Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[Saberestar]

3 way:

Markieff to Detroit
Jennings + a 1st and 2nd to NYK
Porzingis to Phoenix

Salary Filler as needed.

I really like this trade...I would give them even another protected pick.

[Saberestar]

I'll take Len over Noel.

I would take Noel over Len.

[saintEscaton]

yes, Wall is that much better than Bledsoe.

Someone said wall isn't better than Bledsoe? What the?

I think they're similar in ways but Wall has always been a natural PG. I think that's something you either have or don't.

Elite playmaking ability is a dying trait among today's PG and that alone gives Wall the upper hand. Bledsoe much to his credit has developed his jumper enough to where its reliable although its still broken whereas Wall has regressed in that department and has lost confidence even though both have poor shot selection Bledsoe is built like tank so his approach to attacking the rim is more like a bulldog finishing through contact with his body control whereas Wall has a more explosive first step and is the fastest end to end player in the NBA and absolutely kill you in transition. Bledsoe also has poor handles and can't cross defenders over for an one step back and can't keep them honest. Defensively they are a wash.Bledsoe is more aggressive and put up better stats on the other end can appear to be more dynamic with his flashy chasedown blocks although he tends to gamble more when intercepting the passing lanes but Wall had a better DRtg last season and basically locked down Lowrie in the playoffs so I think his All-Defensive second team selection was well deserved.(Although this metric is also proportional to the number of points per defensive possesion a team allows and doesn't fully quantify individual contribution).

Bledsoe has better TS% and EFG% considering that he is a slightly better 3 point shooter and takes treys more often and also has a higher free throw rate and gets to the charity strip and converts more often per a game than Wall. But he verages nearly 3 field goald attempts less than him per game. Defense is basically a wash. Where Bledsoe really loses out is his assist% where he only assisted teammates on just barely over half the number of field goals while on the floor in comparison to Wall (25% vs 46%) while Bledsoe has an assist/turnover ratio that just manages to break even.

[DirtyDez]

I'll take Len over Noel.

I would take Noel over Len.

We need to see one more year of evidence but right now I'm leaning towards Noel. Unfortunately for him we'll never see him surrounded by quality players or a winning culture. If Noel was a Sun and Len was a Sixer I'd take Noel for sure going forward.

[bwgood77]

Grantland launched a Morris twins board game. Enjoy

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-game-of-life-morris-twins-edition/?ex_cid=GrantlandFB

That's **** awesome.

[Sunsdeuce]

[saintEscaton]

I'll take Len over Noel.

I would take Noel over Len.

We need to see one more year of evidence but right now I'm leaning towards Noel. Unfortunately for him we'll never see him surrounded by quality players or a winning culture. If Noel was a Sun and Len was a Sixer I'd take Noel for sure going forward.

I think Len's ceiling is maybe a poor man's Chandler with better touch and a polished jumper but not as good a rebounder. Ultimately I think he will be somewhere in between. Realistically a more athletic/rim protector version of Valanciunas with less nimble feet. If he doesn't show his supposed greater offensive upside that was the justification for taking him ahead of Noel we might regret it in hindsight. I think the difference between their defensive impact will outweigh any offensive edge Len has in favor of Noel even if Len develops a low post presence /proves that he has consistent range in actual games outside of shoot arounds. Len would have to developed a multi-faceted face up repertoire and put up Marc Gasolesque numbers and I don't see him averaging near 20 PPG any time soon . Most of his points right now come from putbacks, garbage buckets and easy throwdowns where penetrating guards given him an open lane on the drive n' dish. I don't he will ever be a focal point of an offense and have plays run through him on the block or on the elbow but hopefully he becomes a capable rolling finisher under Chandler's tutelage

Noel has a railthin frame and isn't big enough to hang with centers down low but man he is a savant on the other end and has the versatility, length, fluidity and lateral quickness to cover so much ground in a hurry. Len has the advantage with his gymnast background and has bulked up with better functional strength in his lower body. But Noel could be the closest thing to Ben Wallace and a perennial DPOY canidate. He can float out from the rim and neutralize Stetch 4s who camp out on the perimeter and take on guards on switches during pick n'rolls, aerially alter and ambidextrously block shots with an impeccable timing and uncanny instincts. He solely anchored a Philly D from 27th to 12th last season. Whereas Len is entering his third year and has been pushed aside and forced to take the backseat for further development because he is a "proper" big who still needs to gain a feel for the game. I think Len could turn at out to be the most balanced center in his class without being truly elite at anything which might still be good enough for him to be among the upper half of centers in the league. But man if you told we would only receive one Top 5 pick after missing out on the playoffs for 5 consecutive seasons I would prey for it to be in any draft but 2013.

[NaturalBuns]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

[sunsbum]

Alex Len plays significantly less minutes than Noel. So if we are to compare per 36 to even things up...

Alex 9.9 ppg 10.6 rpg 49% fg 2.4 bpg 0.7 spg 69% ft

Nerlens 11.6ppg 9.5rpg 46% fg 2.2 bpg 2.1 spg 61% ft

Alex is coming along just fine, his offensive ceiling is much higher than Nerlens and I LOVE me some Noel.

[lilfishi22]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

I don't know what Bledsoe does significantly better than Wall. Wall is a pretty damn good defender and he's a natural PG with great scoring instincts too.

[NaturalBuns]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

I don't know what Bledsoe does significantly better than Wall. Wall is a pretty damn good defender and he's a natural PG with great scoring instincts too.

Everytime they go H2H it feels like bledose out plays him.

But besides that Bledsoe has either been a backup PG or sharing PG with a two PG system. He has never been "the" PG.

I take that into serious consideration. I think he's a 20/8 guy with animal defense in a traditional lineup. That is a good rebounder for his position

[saintEscaton]

Alex Len plays significantly less minutes than Noel. So if we are to compare per 36 to even things up...

Alex 9.9 ppg 10.6 rpg 49% fg 2.4 bpg 0.7 spg 69% ft

Nerlens 11.6ppg 9.5rpg 46% fg 2.2 bpg 2.1 spg 61% ft

Alex is coming along just fine, his offensive ceiling is much higher than Nerlens and I LOVE me some Noel.

Extrapolating stats on to a Per 36 basis is kind of a what if game imo you can use to paint a skewed picture. There's a reason he didn't get those minutes. Sure you can blame Hornaceck initially for playing Plumlee in front of him but he is also to blame partially. Problem with Len is his lack of discipline and foul rouble. His block to foul ratio is .5 meaning he commits 2 fouls for every block he attains which limits his minutes because he has to sit on the bench for stretches of the game in order to avoid picking up his 6th. He has to learn that there is more to defense than just vertically contesting every shot in the paint at the highest point. He needs to also lay off biting on every pump fake and stop trying to lash at ballhandlers after missing out on an offensive board to stop the break.Len also has his own injury problems holding him back. Foot and knee issues are quite concerning for 7 footers but hopefully he can stay healthy for a full season.

[Frank Lee]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

It appears Bledsoe just doesn't have the mind to be a floor general. There was talk of how the staff had to simplify things for him, and he just wasn't grasping what coach wanted. Personally, I think the reason why we have a 2 PG system is that one of them isn't.

[saintEscaton]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

It appears Bledsoe just doesn't have the mind to be a floor general. There was talk of how the staff had to simplify things for him, and he just wasn't grasping what coach wanted. Personally, I think the reason why we have a 2 PG system is that neither of them are.

Fixed that for you

[lilfishi22]

I honestly prefer Bledsoe over wall.
I think Bledsoe has yet to peak that's just me

I don't know what Bledsoe does significantly better than Wall. Wall is a pretty damn good defender and he's a natural PG with great scoring instincts too.

Everytime they go H2H it feels like bledose out plays him.

But besides that Bledsoe has either been a backup PG or sharing PG with a two PG system. He has never been "the" PG.

I take that into serious consideration. I think he's a 20/8 guy with animal defense in a traditional lineup. That is a good rebounder for his position

Bledsoe has had his share as the sole PG plenty of times. And he's just not that good of a facilitator or leader. He doesn't have that PG mindset. I also think his defense isn't a whole lot better than Wall's either. Wall right now is also a comparable scorer. Bledsoe is a marginally better rebounder, I'll give him that.

Wall right now is already a 18-20ppg, 8-10apg player with All-NBA defense.

[Cutter]

I'll take Len over Noel.

I would take Noel over Len.

Why would you do that? Noel and Len are about even on defense, and Len is indisputably better on offense.

[letsgosuns]

I have not seen much of Noel but looking at his game log, he was fantastic in March. Averaged 14 pts, 11 rbs, 2 ast, 2 blk, and 2 stl on 50% fg in 33 minutes per game that month. Even had a 30 point, 14 rebound game against the Clippers (Philadelphia was blown out though).

[saintEscaton]

I'll take Len over Noel.

I would take Noel over Len.

Why would you do that? Noel and Len are about even on defense, and Len is indisputably better on offense.

I have high hopes for Len. But as of now no they are not "about even" on defense Noel had a historic defensive rookie season last year that puts with all time great company. I'v e made enough well-thought out posts for today but I'll leave you with this instead of another sprawling wall of text no one will even bother to read. Noel's Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranking was second in the NBA, opposing players shot only 45 percent at the basket against him,and the Sixers surrendered 99.5 points per 100 possession.When he was on the court the Sixers went from being a league bottom defense to the second best. Len's only edges him out in contested FG% and his points saved per 36 minutes

[Sunsdeuce]

The more I think of it, the more I hate the 2 pg system. It's like have two quarterbacks playing at the same time in football. One becomes almost useless (see what happens when when Goran is forced to play out of position, last year. Although he played well, he wasn't half as good). I would use the preseason and see who is best suited. Whoever loses the battle comes off the bench. I could care less about their salaries.

[Cutter]

I would take Noel over Len.

Why would you do that? Noel and Len are about even on defense, and Len is indisputably better on offense.

I have high hopes for Len. But as of now no they are not "about even" on defense. I'v e made enough well-thought out posts for today but I'll leave you with this instead of another sprawling wall of text no one will even bother to read. Noel's Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranking was second in the NBA, opposing players shot only 45 percent at the basket against him,and the Sixers surrendered 99.5 points per 100 possession.When he was on the court the Sixers went from being a league bottom defense to the second best. Len's only edges him out in contested FG% and his points saved per 36 minutes

Noel got those stats playing on the worst team in the league in the eastern conference. Len got his stats playing on a borderline playoff team (for most of the season) in the brutal western conference. If Noel played the majority of his games against western conference teams (as Len does) those stats wouldn't look near what they do. When evaluating talent, looking at stats is super important, but then you have to consider context as to the environment in which those stats were achieved.