DJ Hayden getting beat out by McGill

[FNQ]

That's a ballsy take considering rosters need to be trimmed

I can't think of anyone making significant money being cut though. Howard seems unlikely but is probably the biggest name.. TPain also a candidate. Lofton doesn't look good at all. Bergstrom's time might finally be up. But underperforming guys so far (Tuck, DJ, Lofton, C-Wood) are locked into their roles right now

[benchmobbin02]

Lofton looks avg just like he always has but doesn't look bad. Makes the read and fills and is always in on the play in the middle of the field. Last year he got a poor rating from PFF but that doesn't tell the whole story. He is durable being the one of 3 guys on his defense to play over 1000 snaps. He doubled everyone on his team in tackles with 123 and no one else had even 60. He missed 22 tackles but that is understandable when your playing by yourself out there. NO defense was super sorry and Lofton was just keeping it together with sheer will. Our turnover at the position the last few years was the main reason he was picked up.

Tuck has only played 5 snaps and C.Wood has only played 15, so under performing is a massive stretch. Rest assured they will be ready to ball when the snaps count. They are the veteran leaders of this defense that we may have to count on this year again, so to risk injury to them and have them take up snaps we could be grooming the young guys doesn't make sense. That PFF premium account doesn't tell you everything. Had mine for years and learned it doesnt always paint a clear picture.

[frozt]

Lofton looks avg just like he always has but doesn't look bad. Makes the read and fills and is always in on the play in the middle of the field. Last year he got a poor rating from PFF but that doesn't tell the whole story. He is durable being the one of 3 guys on his defense to play over 1000 snaps. He doubled everyone on his team in tackles with 123 and no one else had even 60. He missed 22 tackles but that is understandable when your playing by yourself out there. NO defense was super sorry and Lofton was just keeping it together with sheer will. Our turnover at the position the last few years was the main reason he was picked up.

Tuck has only played 5 snaps and C.Wood has only played 15, so under performing is a massive stretch. Rest assured they will be ready to ball when the snaps count. They are the veteran leaders of this defense that we may have to count on this year again, so to risk injury to them and have them take up snaps we could be grooming the young guys doesn't make sense. That PFF premium account doesn't tell you everything. Had mine for years and learned it doesnt always paint a clear picture.

Yeah I guess Lofton is always going to be just "solid" which isn't a bad thing, but I feel like Heeney will and should take over his spot come the end of the season. And our corners are just atrocious and it's going to be an issue as always throughout the season. I guess you can't build Rome in a day, but next years draft we need to prioritize the secondary and issues at OT imo. #Hargreaves

[FNQ]

Lofton looks avg just like he always has but doesn't look bad. Makes the read and fills and is always in on the play in the middle of the field. Last year he got a poor rating from PFF but that doesn't tell the whole story. He is durable being the one of 3 guys on his defense to play over 1000 snaps. He doubled everyone on his team in tackles with 123 and no one else had even 60. He missed 22 tackles but that is understandable when your playing by yourself out there. NO defense was super sorry and Lofton was just keeping it together with sheer will. Our turnover at the position the last few years was the main reason he was picked up.

Tuck has only played 5 snaps and C.Wood has only played 15, so under performing is a massive stretch. Rest assured they will be ready to ball when the snaps count. They are the veteran leaders of this defense that we may have to count on this year again, so to risk injury to them and have them take up snaps we could be grooming the young guys doesn't make sense. That PFF premium account doesn't tell you everything. Had mine for years and learned it doesnt always paint a clear picture.

actually Lofton looks like a + in run D, which he always has been, and abysmal in coverage. If we're using him as a 2-down thumper, OK, but he's been left on the field in 3rd down situations and has been picked on. Regardless of just throwing compiled stats out there, his impact is definitely severely diminished and he's trending downward from his peak. We knew that already, its just a confirmation that the name isn't as good as the game yet.

Tuck's gotten stood up at the line every time we've put him in. Preseason, sure. But he's also been lining up guys who are flat out not good. Woodson OTOH has absolutely underperformed. It shows a continued trend of a guy who's out of gas but is currently penciled in as our starter this year. In 15 snaps, 8 of which were passes, he's blown 2 coverages entirely. For a guy with his IQ, blowing 2 in a couple full weeks would be awful. But in what essentially is 1 quarter? Yeah, that's troubling.

[FNQ]

Yeah I guess Lofton is always going to be just "solid" which isn't a bad thing, but I feel like Heeney will and should take over his spot come the end of the season. And our corners are just atrocious and it's going to be an issue as always throughout the season. I guess you can't build Rome in a day, but next years draft we need to prioritize the secondary and issues at OT imo. #Hargreaves

Depends on how you define 'solid', but for me that seems like a best case scenario right now. Lofton hasn't looked good in coverage, and this is a passing league. Definitely think our run D looks great - Dan and Jelly are doing a great job anchoring and our ILB are big time thumpers - but our mid-range passing D looks to be as bad as our outside passing D. RayRay, Lofton, and Heeney both look tentative in coverage. Malcolm Smith has looked alright, for whatever that's worth. As has Allen/Carrie and I've actually been impressed with both McDonalds, J Dowling, and newly signed Dockery in their snaps.

3rd game should tell us more, but right now we have several vets who are not looking very good, and their backups are looking solid. No point in deflecting that reality

[benchmobbin02]

Naw Lofton has look avg in pass coverage. For a MLB he isn't gonna have a bunch of pass deflections and picks. None are. He is every team in the leauge abuses the MLB with crossing routes, screens, misdirection, curls, seem routes with guys too fast or tall or agile for them to cover. Asking him to cover Mckinnon Wright or Tavon Austin and your gonna get beat a few times. Just the way the NFL works. Even Elite MLBs get are slower them guys like them. Tuck and Woodson can't be judged in this tiny sample size in snaps that don't count. It's the preseason. If you said that to their face, they wouldn't even be mad. They would dismiss you as a dumb fan who doesn't have a clue.

[FNQ]

Naw Lofton has look avg in pass coverage. For a MLB he isn't gonna have a bunch of pass deflections and picks. None are. He is every team in the leauge abuses the MLB with crossing routes, screens, misdirection, curls, seem routes with guys too fast or tall or agile for them to cover. Asking him to cover Mckinnon Wright or Tavon Austin and your gonna get beat a few times. Just the way the NFL works. Even Elite MLBs get are slower them guys like them. Tuck and Woodson can't be judged in this tiny sample size in snaps that don't count. It's the preseason. If you said that to their face, they wouldn't even be mad. They would dismiss you as a dumb fan who doesn't have a clue.

I guess I'd just cite the last 8 games of the last season, where they both played like they didnt have a clue. Tuck was a -5, Woodson was hands down the worst safety in the league in the final 8. Pretty illogical to look at how they poor they closed out the season, how poor they've been in limited snaps in the preseason, and dismiss it with irrelevant rhetoric like everything should be fine.

Same applies for Lofton, who was beat up the middle a ton last year in the pass game as well. True that some elite guys can't hang with everyone - but a lot of ILB these days can hang with these speedster types and position themselves accordingly. Lofton has not made that adjustment. He didn't look even average in pass coverage before I checked PFF... they just confirmed what I saw. A corps of LBs that are too slow and not quite aware enough to protect the middle.

[Twinkie defense]

That's a ballsy take considering rosters need to be trimmed

I can't think of anyone making significant money being cut though. Howard seems unlikely but is probably the biggest name.. TPain also a candidate. Lofton doesn't look good at all. Bergstrom's time might finally be up. But underperforming guys so far (Tuck, DJ, Lofton, C-Wood) are locked into their roles right now

I mean I bet there are starting caliber CBs (though older, overpaid) that get cut and whom could find a home on the Raiders.

[Twinkie defense]

I don't think Woodson was bad at all second half of last season, though he was used differently, playing up in the box, starting about midway through.

Four of the last six games run defense held opponents to under 100 yards - this after multiple 200 yard rushing games over first half.

[benchmobbin02]

Naw Lofton has look avg in pass coverage. For a MLB he isn't gonna have a bunch of pass deflections and picks. None are. He is every team in the leauge abuses the MLB with crossing routes, screens, misdirection, curls, seem routes with guys too fast or tall or agile for them to cover. Asking him to cover Mckinnon Wright or Tavon Austin and your gonna get beat a few times. Just the way the NFL works. Even Elite MLBs get are slower them guys like them. Tuck and Woodson can't be judged in this tiny sample size in snaps that don't count. It's the preseason. If you said that to their face, they wouldn't even be mad. They would dismiss you as a dumb fan who doesn't have a clue.

I guess I'd just cite the last 8 games of the last season, where they both played like they didnt have a clue. Tuck was a -5, Woodson was hands down the worst safety in the league in the final 8. Pretty illogical to look at how they poor they closed out the season, how poor they've been in limited snaps in the preseason, and dismiss it with irrelevant rhetoric like everything should be fine.

Same applies for Lofton, who was beat up the middle a ton last year in the pass game as well. True that some elite guys can't hang with everyone - but a lot of ILB these days can hang with these speedster types and position themselves accordingly. Lofton has not made that adjustment. He didn't look even average in pass coverage before I checked PFF... they just confirmed what I saw. A corps of LBs that are too slow and not quite aware enough to protect the middle.

Yup and at this point in his career Cwood shouldn't be playing SS but was forced to due to injuries. That is the reason for the statistical down turn. He is too slight of frame to be playing in the box on a regular basis.

Tuck went thru the motions basically vs the Rams in one series and didn't play vs the Viks. He was avg the last half of the yr but got a neg rating due to the 4 penalties over 8 games. -2.3 in penalty rating totaled out with 0.0 pass rush and run coverage totaled out to -2.0 overall over the last 8 games.

I wouldn't call that they didn't have a clue.

Lofton may have been beat up the middle last yr, I didnt watch any NO games last yr. But this year he didnt give up any pass vs the RAMS and was only thrown at 3 times vs the Viks for 3 completions and 15 yrds. Once was a curl from the RB for one yard. Lofton kept the play in front of him and made the tackle for no YAC. Another was a shallow cross from Wright for one yard. Lofton again kept the play in front of him and made the tackle for with no YAC.

Last was the bootleg by bridgewater to the TE were asante ended up with a stringer or whatever mostly due to poor tackling technique. Mayowa was the OLB/DE with contain on the right and Lofton was the MLB on that side with off set I formation in the back field. TE motioned to the end of the line from the FB postion in the back field. Bridgewater faked to the HB and bootlegged and threw to the TE in flat for 1 yard. Mayowa and Lofton followed the fake action and had to come half way across the field to chase the TE. The Safeties and Corner on that side were the first there and made the tackle. That is the only negative play Lofton made in pass coverage all game if you could call it that. Yes, technically that was his man but no one makes that play. The play is designed so the MLB can't get there in time with an effective play fake by the QB.

actually Lofton looks like a + in run D, which he always has been, and abysmal in coverage. If we're using him as a 2-down thumper, OK, but he's been left on the field in 3rd down situations and has been picked on. Regardless of just throwing compiled stats out there, his impact is definitely severely diminished and he's trending downward from his peak. We knew that already, its just a confirmation that the name isn't as good as the game yet.

Lofton has looked pretty good vs the pass the tape shows. Oh and btw, Lofton only played two 3rd downs. One was an assisted tack with Ray Ray on the TE for 3 yards, no YAC, forced 4th. Other was the Bootlegged. He is being used only in 2 down situations for the most part, 2 of his 23 snaps were 3rd down.

[FNQ]

I don't think Woodson was bad at all second half of last season, though he was used differently, playing up in the box, starting about midway through.

Four of the last six games run defense held opponents to under 100 yards - this after multiple 200 yard rushing games over first half.

I think that 2nd stat might have more to do with Jelly getting consistent snaps, and more of Mack on the line. Woodson was definitely not a + part of our run defense.

He's definitely out of position, but I really dont care about that stuff... it matters where he's playing now and how he's doing. Right now, historically, it's not looking good.

[FNQ]

re: Lofton, he plants too much for my taste for a MLB.

He's also played 34 snaps, and I'd be willing to bet he's been on the field for more than 2 snaps on 3rd down so far this preseason

[benchmobbin02]

I don't think Woodson was bad at all second half of last season, though he was used differently, playing up in the box, starting about midway through.

Four of the last six games run defense held opponents to under 100 yards - this after multiple 200 yard rushing games over first half.

I think that 2nd stat might have more to do with Jelly getting consistent snaps, and more of Mack on the line. Woodson was definitely not a + part of our run defense.

He's definitely out of position, but I really dont care about that stuff... it matters where he's playing now and how he's doing. Right now, historically, it's not looking good.

What do you mean by "historically"?

[benchmobbin02]

re: Lofton, he plants too much for my taste for a MLB.

He's also played 34 snaps, and I'd be willing to bet he's been on the field for more than 2 snaps on 3rd down so far this preseason

You'd be right. I was counting this game last game as you were well aware. But I did make a mistake. He played 3 3rd downs last game out of 23 snaps. 9 on 1st, 9 on 2nd, 3 on 3rd, 3 on FG coverage. Didnt count the Stl game but it was just about the same. So yes, he is being used as a 2 down run stopper for the most part and being taken off the field in obvious passing situations.

[FNQ]

I don't think Woodson was bad at all second half of last season, though he was used differently, playing up in the box, starting about midway through.

Four of the last six games run defense held opponents to under 100 yards - this after multiple 200 yard rushing games over first half.

I think that 2nd stat might have more to do with Jelly getting consistent snaps, and more of Mack on the line. Woodson was definitely not a + part of our run defense.

He's definitely out of position, but I really dont care about that stuff... it matters where he's playing now and how he's doing. Right now, historically, it's not looking good.

What do you mean by "historically"?

Players his age and rebounding. But it could also mean based on the steep decline of last year.

[FNQ]

re: Lofton, he plants too much for my taste for a MLB.

He's also played 34 snaps, and I'd be willing to bet he's been on the field for more than 2 snaps on 3rd down so far this preseason

You'd be right. I was counting this game last game as you were well aware. But I did make a mistake. He played 3 3rd downs last game out of 23 snaps. 9 on 1st, 9 on 2nd, 3 on 3rd, 3 on FG coverage. Didnt count the Stl game but it was just about the same. So yes, he is being used as a 2 down run stopper for the most part and being taken off the field in obvious passing situations.

He was also in on all but 1 3rd down vs the Rams (2/3)... maybe they are just trying him out there. Hope that's the case, anyways.

[benchmobbin02]

I think that 2nd stat might have more to do with Jelly getting consistent snaps, and more of Mack on the line. Woodson was definitely not a + part of our run defense.

He's definitely out of position, but I really dont care about that stuff... it matters where he's playing now and how he's doing. Right now, historically, it's not looking good.

What do you mean by "historically"?

Players his age and rebounding. But it could also mean based on the steep decline of last year.

Well, we already established that his decline at the end of the season last year had more to do with him playing out of position so that has no bearing on the convo due to his "historically" great play while in the position that suites his skill set, experience, body type and fit in the defense.

Their aren't really any comps to Woodson career besides Ronnie Lott when it comes to longevity, position flexibility, leadership, awards, overall athletic ability and consistent production.

Looking back CWood has only played one yr at SS in GB in 2012. his production was way down due to playing in the box and he eventually broken his collar bone in game 7. Flahs forward to 2014 and when our starting SS, Usama Young, went down in week 6 the whole defense got screwed up. We were trying to different guys in different roles including switching in Ross and Asante in at safety and swooping them with CWood and the revolving door at corner. We moved Woodson to the position he played in GB in 2012 and he had 6 bad games (SEA, STL, KC, SD, and both DEN games) which made his grade in PFF plummet.

If he would have stayed at FS with a decent SS next to him he would have been a top 5 FS in the league. So I don't wanna hear anything about his age. He is a freak of nature and a suave vet who knows how to use his mind to make plays and still be effective on defense. He is also a leader and team player who sacrificed cuz the team needed him.

So lets see how things shape up when the snaps matter. CWood, and Tuck for that matter, will both be there for the Silver and Black leading the team.

[benchmobbin02]

re: Lofton, he plants too much for my taste for a MLB.

He's also played 34 snaps, and I'd be willing to bet he's been on the field for more than 2 snaps on 3rd down so far this preseason

You'd be right. I was counting this game last game as you were well aware. But I did make a mistake. He played 3 3rd downs last game out of 23 snaps. 9 on 1st, 9 on 2nd, 3 on 3rd, 3 on FG coverage. Didnt count the Stl game but it was just about the same. So yes, he is being used as a 2 down run stopper for the most part and being taken off the field in obvious passing situations.

He was also in on all but 1 3rd down vs the Rams (2/3)... maybe they are just trying him out there. Hope that's the case, anyways.

It has more to do with situation then down. When we have the base defense in like on 1st and 10 or 2 and 7 he is on the field but when we go to the nickel or hybrid formation with Mack and Mayowa on the ends and faster DTs, then Ray Ray and Smith are the backers. He has played a few times with 5 dbs on the field but I think it had to to with fatigue subbing or the offense running hurry up. But the pattern became clear in the last game that he plays base, goaline and fg and doesn't in nickel, dime, sets where the offense uses spread personal.

[FNQ]

What do you mean by "historically"?

Players his age and rebounding. But it could also mean based on the steep decline of last year.

Well, we already established that his decline at the end of the season last year had more to do with him playing out of position so that has no bearing on the convo due to his "historically" great play while in the position that suites his skill set, experience, body type and fit in the defense.

Their aren't really any comps to Woodson career besides Ronnie Lott when it comes to longevity, position flexibility, leadership, awards, overall athletic ability and consistent production.

Looking back CWood has only played one yr at SS in GB in 2012. his production was way down due to playing in the box and he eventually broken his collar bone in game 7. Flahs forward to 2014 and when our starting SS, Usama Young, went down in week 6 the whole defense got screwed up. We were trying to different guys in different roles including switching in Ross and Asante in at safety and swooping them with CWood and the revolving door at corner. We moved Woodson to the position he played in GB in 2012 and he had 6 bad games (SEA, STL, KC, SD, and both DEN games) which made his grade in PFF plummet.

If he would have stayed at FS with a decent SS next to him he would have been a top 5 FS in the league. So I don't wanna hear anything about his age. He is a freak of nature and a suave vet who knows how to use his mind to make plays and still be effective on defense. He is also a leader and team player who sacrificed cuz the team needed him.

So lets see how things shape up when the snaps matter. CWood, and Tuck for that matter, will both be there for the Silver and Black leading the team.

If he was staying at FS, we probably don't have the conversation. But despite the story being told, he was abysmal in both tackling and coverage to end last year, and is looking bad in coverage again, which is supposed to be his strong suit. If we're just going to take small sample sizes when its convenient, the Raiders could have a glut of Pro Bowlers.

[benchmobbin02]

I have already told you the reason why his stats looked bad last year. I don't know how much clearer I can be. And half a season isnt a small sample size and your not taking into account his changing position or the wear and tear on his body or the lack of a quality safety mate or decent corner play. But even so, youre the one saying that his 15 snaps in the PRESEASON means he looks terrible and that that means something haha smh. The poor grade that youre basing this all on is from the one play vs the Rams. Talk about a small sample size.