Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[Mulhollanddrive]

PGs that average 15-17 points and 4-10 assists per 36

John Wall 17/10
Eric Bledsoe 17/6
Kyle Lowry 17/6
Brandon Jennings 17/6
Brandon Knight 17/5
Derrick Rose 17/5
Kemba Walker 17/5
Darren Collinson 16/5
Jeff Teague 16/7
Isaiah Thomas 16/4
Goran Dragic 16/4
Ty Lawson 15/9
Mike Conley 15/5

[AtheJ415]

They should have traded Goodwin yesterday. It would have been a wonderful 21st Birthday present for him, to know he is going to a team that wants to give him a chance and develop. The Suns are more concerned with making the 8th seed than player development. I swear that is why they keep a few young guys on the roster. They never play them, but it brings down the average age of the team, so foolish fans can keep saying, "look how young we are!".

WTF.

So fans hoping a young player develops to be a good player are foolish????? That's what you have generalised fans who like to say Suns are young because those fans are hoping young players develop to be good players one day.

No, fans who say the Suns are a young team, and use that as justification for being mediocre, or proof that we are not a treadmill team, are foolish. Of the 3 young guys on the team last year, only Len was actually in the rotation. This year we will most likely only have two, Len and Warren. The team might have a couple young guys, but the players in the actual rotation are not.

Your definition of "young" by the bolded statement makes your entire post foolishness.

[bigfoot]

Another overseas veteran journeyman wing to add to the backcourt logjam. Lol wtf are we even doing? So much for developing the marginal homegrown young talent we already have.Maybe this means that Goodwin will be the sweetener packaged along with his buddy Kieff. Or he's another camp body brought in for competiton and he's headed to Bakersfield

If Goodwin can't beat out a second round pick who has spent time in Europe then it's on him. I hate these damn guaranteed paydays for 1st round picks. Paying $5M per year for a top ten pick that is a bust when that money could go to some other hardworking player just sucks.

[drewsprocket]

Another overseas veteran journeyman wing to add to the backcourt logjam. Lol wtf are we even doing? So much for developing the marginal homegrown young talent we already have.Maybe this means that Goodwin will be the sweetener packaged along with his buddy Kieff. Or he's another camp body brought in for competiton and he's headed to Bakersfield

If Goodwin can't beat out a second round pick who has spent time in Europe then it's on him. I hate these damn guaranteed paydays for 1st round picks. Paying $5M per year for a top ten pick that is a bust when that money could go to some other hardworking player just sucks.

What's the rookie scale becoming with the salary cap expansion? If it stays then its pretty well handled.

[drewsprocket]

PGs that average 15-17 points and 4-10 assists per 36

John Wall 17/10
Eric Bledsoe 17/6
Kyle Lowry 17/6
Brandon Jennings 17/6
Brandon Knight 17/5
Derrick Rose 17/5
Kemba Walker 17/5
Darren Collinson 16/5
Jeff Teague 16/7
Isaiah Thomas 16/4
Goran Dragic 16/4
Ty Lawson 15/9
Mike Conley 15/5

Man PGs have really changed over the past 10 years haven't they. How many of these guys would you really call a pass first.

[bigfoot]

Here's how Bledsoe stacks up with other guards who can get you 15pts and 5asts per 36 minutes

http://tinyurl.com/o9gp55t

Obviously three tiers of upper echelon players

The elite (Curry, Harden, Paul)
The stars (Westbrook, Lillard, Irving)
The pretty good guys (Wall, Bledsoe, Teague, Lowry, Lawson, Connelly)

[bondom34]

Here's how Bledsoe stacks up with other guards who can get you 15pts and 5asts per 36 minutes

http://tinyurl.com/o9gp55t

Obviously three tiers of upper echelon players

The elite (Curry, Harden, Paul)
The stars (Westbrook, Lillard, Irving)
The pretty good guys (Wall, Bledsoe, Teague, Lowry, Lawson, Connelly)

Westrbook is in the wrong tier. You're using total WS when he played way fewer minutes and his plus/minus numbers are crazy better. He had a better ORPM than anyone in the league, zero way he's not elite. He's also well above 5 assists/36 and well ahead of Harden and Curry by a little.

Try by BPM:
http://bkref.com/tiny/86IDA


WS/48 also does the same. And sorry (don't want to be intrusive), but hate seeing Westbrook underrated, he belongs with the first 3 and was an MVP candidate. I'd take him over anyone other than Curry personally, but Harden and CP are close w/ him and I see those 3 as a toss up.

[RaisingArizona]

Here's how Bledsoe stacks up with other guards who can get you 15pts and 5asts per 36 minutes

http://tinyurl.com/o9gp55t

Obviously three tiers of upper echelon players

The elite (Curry, Harden, Paul)
The stars (Westbrook, Lillard, Irving)
The pretty good guys (Wall, Bledsoe, Teague, Lowry, Lawson, Connelly)

Westrbook is in the wrong tier. You're using total WS when he played way fewer minutes and his plus/minus numbers are crazy better. He had a better ORPM than anyone in the league, zero way he's not elite. He's also well above 5 assists/36 and well ahead of Harden and Curry by a little.

Try by BPM:
http://bkref.com/tiny/86IDA


WS/48 also does the same. And sorry (don't want to be intrusive), but hate seeing Westbrook underrated, he belongs with the first 3 and was an MVP candidate. I'd take him over anyone other than Curry personally, but Harden and CP are close w/ him and I see those 3 as a toss up.

I agree. I'd switch Westbook and Paul in those categories.

[Saberestar]

The Suns have training-camp agreements with shooting guard Terrico White and small forward Kyle Casey, both of whom played in Europe last season. If they do not make the Suns' regular-season roster, White and Casey are likely candidates to play for the Suns' D-League affiliate in Bakersfield, Calif.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/08/20/suns-add-training-camp-players/32086997/

[NoKneeBledsoe]

I hate the per 36 stat!

That means consistency! Bledsoe is not consistent with his offense !

[NTB]

Omg Lillard is SO overrated. Wall is WAY better than him. Even Bledsoe is better than Lillard.

[bwgood77]

I looked up the numbers and like Wall more, but Bledsoe is close. Its not a huge gap between the 2 but ita there, could be a pc board thread, I may try it.

Can't see it being close. Wall is a stud and a truly elite passer. Bled has all the tools to be better than him, but not right now.

The only thing not really really close is assists, and RPM is close. I admittedly like both, and have Wall higher, but I don't think its as big a gap as there is from the top 3 PGs to Wall. I have Wall as 4th best point and Bledsoe 6-10 range.

It might be closer than many perceive it to be, but I can't imagine many or any non Suns fans thinking Bledsoe is better. Only a handful of people here think so.

[bondom34]

Can't see it being close. Wall is a stud and a truly elite passer. Bled has all the tools to be better than him, but not right now.

The only thing not really really close is assists, and RPM is close. I admittedly like both, and have Wall higher, but I don't think its as big a gap as there is from the top 3 PGs to Wall. I have Wall as 4th best point and Bledsoe 6-10 range.

It might be closer than many perceive it to be, but I can't imagine many or any non Suns fans thinking Bledsoe is better. Only a handful of people here think so.

Yeah, I think Bledsoe gets crazy underrated (similar to Conley a few years back), and Wall's better, but the gap just isn't where a lot of people would put it I'd say. That could just be the terrible trade board offers where people toss in Bledsoe though .

[bondom34]

Though I will say I've gotten into debates with Wizards fans saying Westbrook isn't much better or isn't better than Wall, and Bledsoe is significantly closer to Wall than Wall to Westbrook imo.

[batsmasher]

Omg Lillard is SO overrated. Wall is WAY better than him. Even Bledsoe is better than Lillard.

I get PTSD thinking about Lillard. Dragic deserved that All-Star spot soooo bad in 13-14 but Lillard got in on a bunch of buzzer beaters and hype. He was awful defensively that year and everyone completely overlooked it. Such a bloody snub.

Credit to him though, he was much, much better in 14-15. I just don't like the Blazers and I have no idea why. I think it was probably because I always thought their roster was built for mediocrity.

[bwgood77]

Omg Lillard is SO overrated. Wall is WAY better than him. Even Bledsoe is better than Lillard.

I get PTSD thinking about Lillard. Dragic deserved that All-Star spot soooo bad in 13-14 but Lillard got in on a bunch of buzzer beaters and hype. He was awful defensively that year and everyone completely overlooked it. Such a bloody snub.

Credit to him though, he was much, much better in 14-15. I just don't like the Blazers and I have no idea why. I think it was probably because I always thought their roster was built for mediocrity.

Is that why you like the Suns? Because we are built for a championship?

[batsmasher]

Though I will say I've gotten into debates with Wizards fans saying Westbrook isn't much better or isn't better than Wall, and Bledsoe is significantly closer to Wall than Wall to Westbrook imo.

Maybe I'm a Wiz fan but I think if you swap Westbrook and Wall, the Thunder are a better team. I just don't see how a team can function with 2 ultra high possession players. Russ without a doubt is the better player but I'm not sure if that can every truly translate into a championship team. Good defenses can adjust better when there are ball dominant players on the opposing team. The Warriors showed that in the Finals a few months ago and shared the ball a heap on the other end.

I'm probably just rehashing an argument you've heard a gazillion times before.

[bondom34]

Though I will say I've gotten into debates with Wizards fans saying Westbrook isn't much better or isn't better than Wall, and Bledsoe is significantly closer to Wall than Wall to Westbrook imo.

Maybe I'm a Wiz fan but I think if you swap Westbrook and Wall, the Thunder are a better team. I just don't see how a team can function with 2 ultra high possession players. Russ without a doubt is the better player but I'm not sure if that can every truly translate into a championship team. Good defenses can adjust better when there are ball dominant players on the opposing team. The Warriors showed that in the Finals a few months ago and shared the ball a heap on the other end.

I'm probably just rehashing an argument you've heard a gazillion times before.

Yeah, because it doesn't really end well. The reason they're worse is why OKC fell apart when Russ was out, they need to have more than KD scoring. He won scoring titles playing next to Westbrook, and yet people still think he should be more of a focal point. To boot, Westbrook makes teammates better more than Wall, has more assists despite a lower time of possession (the only guy in the league who holds the ball as long as Wall per game is Reggie Jackson in DET per player tracking on nba.com, and he racked up crazy assists compared to Wall), and Westbrook is the better rebounder as well. The nba wowy numbers:

Westbrook On:

http://nbawowy.com/kk66qchqp9#/kk66qchqp9

112 O Rating

Points per shot:
Morrow: 1.22
Ibaka: 1.13
Kanter: 1.23
Durant: 1.26
Roberson: 1.11
Adams: 1.11

Off:

http://nbawowy.com/druga9vlrhm#/druga9vlrhm

101 O Rating

Points per shot:
Morrow: 1.20
Ibaka: 1.04
Kanter: 1.17
Durant: 1.24
Roberson: 0.77
Adams: 1.06

Who has Westbrook made look better? It's not about Durant taking every shot.

And for Wall:
http://nbawowy.com/h4zs08cuki#/h4zs08cuki
106.5 O Rating On

Points per shot:

Pierce: 1.18
Gortat: 1.18
Porter: 1.14
Beal: 1.02
Butler: 1.08
Nene: 1.06

http://nbawowy.com/h4zs08cuki#/h4zs08cuki
100 O Rating off

PPS:
Pierce: 1.20 (got better without Wall)
Gortat: 1.18 (same)
Porter: 0.93 (worse)
Beal: 1.06 (better)
Butler: 1.04 (worse)
Nene: 1.03 (worse

So Westbrook is again elevating teammates more.

If the argument goes "Wall is a good teammate and elevates players ", then Westbrook does the same, only better.

Ultimately, KD is great, but when Russ was out he had such an offensive load on him because the guards couldn't score that he died in the playoffs. There isn't a single PG I think fits better next to him, and OKC would be substantially worse.

If you can't tell by the collection of stats, I've done this before.

If you still think they're better with Wall, I can keep going .

[batsmasher]

Is that why you like the Suns? Because we are built for a championship?

I think we're under no illusions where this team is at. The main difference is the Blazers put all their eggs in one basket with that team and it didn't work out. McD likes scattering his eggs everywhere and hoping he lures in a superstar.

The difference between a 51-win 1st round exit and a 35 win season is effectively nothing (ignoring the money side of things). Unless you make the Conference Finals, your team is effectively a failure. I don't think that Blazers team ever had any way to make it that far. I do think if this Suns team can grow into a 50 win team, they have plenty of ways to take that next step towards a championship.

[bondom34]

Also, last time they had a full season together, Russ assisted on 214 of KDs 731 made shots. Next highest was Thabo with 44. Even in 13-14 in significantly less games, Russ assisted KD on 145 shots, next highest was Jackson at 77 in more games played.

OKC ran an pick and roll heavy offense in which honestly Wall would have been disastrous, Westbrook ranks in the 62nd percentile in PPP on pick and roll, Wall in the 47th.