Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[letsgosuns]

I am not expecting Bledsoe to be much better than he already is. What I am expecting is that the players around him will perform better, thus increasing Bledsoe's statistics. There were many times last year I saw him make great passes only to have Marcus, Tucker, or whoever else screw it up and brick the shot. I think with Chandler and better shooters on the team, his assists should hopefully go up. If Bledsoe averaged something like 17 pts, 8 ast, and 5 rebounds, we would all be really happy with those stats.

[saintEscaton]

I love Russ...but holy crap, you guys went 18-2 when he shot 50% or higher, but only 2-8 when he took 30 or more shots. That's a crazy split - the 50% shooting one especially.

In general, I'd also bet most of those games were ones where nobody was shooting well. And I admit he has games but saying that he shoots that many shots per game is flat a lie. He shoots half that and has outliers. Its like a 50 percent shooter going 0-8 for a couple games here and there and you say he shoots 0 percent.

He did that 10 times this year, 2 times the entirety of the rest of his career. There weren't many other options this season, and it was an outlier.

Sure he has his chucking games but I don't consider him nearly as much as a chucker as say Melo, or even Kobe. Because even if he shoots a bunch, he also usually passes a lot, rebounds a lot, is all over the place on D, etc. He puts 100% in every area of the game, where who I consider chuckers often get lazy in areas that don't involve shooting.

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo. Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters. His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic).

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the historic all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to brick.PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep). Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product. Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables factors in the the quality of opposition strength ,positional matchups and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

[Cutter]

Ah,made up stats are the best. He averages about 17, and is a better playmaker than anyone on the team. Yeah, I'll take the guy who's the second best scoring option on the team taking the second most shots on the team. Seems a sensible idea. Unless of course he should have been passing it to Perkins all these years.

The leading cause of blindness on this site is homerism. Don't intentionally be blind! Westbrook had multiple games last season where he shot 25-30 and even had a 40 fga game. Hence the ball hog label. Don't get me started on his stats as an inefficient chucker of the ball. Westbrook is holding OKC back from getting a championship.

Last year when there were no other scoring options? And blind homerism from you, ah the irony! He's averaged 17 per game for his career, so half what you said. He was 3 games from a title, and oh the stats which I posted have shown plenty. As well, prior to this season (when he had Durant for about 28 games, Ibaka missed over a month, he had Perk at C for most of the year, and no other scoring options than Morrow), he shot 30 times in a game.......twice. To put that in perspective he had a greater number of games with 13 rebounds, or 15 assists (not counting this season). To second that, in 2006 your own Steve Nash had 4 games with 25 shots per game and a better supporting cast, PHX went 1-3. So yes, outliers happen. No, that doesn't mean I can say with any honesty that he shot that much every game. Its flat dishonest.

I'll keep the chucker, you keep your ideals, I wouldn't want you to actually look at numbers and think of his impact, may hurt your bias.

So the sad attempt at labeling him a ball hog is both:
1. False
2. Poorly thought out

And "inefficient" is also wrong, considering he's at league average efficiency. So, well, you're wrong. But please keep the cute emoticons coming, you only look more and more foolish.

Like the old saying goes "I was blind, but now I see". You'll see what everyone else see's one of these days. Are mods allowed to troll other team boards?

[saintEscaton]

The leading cause of blindness on this site is homerism. Don't intentionally be blind! Westbrook had multiple games last season where he shot 25-30 and even had a 40 fga game. Hence the ball hog label. Don't get me started on his stats as an inefficient chucker of the ball. Westbrook is holding OKC back from getting a championship.

Last year when there were no other scoring options? And blind homerism from you, ah the irony! He's averaged 17 per game for his career, so half what you said. He was 3 games from a title, and oh the stats which I posted have shown plenty. As well, prior to this season (when he had Durant for about 28 games, Ibaka missed over a month, he had Perk at C for most of the year, and no other scoring options than Morrow), he shot 30 times in a game.......twice. To put that in perspective he had a greater number of games with 13 rebounds, or 15 assists (not counting this season). To second that, in 2006 your own Steve Nash had 4 games with 25 shots per game and a better supporting cast, PHX went 1-3. So yes, outliers happen. No, that doesn't mean I can say with any honesty that he shot that much every game. Its flat dishonest.

I'll keep the chucker, you keep your ideals, I wouldn't want you to actually look at numbers and think of his impact, may hurt your bias.

So the sad attempt at labeling him a ball hog is both:
1. False
2. Poorly thought out

And "inefficient" is also wrong, considering he's at league average efficiency. So, well, you're wrong. But please keep the cute emoticons coming, you only look more and more foolish.

Like the old saying goes "I was blind, but now I see". You'll see what everyone else see's one of these days. Are mods allowed to troll other team boards?

My above post should put an end to the discussion. Can't refute that

[letsgosuns]

I think Westbrook is a ball hog but I still think he is amazing. His biggest downfall is his shot selection and how he takes those ridiculous hero shots all the time. Like he will pull up and take a three pointer three feet behind the line at the end of games when it is unnecessary. However he makes them sometimes so he probably thinks they are good shots. Whatever though. I would take him on my team any day of the week and he is one of my favorite players. His passion on the court is second to none. Even Kobe commented on that saying he sees Westbrook as the one player that has that same competitive fire every night like he does.

[Cutter]

Last year when there were no other scoring options? And blind homerism from you, ah the irony! He's averaged 17 per game for his career, so half what you said. He was 3 games from a title, and oh the stats which I posted have shown plenty. As well, prior to this season (when he had Durant for about 28 games, Ibaka missed over a month, he had Perk at C for most of the year, and no other scoring options than Morrow), he shot 30 times in a game.......twice. To put that in perspective he had a greater number of games with 13 rebounds, or 15 assists (not counting this season). To second that, in 2006 your own Steve Nash had 4 games with 25 shots per game and a better supporting cast, PHX went 1-3. So yes, outliers happen. No, that doesn't mean I can say with any honesty that he shot that much every game. Its flat dishonest.

I'll keep the chucker, you keep your ideals, I wouldn't want you to actually look at numbers and think of his impact, may hurt your bias.

So the sad attempt at labeling him a ball hog is both:
1. False
2. Poorly thought out

And "inefficient" is also wrong, considering he's at league average efficiency. So, well, you're wrong. But please keep the cute emoticons coming, you only look more and more foolish.

Like the old saying goes "I was blind, but now I see". You'll see what everyone else see's one of these days. Are mods allowed to troll other team boards?

My above post should put an end to the discussion. Can't refute that

Nice post.

[Cutter]

I think Westbrook is a ball hog but I still think he is amazing. His biggest downfall is his shot selection and how he takes those ridiculous hero shots all the time. Like he will pull up and take a three pointer three feet behind the line at the end of games when it is unnecessary. However he makes them sometimes so he probably thinks they are good shots. Whatever though. I would take him on my team any day of the week and he is one of my favorite players. His passion on the court is second to none. Even Kobe commented on that saying he sees Westbrook as the one player that has that same competitive fire every night like he does.

i agree that Westbrook is a great player. I also think Melo and DeMarcus Cousins are great players but I don't want any of these triplets on the team. I put them in the category of great individual stats, but doesn't contribute to team wins in proportion to their %usage.

There are several players in the league better than any player on the Suns, yet that doesn't mean we should or would go after them.

[saintEscaton]

I think Westbrook is a ball hog but I still think he is amazing. His biggest downfall is his shot selection and how he takes those ridiculous hero shots all the time. Like he will pull up and take a three pointer three feet behind the line at the end of games when it is unnecessary. However he makes them sometimes so he probably thinks they are good shots. Whatever though. I would take him on my team any day of the week and he is one of my favorite players. His passion on the court is second to none. Even Kobe commented on that saying he sees Westbrook as the one player that has that same competitive fire every night like he does.

i agree that Westbrook is a great player. I also think Melo and DeMarcus Cousins are great players but I don't want any of these triplets on the team. I put them in the category of great individual stats, but doesn't contribute to team wins in proportion to their %usage.

There are several players in the league better than any player on the Suns, yet that doesn't mean we should or would go after them.

You can also throw LMA into that category. But its not like they're dying to play for us either. Like I said before. Beggars can't be choosers

[DirtyDez]

I personally love guys like RW who play like their life is on the line. Cousins you have to light a fire under. Give me the guy you have to calm down.

Plus, that swag..,

[bondom34]

In general, I'd also bet most of those games were ones where nobody was shooting well. And I admit he has games but saying that he shoots that many shots per game is flat a lie. He shoots half that and has outliers. Its like a 50 percent shooter going 0-8 for a couple games here and there and you say he shoots 0 percent.

He did that 10 times this year, 2 times the entirety of the rest of his career. There weren't many other options this season, and it was an outlier.

Sure he has his chucking games but I don't consider him nearly as much as a chucker as say Melo, or even Kobe. Because even if he shoots a bunch, he also usually passes a lot, rebounds a lot, is all over the place on D, etc. He puts 100% in every area of the game, where who I consider chuckers often get lazy in areas that don't involve shooting.

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo. Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters. His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic).

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the historic all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective.PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep). Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product. Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables factors in the the quality of opposition strength and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

I am on my phone, but will reply when I get home, because again wrong.

[bondom34]

Last year when there were no other scoring options? And blind homerism from you, ah the irony! He's averaged 17 per game for his career, so half what you said. He was 3 games from a title, and oh the stats which I posted have shown plenty. As well, prior to this season (when he had Durant for about 28 games, Ibaka missed over a month, he had Perk at C for most of the year, and no other scoring options than Morrow), he shot 30 times in a game.......twice. To put that in perspective he had a greater number of games with 13 rebounds, or 15 assists (not counting this season). To second that, in 2006 your own Steve Nash had 4 games with 25 shots per game and a better supporting cast, PHX went 1-3. So yes, outliers happen. No, that doesn't mean I can say with any honesty that he shot that much every game. Its flat dishonest.

I'll keep the chucker, you keep your ideals, I wouldn't want you to actually look at numbers and think of his impact, may hurt your bias.

So the sad attempt at labeling him a ball hog is both:
1. False
2. Poorly thought out

And "inefficient" is also wrong, considering he's at league average efficiency. So, well, you're wrong. But please keep the cute emoticons coming, you only look more and more foolish.

Like the old saying goes "I was blind, but now I see". You'll see what everyone else see's one of these days. Are mods allowed to troll other team boards?

My above post should put an end to the discussion. Can't refute that

You can if you realize that he still made up those numbers. Lol

[saintEscaton]

Sure he has his chucking games but I don't consider him nearly as much as a chucker as say Melo, or even Kobe. Because even if he shoots a bunch, he also usually passes a lot, rebounds a lot, is all over the place on D, etc. He puts 100% in every area of the game, where who I consider chuckers often get lazy in areas that don't involve shooting.

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo. Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters. His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic).

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the c all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to bricking.PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep). Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product. Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables while factorsing in the the quality of opposition strength, matchups and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

I am on my phone, but will reply when I get home, because again wrong.

Nope. Its okay if you dont wanna admit it but can't argue against the facts. To put things into perspective roughly 86 percent of Thunder possessions with Westbrook on the floor end with either a Westbrook shot, free throw, turnover or assist. That is a historic level of ball dominance as he is involved in ending nearly 90% of OKC's possessions. It also makes his 48% assist percentage all the more unimpressive

[saintEscaton]

Like the old saying goes "I was blind, but now I see". You'll see what everyone else see's one of these days. Are mods allowed to troll other team boards?

My above post should put an end to the discussion. Can't refute that

You can if you realize that he still made up those numbers. Lol

So ESPN Hollinger, Bball Reference and Nylon Calculus are suddenly not reputable sources? Come on now. I've done my homework

Here's a link http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/04/06/james-harden-russell-westbrook-the-dichotomy-of-scoring/

[batsmasher]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Suns/status/635200059236184064[/tweet]
Sonny getting to work! Good to see.

Also it looks like they've relegated the #15 to children only. Seems fitting.

[saintEscaton]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Suns/status/635200059236184064[/tweet]
Sonny getting to work! Good to see.

Also it looks like they've relegated the #15 to children only. Seems fitting.

But it would be even more fitting if they relegated Markieff's number to the children only

[bwgood77]

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo. Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters. His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic).

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the c all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to bricking.PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep). Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product. Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables while factorsing in the the quality of opposition strength, matchups and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

I am on my phone, but will reply when I get home, because again wrong.

Nope. Its okay if you dont wanna admit it but can't argue against the facts. To put things into perspective roughly 86 percent of Thunder possessions with Westbrook on the floor end with either a Westbrook shot, free throw, turnover or assist. That is a historic level of ball dominance as he is involved in ending nearly 90% of OKC's possessions. It also makes his 48% assist percentage all the more unimpressive

Good research and solid numbers to back up your points, however I think a big reason Westbrook's %s were not better was because OKC was SO banged up for so much of the year with like all of their other best players out, and he was playing with scrubs and the other team's defensive focus was to throw everything at him.

[bondom34]

My above post should put an end to the discussion. Can't refute that

You can if you realize that he still made up those numbers. Lol

So ESPN Hollinger, Bball Reference and Nylon Calculus are suddenly not reputable sources? Come on now. I've done my homework

OK. So. here. we. go.

I'll be honest, I was being nice, because frankly I like the Suns, and the mods here are awesome, but a few of my least favorite things in debating players are:
1. Use of deragatory terms in general (chucker, ballhog, defensive sieve, etc).
2. Misuse of stats.
3. Stating incorrect stats.
4. Overuse of emoticons that seem to be negative (the crazy one, etc).

And the fact that 2 people and-1d a post that was a lie is amazing to me and shows that people really hate to think for themselves or research. The dumbing down of humanity I suppose.

Along with some others. You've pretty clearly done at least 3 of the 4 here. So the gloves shall be dropped:

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo.
OK. You're opinion and has no relation to anything here.

Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters.

Again, many words here, and him as a college prospect again not relevant. He was a 2 in college having been drafted to play a new position. As well, for his career he still shows as a roughly neutral defender using PI RAPM.His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, Well now we've gone from a poorly used stat to a wrong one. He was a +6.6, which isn't even in the neighborhood of .5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/on-off/2015/

I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic). Again, you're assuming bigs can pass. Those bigs were Ibaka (maybe he could), Collison (watched him for years, and no), Perkins (lol), and Adams(nope again). So again, not empirically backed.

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the historic all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to brick.
Partially true. I admit his selection is imperfect, though he hits that shot at a pretty good rate.

PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep).

Again, misuse of stats. Harden has nothing to do with this, what does is him vs. who he's on court with. These guys on OKC had a better TS than Russ:
KD (played 20 some games and got his shots fine)
Ibaka (not a guy who can handle high usage)
Kanter (got his plenty and only there about 30 games)
Morrow (bench guy who played fewer minutes w/ Russ and got his as well when he played with Russ, see the stats I posted earlier)

Other than that, he was passing to Perk, Adams, Waiters. No, that's not a good option offensively. As well, funny you dismiss PER which actually rates him well, but keep anything slightly negative

Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product.

OK, multiple things wrong. First, you're ripping his usage last season, when KD didn't play, then using stats for KD. So that's having it both ways, and I showed in this thread his effect on the PPS of every other player. Yes, they're massively better with Russ. And to add, I never once said he's better than KD, he's not. As for winning product, again wrong. They went 40-27 with Russ. 5-10 without. So had he played the entire season at that percentage they'd have won 49 games. That's a winning product last I checked.


Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables factors in the the quality of opposition strength and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

And finally, APM. So a few sources here:

RPM, 6th in the league
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM


Regular old APM, 6th offensively

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2015-ffapm-offense/

Defense again wasn't good this year, but FWIW, if its your stat, he rated better than Curry.

Try BPM:
1st overall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html?lid=header_leaders

Oh, and finally PI RAPM, multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17dNdxpgNHvOnMwnTmw65x5exfmQaA0C6T1w7KTmCiC0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Rating 11th overall, with some lower minute/older guys ahead who are plus/minus darlings (Manu, Korver, Iggy), and guys who are just in a perfect spot where the team built around them is such an ideal situation (Green).



So I'll end it there. You've managed to make up numbers and misuse them. I'll note in the future not to bother with you as the most useless debate is one where the other side is willing to insult and lie. So have a good one, I've honestly debated Russ's faults many times, with many people, and don't see him as perfect. But in all those debates I've never once had someone make stuff up to try to win a debate, and even have others then fall into agreement with them for that. Wow.

Edit: So with this said, I'm out. You all have a wonderful season, but jeez at least try to be honest. I assume you somehow managed to not watch much OKC despite them being on TV every other day, either that or you just don't know about most every player on the team outside Durant.

[bondom34]

I am on my phone, but will reply when I get home, because again wrong.

Nope. Its okay if you dont wanna admit it but can't argue against the facts. To put things into perspective roughly 86 percent of Thunder possessions with Westbrook on the floor end with either a Westbrook shot, free throw, turnover or assist. That is a historic level of ball dominance as he is involved in ending nearly 90% of OKC's possessions. It also makes his 48% assist percentage all the more unimpressive

Good research and solid numbers to back up your points, however I think a big reason Westbrook's %s were not better was because OKC was SO banged up for so much of the year with like all of their other best players out, and he was playing with scrubs and the other team's defensive focus was to throw everything at him.

See above, he made **** up.

[bwgood77]

Nope. Its okay if you dont wanna admit it but can't argue against the facts. To put things into perspective roughly 86 percent of Thunder possessions with Westbrook on the floor end with either a Westbrook shot, free throw, turnover or assist. That is a historic level of ball dominance as he is involved in ending nearly 90% of OKC's possessions. It also makes his 48% assist percentage all the more unimpressive

Good research and solid numbers to back up your points, however I think a big reason Westbrook's %s were not better was because OKC was SO banged up for so much of the year with like all of their other best players out, and he was playing with scrubs and the other team's defensive focus was to throw everything at him.

See above, he made **** up.

I guess I didn't fact check.

We should probably get back to Suns talk. This has gone from Bledsoe is better than Wall to Wall would be better than Westbrook for OKC to Westbrook isn't a winner. I think we have definitely gotten off track.

[bondom34]

Good research and solid numbers to back up your points, however I think a big reason Westbrook's %s were not better was because OKC was SO banged up for so much of the year with like all of their other best players out, and he was playing with scrubs and the other team's defensive focus was to throw everything at him.

See above, he made **** up.

I guess I didn't fact check.

We should probably get back to Suns talk. This has gone from Bledsoe is better than Wall to Wall would be better than Westbrook for OKC to Westbrook isn't a winner. I think we have definitely gotten off track.

For that I apologize and just edited my above post. I'm out. You guys are mostly cool around here but with BS like that I'm done. Peace all.