State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. (FIBA Americas Aug.31-Sep.15)

[mojo13]

It would be pretty idiotic to leave him off the team for struggling last time, when Team Canada brass and coaches are the reason he struggled by overplaying him. Playing 15-20 on this team certainly won't lead to him breaking down and his efficiency and per minute production should mirror what he's given in the past when not overplayed. If he's willing to show up now that he's signed a contract, but they pass on him for a declining chucker who couldn't hit his shots at the panams, and Trianos nephew who sucked during the final few games as well, it would be a mistake.

I don't think they left him off because of his struggles in 13, and I don't think they should leave him off because of that.

I think he was probably left off b/c he didn't want to participate given his contract uncertainty.


Re the nepotism angle, I am not sure why Heslip gets so much flack. I think he has more than proven himself. Doornekamp is Smart's nephew, but nobody seems to bring that up. And of course Rautins was the son of the head coach for the vast majority of his appearances for the team.

Many pages ago in this thread I posted the career senior men's FIBA stats for Rautins, English and Heslip in meaningful tournaments (I counted qualifiers and 2010 Worlds, but not Tuto Marchand games or friendlies). I recall that Heslip had the best numbers (albeit in a smaller sample), and English and Rautins were roughly the same. I will try and dig up the data and re-post.

Heslip/Rautins/English is an interesting debate.

I used to be quite-anti Heslip but he has won me over. We have seen him be the difference in a game when he is feeling it. And he seems to be feeling it more and more as he gets older and more experienced. I do still worry about his ability to defend , but he seems like an ideal back-up to bring in for a heat-check. Every few games he might just take over. Stash him back to the bench if he misses his first few shots. After he blew up in the first PanAms game he forced a box-and-one on himself. That is impressive.

I have always highly valued the FIBA experience and veteran leadership of a guy like English (especially on such a young team), but he seems past his prime whereas Rautins now has that FIBA experience and is in his prime years. Based on their recent league stats in Europe they seem similar shooters (Rautins looks a little more efficient) but I really am not sure who plays better defense or is a better teammate within the system.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Heslip/Rautins/English is an interesting debate.

I used to be quite-anti Heslip but he has won me over. We have seen him be the difference in a game when he is feeling it. And he seems to be feeling it more and more as he gets older and more experienced. I do still worry about his ability to defend , but he seems like an ideal back-up to bring in for a heat-check. Every few games he might just take over. Stash him back to the bench if he misses his first few shots. After he blew up in the first PanAms game he forced a box-and-one on himself. That is impressive.

I have always highly valued the FIBA experience and veteran leadership of a guy like English (especially on such a young team), but he seems past his prime whereas Rautins now has that FIBA experience and is in his prime years. Based on their recent league stats in Europe they seem similar shooters (Rautins looks a little more efficient) but I really am not sure who plays better defense or is a better teammate within the system.

I agree completely on Heslip. I used to think he was only a placeholder on the team for a few years, not just because of his weaknesses defensively, but in other areas of the game as well (ball handling, passing, etc.). I also undersold his shooting a bit, believing that it could be replicated by other players who could provide more. I've now come to the realization that when he's on, Heslip isn't just a good shooter, he's an elite shooter. And now that the team has other guys that can cover him defensively (as frumble pointed out in a post, Joseph and Wiggins would handle the better opposing players), and also doesn't need to rely on Heslip to carry the offence, his elite shooting can be a dangerous weapon off the bench for spot minutes. For me, he's now solidly pencilled into almost any lineup going forward as the 4th or 5th guard.

Between English and Rautins, and I hope I'm not being overly reactionary because of English's Pan-Am performance, but I think Rautins fits in better with a good team. He seems to have better overall floor sense and can blend in with his teammates and take a step back and still be useful better than English can. If you ask him to do too much, it can be problematic (see 2013 FIBA Americas), so if you need a go-to guy, then I would take English. But for this team and going forward I'd prefer Rautins. Obviously a moot point for this tournament, though.

[Risk101]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SunBrianSwane/status/631564016100347904[/tweet]

[Pooh_Jeter]

I remember the 2013 qualifying tournament quite differently.

I don't recall Anthony being a difference maker. He was the 5th big (Thompson, Doornekamp, Nicholson and Kendall were ahead of him in the big man rotation) and only played about 14 MPG. During that limited time. he had 6.8 rebounds per 30 minutes. Not bad, but well behind Thompson (11.3) and just behind Kendall (7.3). I really don't remember distinguishing himself at all.

It was 2 years ago so my memory isn't exactly crystal clear, but I think defensively he was a difference maker for the team. Thompson and Nicholson were obviously the key cogs (Kendall had a nice tourney too), but none of them were rim protectors who could match up with size in the middle. Anthony was able to do that and he did a great job protecting the paint and stabilizing the core of the defense.

TT has made strides since then as a rim protector and I think Sacre can at least do a reasonable imtitation of what Anthony provides. Furthermore, with guys like Olynyk, Lyles and Powell in the fold going forward we have guys who bring different tools to the table.

[frumble]

Per FIBA site, Vasquez is not going to play for Venezuela.

It really is looking like Canada will have more NBA players than the rest of the field combined.

Venezuela also hit with a couple front court injuries, and Donta Smith won't play either.

[tout court]

Woody Allen once said that 90 percent of life is just showing up. Unfortunately, Carl English has applied this maxim to his participation with the national team over the years. For the love of all that is good in the world I don't understand the nostalgia on this board for English's inclusion on this team for the qualifying tournament. Is it the out-of-control drives resulting in charges that you will miss? The ill-advised shots? The ball-handling gaffes leading to turnovers?

Granted English played when others wouldn't, or when the talent was so thin that he was forced to do too much, or both. But there is nothing to look back upon with fond remembrances. Even if veteran leadership is a concern on such a young squad what can a sage old head contribute if they are the 12th man? And that's assuming English possesses such qualities.

If the last spot on the roster comes down to one of the guard/wings let us hope it is Hanlan. He provides dynamism off the bounce that this team lacks overall.

[frumble]

Woody Allen once said that 90 percent of life is just showing up. Unfortunately, Carl English has applied this maxim to his participation with the national team over the years. For the love of all that is good in the world I don't understand the nostalgia on this board for English's inclusion on this team for the qualifying tournament. Is it the out-of-control drives resulting in charges that you will miss? The ill-advised shots? The ball-handling gaffes leading to turnovers?

Granted English played when others wouldn't, or when the talent was so thin that he was forced to do too much, or both. But there is nothing to look back upon with fond remembrances. Even if veteran leadership is a concern on such a young squad what can a sage old head contribute if they are the 12th man? And that's assuming English possesses such qualities.

If the last spot on the roster comes down to one of the guard/wings let us hope it is Hanlan. He provides dynamism off the bounce that this team lacks overall.

Is anyone on this board is lobbying for English over Hanlan? I wouldn't mind seeing English as the 5th guard, behind Joseph, Stauskas, Heslip, and Hanlan. If Murray is a go, I would think it would be English who is cut.

The discussion has been somewhat theoretical, in that we have been talking about Rautins vs. English, and whether we would have been better off if Rautins were in camp.

You are right - English has not been great in FIBA play.

But for all the out-of-control drives and ill-advised shots he has taken for Canada, Rautins has been about the same.

At meaningful tournaments (07 Americas, 08 last chance Olympic qualifiers, 09 Americas, 10 worlds, 11 Americas, and 13 Americas), in 706 minutes, Rautins:
42% overall, 37% from 3, and 12.1 points, 2.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists, and 2.1 turnovers per 30 minutes.

At meaningful tournaments (05 Americas, 07 Americas, 08 last chance Olympic qualifiers, 09 Americas, and 11 Americas), in 777 minutes, English:
41% overall, 37% from 3, and 14.2 points, 3.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, and 3.4 turnovers per 30 minutes.


Both have been mediocre for Canada, with flashes of good play and some awful performances which had me briefly longing for Olu Famutimi or Denham Brown to get in the game (or re-join the program).


In any case, given Rautin's absence, the debate is moot, and I think the 5th guard spot should probably go to English. Assuming no Murray, it is down to him and Scrubb.


Re Hanlan and his dynamism/bounce, I agree completely. And I can't understand why Wolstat and others seem to think he is a long shot to make the team.

[tout court]

Thanks Frumble for forcing me to bring greater clarity to my previous post.

I'll try being succinct: English should not be on this roster save an outbreak of ACL tears and even then it is questionable.

In fact, he's my first cut followed by Bhullar.

Smart has insisted in the past that P. Scrubb is as good as Pangos and Hanlan. This has always seemed as a bit of a self-serving argument by Smart because he is implying that with unlimited contact time between coaches and players in the CIS players can improve more than by going to the regulation-laden NCAA. Drills against garbage cans can only take you so far when your schedule is heavy with the likes of Algoma, U of T, etc, rather than playing against top competition in a power six or mid-major conference.

That said, Scrubb probably outplayed both Pangos and Hanlan in Las Vegas from what I saw with the latter being wasted as a spot-up corner shooter in a constant barrage of boring pick-and-roll action. Granted Hanlan did not help himself by being so tentative and it appears the Jazz management told his agent he had no chance of making the team even after Exum tore his ACL.

But please, team Canada brain trust, take both Scrubb and Hanlan over English.

P.S. English's turnover numbers verified that I did not imagine all those instances of him dribbling the ball off his leg out-of-bounds trying to create something off the bounce.

[PoundTown]

In regards to the Rautins and English debate, I think that Rautins is much more suited to a smaller off the ball role that will surely take place with Wiggins, Joseph and Stauskas on the floor in comparison to Englsih. Rautins defense is much more solid and in a smaller role can really focus on moving the ball, playing a 3 and D role, where as English has always had the ball in his hands at every level since college. Definitely would be an easy choice for me.

[mojo13]

Thanks Frumble for forcing me to bring greater clarity to my previous post.

I'll try being succinct: English should not be on this roster save an outbreak of ACL tears and even then it is questionable.

In fact, he's my first cut followed by Bhullar.

Smart has insisted in the past that P. Scrubb is as good as Pangos and Hanlan. This has always seemed as a bit of a self-serving argument by Smart because he is implying that with unlimited contact time between coaches and players in the CIS players can improve more than by going to the regulation-laden NCAA. Drills against garbage cans can only take you so far when your schedule is heavy with the likes of Algoma, U of T, etc, rather than playing against top competition in a power six or mid-major conference.

That said, Scrubb probably outplayed both Pangos and Hanlan in Las Vegas from what I saw with the latter being wasted as a spot-up corner shooter in a constant barrage of boring pick-and-roll action. Granted Hanlan did not help himself by being so tentative and it appears the Jazz management told his agent he had no chance of making the team even after Exum tore his ACL.

But please, team Canada brain trust, take both Scrubb and Hanlan over English.

P.S. English's turnover numbers verified that I did not imagine all those instances of him dribbling the ball off his leg out-of-bounds trying to create something off the bounce.

I question Scrubb over Pangos as I think Pangos played pretty good in Summer League. His shot completely abandoned him, but after watching him for 4 years at GU his shot translating to the next level will not be a problem. He was the main PG for the Mavs and ran the team quite well. He had a way bigger role than Scrubb and I think impressed people. Obviously Scrubb did too signing with AEK.

Regardless you are probably right about English - I think I am guilty of having an inflated opinion of him. His heroics in the the 2009 FIBA Americas in the do-or-die game against DR have stuck with me over time (Jermaine Anderson too). Along with his relatively good and long career in Europe over the last decade. But it seems time to pass the torch.

Here is the roster from the 2009 FIBA Americas that qualified for the WCs
J. ANDERSON
T. KEPKAY
R. BELL
J. BUCKNOR
C. ENGLISH
O. FAMUTIMI
A. RAUTINS
A. DOORNEKAMP
J. YOUNG
K. LANDRY
L. KENDALL
J. ANTHONY

No disrespect to these guys, but we've come along way..... minutes leaders were Anderson, Anthony, English and Famutimi. Anthony was 2nd leading scorer at 9.5 per game (yikes). Still surprised this team qualified when the much better 2013 team couldn't.

I am still not even sure I know who Tyler Kepkay and Ryan Bell are.

[Dread-Eye]

I know there a saying around here about "pics or it didn't happen" but I'm to old to be taking pics on athletes. But I just (2pm) walked by Olynyk and Nicholson as I was walking on Front St just west of York St. They were with a few other Team Canada guys that I couldn't recognize.

Those guys stand out, but people didn't seem to notice.

[frumble]

Here is the roster from the 2009 FIBA Americas that qualified for the WCs
J. ANDERSON
T. KEPKAY
R. BELL
J. BUCKNOR
C. ENGLISH
O. FAMUTIMI
A. RAUTINS
A. DOORNEKAMP
J. YOUNG
K. LANDRY
L. KENDALL
J. ANTHONY

No disrespect to these guys, but we've come along way..... minutes leaders were Anderson, Anthony, English and Famutimi. Anthony was 2nd leading scorer at 9.5 per game (yikes). Still surprised this team qualified when the much better 2013 team couldn't.

I am still not even sure I know who Tyler Kepkay and Ryan Bell are.

Thanks for the blast from the past.

I remember being shocked that Bell and Kepkay made that team. Bell was that generation's Phil Scrubb - star Carleton guard. (Osvaldo Jeanty kind of was too). In any case, I think he was a little out of his depth on senior national team, but we were pretty hurting at PG at the time.

Kepkay was a decent PG for Utah. But again probably should not have been relied on for senior national team.

I figured they would take one to be Anderson's backup. Not sure why they ended up taking both. Maybe Leo liked to have 3 PGs on the roster? I guess they have gone to the other extreme this summer.


That was the summer they brought Kabongo and Pangos to camp, but neither had a realistic shot at making the team.

It was also the summer they had a separate, preliminary camp for CIS/NCAA guys. Good way to get those guys some extra practice time, and to get a look at some other guys who might have a shot at making the senior team down the road. I guess PanAms kind of served that function this summer.

[Brazil88]

It is interesting that you say this. Is it just that you think the competition weaker than expected? Or did you see something at the PanAm games with Canada's play?

Argentina's losses all seemed very competitive at the PanAms and Scola and Nocioni are a meaningful upgrade. Mexico seems to have some depth with all the U.S. born players they are able to utilize, PR too to some degree. Mo Harkless is a very good addition.

Anyways, Canada seems to struggle too much with the transition to different rules and style of play for me to ever get too confident. I am hoping we can just put so much talent on the floor it compensates for the disadvantage we have with the FIBA style of play. I have strong empathy for our guys when I see them get thrown off their games through the frustration the comes with the grabbing, elbow throwing, moving screens, rough play and usually lopsided officiating. I am not looking forward to seeing our guys play Mexico in Mexico City - it will be 6 men on the floor against five.

Sorry for the late response. It's more that i think the competition will be weaker than i expected. But also about the amount of talent Canada will have compared to others, even if we're talking about young inexperienced players.

I know Scola and Nocioni will be a huge upgrade on Argentina's roster for FIBA Americas, but i expected a lot more from the rest of the squad. They looked bad in PanAm games and pretty terrible in a couple of friendlies last week against Uruguai and Brazil. Their roster is deeply flawed, Nocioni at his age is better suited to play the PF spot, but then you'd have to play Scola at C and that leaves them without interior defense and rim protection.

But then you look at the other big men they have and they are all terrible, so i don't know how they will manage this. Campazzo and Laprovittola are good guards in FIBA basketball and should help them a lot. So then you join these 2, especially Campazzo, with Nocioni, Scola and maybe a wing in a good day (like Safar, who can get hot from the 3pt line) and that's it. I can't see many other players in their roster who could help them at this level.

So, all Canada would need to do to beat them is play smart basketball (Argentina player's are savvy and their system feeds from dumb mistakes), space the floor and attack the paint using the wayyyy superior athleticism. Not rocket science.

Dominican Republic is tough and physical, but they'll miss Horford a lot, especially since i haven't seen Jack Martinez name on the invited players (he's been their best big man outside of Horford for years).

Mexico is dangerous at home, but they are not deep. One or two starters in foul trouble and they're screwed. Also, they became overrated because they won last FIBA Americas, which was a HUGE surprise. Their players are not that good.

Puerto Rico has always been a crazy team to predict. They can beat USA Team by almost 20 points, and then almost lose to Angola four days later (like in the 2004 Olympic Games). But i wouldn't worry too much with them, Larry freaking Ayuso is still playing at almost 40 years old.

So, considering Canada's talented roster and a weaker than i thought competition, you shouldn't have problems to qualify.

[Mattd97]

In regards to the Rautins and English debate, I think that Rautins is much more suited to a smaller off the ball role that will surely take place with Wiggins, Joseph and Stauskas on the floor in comparison to Englsih. Rautins defense is much more solid and in a smaller role can really focus on moving the ball, playing a 3 and D role, where as English has always had the ball in his hands at every level since college. Definitely would be an easy choice for me.

I think everyone here who's been watching the NT for years and years appreciates what English has contributed but is also on the same page since well before pan am. English's role, as you said, has always been as 'the guy.' The Pan Ams were the first time we've seen him take on a more passive role, and while I give him full respect for still coming to represent the country in a role like that at this point in his career for a tournament like that - the results were not good. At this point in his career, and the context of the NTs current make up, it just makes more sense to have established glue guys like Rautins, spot up guys like Heslip, or young emergency offensive sparks like Hanlan.

And to say Scrubb is better, or even close to being equal, to any of them.... well... i suppose we'll just have to disagree.

[Mattd97]

Here is the roster from the 2009 FIBA Americas that qualified for the WCs
J. ANDERSON
T. KEPKAY
R. BELL
J. BUCKNOR
C. ENGLISH
O. FAMUTIMI
A. RAUTINS
A. DOORNEKAMP
J. YOUNG
K. LANDRY
L. KENDALL
J. ANTHONY

No disrespect to these guys, but we've come along way..... minutes leaders were Anderson, Anthony, English and Famutimi. Anthony was 2nd leading scorer at 9.5 per game (yikes). Still surprised this team qualified when the much better 2013 team couldn't.

I am still not even sure I know who Tyler Kepkay and Ryan Bell are.

Thanks for the blast from the past.

I remember being shocked that Bell and Kepkay made that team. Bell was that generation's Phil Scrubb - star Carleton guard. (Osvaldo Jeanty kind of was too). In any case, I think he was a little out of his depth on senior national team, but we were pretty hurting at PG at the time.

Kepkay was a decent PG for Utah. But again probably should not have been relied on for senior national team.

I figured they would take one to be Anderson's backup. Not sure why they ended up taking both. Maybe Leo liked to have 3 PGs on the roster? I guess they have gone to the other extreme this summer.


That was the summer they brought Kabongo and Pangos to camp, but neither had a realistic shot at making the team.

It was also the summer they had a separate, preliminary camp for CIS/NCAA guys. Good way to get those guys some extra practice time, and to get a look at some other guys who might have a shot at making the senior team down the road. I guess PanAms kind of served that function this summer.

the feels... kepkay was like pangos before pangos. ryan bell was that CIS guy that they loved for no discernible reason like doornekamp. famutimi was even wiggins-lite before wiggins (obviously to a lesser degree but for canadian basketball at the time he was huge), though really his career played out much more like kabongo - highly touted (top 10 HS rankings, mcdonalds all american), left school early for draft, went undrafted and never made it. all thats missing is some ivan chiraev hype, and the sportsnet features on cadougan and ashaolu leading canada to greatness - i believe they called asaholu lebron. tough that both had to overcome gun violence against their family, but good to see even without the hype theyve carved out careers for themselves.

[frumble]

There was a media session after practice today.

Wolstat has a couple tweets about it. Nothing definitive re Murray:
Jay Triano says in contact often with Kentucky about Jamal Murray. Hopeful he can play but not sure yet

Grange has nothing.

Haven't seen anything else.

[tout court]

What happened between Team Canada brass and Kris Joseph.

He left the team in 2013 before the qualifying tournament because of an alleged contract in China, I believe, then I think he ended up getting an invite to an NBA camp and since then he has been playing in France I think.

Could he not have potentially helped at the small forward position given the lack of depth there?

Also, has anyone seen Myck Kabongo play recently? Is he really that bad that he can't even stick in the D-league?

[frumble]

What happened between Team Canada brass and Kris Joseph.

He left the team in 2013 before the qualifying tournament because of an alleged contract in China, I believe, then I think he ended up getting an invite to an NBA camp and since then he has been playing in France I think.

Could he not have potentially helped at the small forward position given the lack of depth there?

Also, has anyone seen Myck Kabongo play recently? Is he really that bad that he can't even stick in the D-league?

Joseph's departure in 13 was never adequately explained. Maybe he was upset over not getting much playing time at Tuto Marchand games. Or maybe he was cut and the China contract story was to save face.

Either way, I get the sense we will not see him back.

I agree he could have helped this summer, and in past summers (I think since 07 we have been going with some combination of Bucknor, Shepherd, and Doornekamp at SF)

Re Kabongo, he recently won that $1 million dollar hoops tournament with a team of other D-Leaguers. Maybe that will give his career a boost.

[curryking3]

Maybe no one cares, but women's wheelchair Bball team is playing live right now, pretty exciting game!

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/parapanam/news/parapan-am-games-today-s-live-streams-1.3188713

I would check out the men's Wheelchair Rugby at 8:00 pm as well, also Canada vs USA.

P.S.

And yea seems like Team Canada has started practicing.... pretty sweet it's at the ACC.

[Patman]

Thanks Frumble for forcing me to bring greater clarity to my previous post.

I'll try being succinct: English should not be on this roster save an outbreak of ACL tears and even then it is questionable.

In fact, he's my first cut followed by Bhullar.

Smart has insisted in the past that P. Scrubb is as good as Pangos and Hanlan. This has always seemed as a bit of a self-serving argument by Smart because he is implying that with unlimited contact time between coaches and players in the CIS players can improve more than by going to the regulation-laden NCAA. Drills against garbage cans can only take you so far when your schedule is heavy with the likes of Algoma, U of T, etc, rather than playing against top competition in a power six or mid-major conference.

That said, Scrubb probably outplayed both Pangos and Hanlan in Las Vegas from what I saw with the latter being wasted as a spot-up corner shooter in a constant barrage of boring pick-and-roll action. Granted Hanlan did not help himself by being so tentative and it appears the Jazz management told his agent he had no chance of making the team even after Exum tore his ACL.

But please, team Canada brain trust, take both Scrubb and Hanlan over English.

P.S. English's turnover numbers verified that I did not imagine all those instances of him dribbling the ball off his leg out-of-bounds trying to create something off the bounce.

I question Scrubb over Pangos as I think Pangos played pretty good in Summer League. His shot completely abandoned him, but after watching him for 4 years at GU his shot translating to the next level will not be a problem. He was the main PG for the Mavs and ran the team quite well. He had a way bigger role than Scrubb and I think impressed people. Obviously Scrubb did too signing with AEK.

Regardless you are probably right about English - I think I am guilty of having an inflated opinion of him. His heroics in the the 2009 FIBA Americas in the do-or-die game against DR have stuck with me over time (Jermaine Anderson too). Along with his relatively good and long career in Europe over the last decade. But it seems time to pass the torch.

Here is the roster from the 2009 FIBA Americas that qualified for the WCs
J. ANDERSON
T. KEPKAY
R. BELL
J. BUCKNOR
C. ENGLISH
O. FAMUTIMI
A. RAUTINS
A. DOORNEKAMP
J. YOUNG
K. LANDRY
L. KENDALL
J. ANTHONY

No disrespect to these guys, but we've come along way..... minutes leaders were Anderson, Anthony, English and Famutimi. Anthony was 2nd leading scorer at 9.5 per game (yikes). Still surprised this team qualified when the much better 2013 team couldn't.

I am still not even sure I know who Tyler Kepkay and Ryan Bell are.

Yikes. The 5 worst players on this year's team could probably beat the 5 best players on the squad.