:
Then another team would just pick him up and probably offer him 10mil a year. I could see the Knicks or another desperate team doing that despite Kieff's behavior. Pretty much Kieff wins if we did that.



That would literally be Kieff's ideal scenario. He'd potentially get more money and the ability to pick his team. The worst thing the Suns can do in all of this is get nothing for Kieff. The FO, imo, has to get a player or 2 it legitimately likes who fit the future of the team. Otherwise, they are better off calling his bluff. See if he wants to sit on the bench for 4 years. Maybe he grows up. If he causes issues suspend him and fine him.

Which teams have $10 million in cap space right now?
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1876 » by Stix » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:17 am

RunDogGun wrote:It was a joke if they thought that's either Diaw or Amare was going to escalate the fight. Amare was jumping like a five year old, and Diaw just was looking to see if Nash was alright, and I think he was calmly walking if I remember correctly.


Hmm, I remember it the opposite of you I guess. I remember Diaw sort of running toward the action and STAT calmly walking over.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1877 » by Revived » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:10 am

bwgood77 wrote:
SF88 wrote:
NTB wrote:
Wow. It must be a torture for you being a Suns fan.

I want them to win at least one ring before my death. I guess it is too much to ask.

And I find it funny that people think we should be all happy and jolly as if we have accomplished great things. In that recent thread on if your fanbase is optimistic or pessimistic on GB, Warriors fans were saying that their fanbase is pessimistic even despite winning the ring.....so the team that just won a crap load of games and the eventual championship and maybe the 2nd best player on the planet as well as a second superstar and the best role players in the league has a fanbase that's not exactly super optimistic and yet the Phoenix Suns fans should be?


The Chargers are almost in the same boat in many respects, but you don't seem to have the negative sentiment nearly as much with them. It lately does seem like you just don't like being a fan of the Suns. Is that the case? If it is, why are you a fan? I'd like a ring too, but I watch and follow mostly for fun...a ring would be awesome. It was great watching AZ win the national championship one year in basketball, but that has zero impact on how much I pull for them or are heartbroken when they lose, or elated when they win. I don't feel "complete" because they won one championship. I think the championship or bust mentality has gotten a bit out of hand.

If I hated being a fan of this team then I don't think I would spend time posting here when I could be doing much better things with my life.

An example? BurningHeart hates being a Suns fan. Have you seen him post here since Dragic demanded out? Exactly.

Someone said something like this to Frank Lee as well and I don't think it's fair that we get our love for the team questioned by moderators simply because we disagree about the direction this team is headed or has headed.

I watch sports for fun, but yes having a championship makes it a lot of fun and takes the pain out of bad years. My neighbor is a Mavs fan and he's disappointed in the team now but he says watching the DVD he bought of their entire 2011 season makes him happy about the Mavs again.

I know it was asked before maybe by you or someone else on this forum or the GB and the answers varied but I'll absolutely take one year of winning the championship and then 6 years of bottom 3 basketball team over 6 straight years of being the 9th or 10th seed.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1878 » by Frank Lee » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:29 pm

All's fair in Love and the Internet, '88 :eyebrows:

And we thought last yr was rough ? Eventually the meddling peddling antics of our GM will either yield some real fruit or he'll be sent packing, adding to the ever growing list of GM's under the Sarver regime.(BTW, ALL of them rookies).

His luster has worn off with me. You guys can spit-shine him up all day long and preach the patience tune (BTW, 3 yrs is entirely enough and that excuse will not be logically tolerated very soon) ... but I don't see much in the McDuh/Babbler past that indicates a good future.

Three off seasons of dismantling and patch working rosters, trying to amass assets to make a big trade for a superstar....Going through the motions of wooing the top FA dogs... Monkeying around with the personnel so much that nobody knows whether to lease or buy. Experimental line ups to mask the asset greed. Reactionary forced moves.. This is close to being a Gallagher ****, and we are front row with no pancho.

Its a changing league. These guys now go where THEY want to. They are close to calling all the shots, especially the sought afters.... And with the cap explosion on the horizon, practically every team will be able to accommodate their demands. This regime has almost an anti player attraction quality about it. Not everyone (players especially) see this MoBro thing from our butthurt eyes. It just adds to this undercurrent of chattel treatment by Sarver and crew. The list of negative exit interviews grows on. Its a shame when players are happier to leave than arrive.

And you guys got me for the season .... hahahahaa
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1879 » by bigfoot » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:36 pm

SF88 wrote:I know it was asked before maybe by you or someone else on this forum or the GB and the answers varied but I'll absolutely take one year of winning the championship and then 6 years of bottom 3 basketball team over 6 straight years of being the 9th or 10th seed.


But that's not the way it works ever. A team that wins a championship is usually in the hunt for 4 or 5 years at least. Since Dallas had Dirk they were are always in the playoffs (14 out of 15 years) and many times making it to the Conference finals and twice to the finals.

It's been the Spurs, Dallas, Heat, Lakers, Pistons and Celtics for most of the 2000's. All of those teams won the championship ... don't recall any have having six bottom-three years before or afterwards. All had long playoff streaks of at least 8 years and multiple shots at a chip. I also don't expect GSW to be a one and done team.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams? 

Post#1880 » by bwgood77 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:24 pm

SF88 wrote:If I hated being a fan of this team then I don't think I would spend time posting here when I could be doing much better things with my life.

An example? BurningHeart hates being a Suns fan. Have you seen him post here since Dragic demanded out? Exactly.

Someone said something like this to Frank Lee as well and I don't think it's fair that we get our love for the team questioned by moderators simply because we disagree about the direction this team is headed or has headed.

I watch sports for fun, but yes having a championship makes it a lot of fun and takes the pain out of bad years. My neighbor is a Mavs fan and he's disappointed in the team now but he says watching the DVD he bought of their entire 2011 season makes him happy about the Mavs again.

I know it was asked before maybe by you or someone else on this forum or the GB and the answers varied but I'll absolutely take one year of winning the championship and then 6 years of bottom 3 basketball team over 6 straight years of being the 9th or 10th seed.


It's not just mods who question why you would like a team if you appear to be miserable. I think many people wonder this. If I bought DVDs of seasons I'd love to have and/or watch 88/89-94/95 and 04-07 and then 09-10. I had so much fun those years despite being heartbroken at the end, but that's what is great about being a fan...it brings out life's emotions..even heartbreak.

I HATE being 9th seed or 10th seed every year. I hated it more when we were hanging onto Steve and had like Luis Scola and Gortat though because that was a COMPLETE waste of three years. I am MUCH happier with where we are now then where we were in 2011-2013.

As you know, I think McD has made some boneheaded decisions and/or comments but I remain hopeful he learns from them.

What I enjoy right now is watching the young guys grow and work hard to try and beat out the vets. Eventually they will, but they may not have worked has hard if they got jobs handed to them. Most players don't start until maybe their 3rd or 4th year, if ever.

I was really excited when we went young and traded Gortat, Scola, etc, got Len and was excited about the prospects of getting someone like Wiggins. Even though we started hot that year I kept expecting us to fall back. But we kept winning quite a bit, despite losing Bledsoe for half the year. That year was a pretty fun year. Much better than the couple of years prior, and we were finally making moves to go younger.

I still can't understand what people who complain about the 9th pick want. To trade EVERY player we have acquired the last year and play with terrible players and hope we are so bad we get a high pick in a year there is a super stud? The first year Philly did that they got the third pick, and picked Embiid, who ends up being out for two years.

I still enjoy watching the team, and hope they win regardless of where they are. I still complain about what I think are FO or owner blunders, and there have been many of them. But some of them have to play out before I judge. I was hopeful with the IT signing but later I realized and was very vocal about how that, in hindsight, was an ill advised move. But I think/hope a lesson was learned there. Chemistry is important. I know it's been mention that it isn't and that stars are important. Of course stars are important, but so is chemistry. The Spurs and Warriors have great chemistry. The Cavs didn't the first half last year but did the last half and were a completely different team.

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