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Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#541 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:17 am

I have my criticisms of Len, but I think his ceiling is higher than Chandler (but heck, Chandler's ceiling was higher than Chandler as he turned out). Len's bigger, longer, and has touch on his J. Not as athletic. But I think we'd be fools to include him in a deal. If George is coming back - ok, but the disparity in value, in my eyes, isn't nearly what some have represented. Len and Warren? Goodness, that's close. Add a 1st (from us), and I think that's a fair deal for both sides. I'd probably pull that trigger, though, frankly, I'd hate to do it. I like what we got.

BTW, Myles Turner looks like a steal for Indiana. Good for them. That franchise could use a bit of luck.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#542 » by Safety Pickle » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:34 am

letsgosuns wrote:
1UPZ wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:I would not trade Len for George. You do not trade big for small. Plus George has had only one year of being a 20+ point scorer and had a devastating injury. I personally think he will still be a good player but I never considered him a superstar in the first place even prior to his injury. Maybe a rising star but I just do not see the Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, or Westbrook style talent level in him. Maybe I am wrong but that is how I feel.

Anyway, if George was actually available, something like Morris, Goodwin, and two draft picks or Morris, Goodwin, and MAYBE Warren if George was legitimately 100%. Giving up the entire farm of young players and draft picks for George is asinine. Three or four assets is what I would do. That is it.



I like Len, look up all the draft and rookie impression threads.

I believe in his potential... but the key word is potential.

George is a star... Len is potentially a "good" center...

You are thinking with your heart instead of your head, but thats understandable I do the same sometimes.


I feel that I am 100% thinking with my head. I still would not trade Len for him. The Suns biggest strength right now is that they have arguably the best 1-2 center combination in the league. If you trade Len, you destroy that. Plus Len just turned 22 and him learning under Chandler could transform him into an all-star. There are lots of small forwards. The Suns already have one in Warren who looks like a legitimate scorer right now if Hornacek gives him a chance. One year of Golden State winning the title without a dominant post player does not change my mind that historically the NBA is a big man's game and the team's with the best centers win championships. Markieff, Goodwin, picks for George or Warren instead of picks. That is it. The Pacers ask for Len and I laugh them off the phone. He is a franchise center. There is not one team in basketball that would not love to have him on their team.


You're not going to get a chance to laugh them off the phone if you start the negotiations with Kieff, Goodwin, and picks, since they would have already hung up. Kieff's value is low right now, Goodwin has done nothing to show he has much value other than being young, and basing this off of the trade you proposed, I doubt you would even give up a valuable pick

Also, Len has shown nothing to indicate he is a franchise center other than being a top 5 pick in a recent draft. You're overvaluing him like crazy
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#543 » by TeamTragic » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:36 am

letsgosuns wrote:Some people have lost their minds.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/8/26/9204611/Suns-Markieff-Morris-Pacers-Paul-George-trade-scenario

The author of the article wants the Suns to trade Markieff, Len, Warren, Goodwin, the Suns 2016 first round pick, the Heat's 2021 COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED pick the Suns own, the 2016 Cavaliers first round pick the Suns own, and the Suns 2016 top-40 protected second round pick for Paul George.

Markieff
Len
Warren
Goodwin
3 first round picks
1 second round pick

So the Suns trade potentially 8 players for one guy coming off a serious injury. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. This is probably the worst trade scenario I have ever seen in my life. The Suns lose nearly every one of their young players while also trading an incredible asset in the Heat's unprotected pick. This trade idea is ridiculous.


We are clearly very bored right now. The season couldn't come faster :lol:
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#544 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:37 am

oddity wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:I feel that I am 100% thinking with my head. I still would not trade Len for him. The Suns biggest strength right now is that they have arguably the best 1-2 center combination in the league. If you trade Len, you destroy that. Plus Len just turned 22 and him learning under Chandler could transform him into an all-star. There are lots of small forwards. The Suns already have one in Warren who looks like a legitimate scorer right now if Hornacek gives him a chance. One year of Golden State winning the title without a dominant post player does not change my mind that historically the NBA is a big man's game and the team's with the best centers win championships. Markieff, Goodwin, picks for George or Warren instead of picks. That is it. The Pacers ask for Len and I laugh them off the phone. He is a franchise center. There is not one team in basketball that would not love to have him on their team.


I understand why you love Len so much right now, but when we look at potential, we have to look at what the ceiling of said potential in order to quantify it. Alex has a very high ceiling. Realistic best case scenario he's a Tyson Chandler-type w/ a jumpshot, which is an All-Star no question. With that being said, is that realistic cieling better than what Paul George is? Remember that before the injury he was a top 10 player in the NBA, and he has a very good chance of returning to full form. Not to mention he's 25 and probably hasn't completely peaked yet, because his growth spurts gradually had him moving position over his career. So if we look at Len for George I see a player who might be an All-Star if he reaches his ceiling vs a sure fire AS who's arguably better now (disregarding injury) than that ceiling.

That being said, the injury thing is a huge turnoff, but the article we were talking about has the trade mid season, and assumes PG returns to full form (which seems probable), so in that case I'd totally trade Len for him. No way in all that is sacred would I trade what Deadpoolio was suggesting, but 1upz proposal is pretty reasonable.


My main issue with trading Len is that I would want George to play with Len rather than lose Len to get George. The Suns have had a bunch of superstars for the past 50 years but not one of them was a center. Is Len gonna be a superstar center? I have no idea. But he sure as hell has the potential to be a star center and the Suns have never had one of those in franchise history. Remember when they had Hardaway and Kidd in 2000. Well Hardaway and Kidd were both better in 2000 than what George is now. Who was that team's center? Luc Longley. What did they end up doing? Get annihilated by Shaq in the playoffs. So people need to realize how rare a center like Len truly is and not give him away thinking he is easy to replace. Colangelo tried to get a guy like Len for 40 years and it never happened. DO NOT GET RID OF LEN FOR ANYTHING SHORT OF LEBRON OR DURANT.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#545 » by thamadkant » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:09 am

letsgosuns wrote:
1UPZ wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:I would not trade Len for George. You do not trade big for small. Plus George has had only one year of being a 20+ point scorer and had a devastating injury. I personally think he will still be a good player but I never considered him a superstar in the first place even prior to his injury. Maybe a rising star but I just do not see the Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, or Westbrook style talent level in him. Maybe I am wrong but that is how I feel.

Anyway, if George was actually available, something like Morris, Goodwin, and two draft picks or Morris, Goodwin, and MAYBE Warren if George was legitimately 100%. Giving up the entire farm of young players and draft picks for George is asinine. Three or four assets is what I would do. That is it.



I like Len, look up all the draft and rookie impression threads.

I believe in his potential... but the key word is potential.

George is a star... Len is potentially a "good" center...

You are thinking with your heart instead of your head, but thats understandable I do the same sometimes.


I feel that I am 100% thinking with my head. I still would not trade Len for him. The Suns biggest strength right now is that they have arguably the best 1-2 center combination in the league. If you trade Len, you destroy that. Plus Len just turned 22 and him learning under Chandler could transform him into an all-star. There are lots of small forwards. The Suns already have one in Warren who looks like a legitimate scorer right now if Hornacek gives him a chance. One year of Golden State winning the title without a dominant post player does not change my mind that historically the NBA is a big man's game and the team's with the best centers win championships. Markieff, Goodwin, picks for George or Warren instead of picks. That is it. The Pacers ask for Len and I laugh them off the phone. He is a franchise center. There is not one team in basketball that would not love to have him on their team.



With Knight, Bledsoe, Chandler and George.... other VETERAN FAs will want to come to Phoenix.

You dont see FAs clamouring to play with Len (not yet anyways, nor its guaranteed)... but with a legit star next to 3 other very very good players, McD doesnt have to do much talking luring FAs... the team structure does it.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#546 » by thamadkant » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:13 am

letsgosuns wrote:
oddity wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:I feel that I am 100% thinking with my head. I still would not trade Len for him. The Suns biggest strength right now is that they have arguably the best 1-2 center combination in the league. If you trade Len, you destroy that. Plus Len just turned 22 and him learning under Chandler could transform him into an all-star. There are lots of small forwards. The Suns already have one in Warren who looks like a legitimate scorer right now if Hornacek gives him a chance. One year of Golden State winning the title without a dominant post player does not change my mind that historically the NBA is a big man's game and the team's with the best centers win championships. Markieff, Goodwin, picks for George or Warren instead of picks. That is it. The Pacers ask for Len and I laugh them off the phone. He is a franchise center. There is not one team in basketball that would not love to have him on their team.


I understand why you love Len so much right now, but when we look at potential, we have to look at what the ceiling of said potential in order to quantify it. Alex has a very high ceiling. Realistic best case scenario he's a Tyson Chandler-type w/ a jumpshot, which is an All-Star no question. With that being said, is that realistic cieling better than what Paul George is? Remember that before the injury he was a top 10 player in the NBA, and he has a very good chance of returning to full form. Not to mention he's 25 and probably hasn't completely peaked yet, because his growth spurts gradually had him moving position over his career. So if we look at Len for George I see a player who might be an All-Star if he reaches his ceiling vs a sure fire AS who's arguably better now (disregarding injury) than that ceiling.

That being said, the injury thing is a huge turnoff, but the article we were talking about has the trade mid season, and assumes PG returns to full form (which seems probable), so in that case I'd totally trade Len for him. No way in all that is sacred would I trade what Deadpoolio was suggesting, but 1upz proposal is pretty reasonable.


My main issue with trading Len is that I would want George to play with Len rather than lose Len to get George. The Suns have had a bunch of superstars for the past 50 years but not one of them was a center. Is Len gonna be a superstar center? I have no idea. But he sure as hell has the potential to be a star center and the Suns have never had one of those in franchise history. Remember when they had Hardaway and Kidd in 2000. Well Hardaway and Kidd were both better in 2000 than what George is now. Who was that team's center? Luc Longley. What did they end up doing? Get annihilated by Shaq in the playoffs. So people need to realize how rare a center like Len truly is and not give him away thinking he is easy to replace. Colangelo tried to get a guy like Len for 40 years and it never happened. DO NOT GET RID OF LEN FOR ANYTHING SHORT OF LEBRON OR DURANT.




You are definitely talking from the heart instead of the head...

I'd trade the entire Suns team for Anthony Davis... he is the next mega-star big, best in 20 years.


For Cousins, I'd ship Len without hesitation too.


Many players I'd ship Len for.... I'd ship Len for Gobert in a heart beat too..... Len looks better offensively, but Mount Gobert is going to be league leader in rebounds, shot blocks and best interior defender in the next few seasons.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#547 » by oddity » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:14 am

letsgosuns wrote:
Spoiler:
oddity wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:I feel that I am 100% thinking with my head. I still would not trade Len for him. The Suns biggest strength right now is that they have arguably the best 1-2 center combination in the league. If you trade Len, you destroy that. Plus Len just turned 22 and him learning under Chandler could transform him into an all-star. There are lots of small forwards. The Suns already have one in Warren who looks like a legitimate scorer right now if Hornacek gives him a chance. One year of Golden State winning the title without a dominant post player does not change my mind that historically the NBA is a big man's game and the team's with the best centers win championships. Markieff, Goodwin, picks for George or Warren instead of picks. That is it. The Pacers ask for Len and I laugh them off the phone. He is a franchise center. There is not one team in basketball that would not love to have him on their team.


I understand why you love Len so much right now, but when we look at potential, we have to look at what the ceiling of said potential in order to quantify it. Alex has a very high ceiling. Realistic best case scenario he's a Tyson Chandler-type w/ a jumpshot, which is an All-Star no question. With that being said, is that realistic cieling better than what Paul George is? Remember that before the injury he was a top 10 player in the NBA, and he has a very good chance of returning to full form. Not to mention he's 25 and probably hasn't completely peaked yet, because his growth spurts gradually had him moving position over his career. So if we look at Len for George I see a player who might be an All-Star if he reaches his ceiling vs a sure fire AS who's arguably better now (disregarding injury) than that ceiling.

That being said, the injury thing is a huge turnoff, but the article we were talking about has the trade mid season, and assumes PG returns to full form (which seems probable), so in that case I'd totally trade Len for him. No way in all that is sacred would I trade what Deadpoolio was suggesting, but 1upz proposal is pretty reasonable.

My main issue with trading Len is that I would want George to play with Len rather than lose Len to get George. The Suns have had a bunch of superstars for the past 50 years but not one of them was a center. Is Len gonna be a superstar center? I have no idea. But he sure as hell has the potential to be a star center and the Suns have never had one of those in franchise history. Remember when they had Hardaway and Kidd in 2000. Well Hardaway and Kidd were both better in 2000 than what George is now. Who was that team's center? Luc Longley. What did they end up doing? Get annihilated by Shaq in the playoffs. So people need to realize how rare a center like Len truly is and not give him away thinking he is easy to replace. Colangelo tried to get a guy like Len for 40 years and it never happened. DO NOT GET RID OF LEN FOR ANYTHING SHORT OF LEBRON OR DURANT.


While it would be really nice to keep Len, if I had to choose I would easily go with PG. The reason is that you're closer to winning a championship w the lineup we have minus Len, Kieff (who wasn't doing anything anyway), and say PJ or Archie if one is included in the trade, and +PG. Good centers are rare indeed, but we're lucky to have 2 (although one is aging). A halfway decent center is easier to find than a star, and we have enough spare pieces to find/sign a worse but still serviceable replacement for Len within the time frame we would have to contend. And we would contend w/ PG. Adding him shoves us into the rodeo that is the playoffs in the West. Look at it this way. Alex's role right now is as a backup, and maaayyyyybe a semi-star center in a couple of years, but PG's role is the go to guy for years to come. I love Len but if the team gets better through a trade involving him, I do it.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#548 » by thamadkant » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:17 am

In any case, Suns have a better chance on getting Cousins than Paul George...

Pacers FO, coach loves George....
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#549 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:27 am

That PG trade had to be made by Qwigglez lol
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#550 » by NTB » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:43 am

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziJAzRE6gdc[/youtube]

Very nice video scooper.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#551 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:07 am

NTB wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziJAzRE6gdc[/youtube]

Very nice video scooper.


Watching that video, I keep trying to think of a championship backcourt that I can compare Bledsoe and Knight to. The only one I can think of is Thomas and Dumars (which some posters mentioned a while back) because of the height similarity. But Bledsoe and Knight have never proven to be anywhere near the talent level of those two players. A more realistic backcourt outside of height that maybe I can compare it to is another Pistons backcourt. The one with Billups and Hamilton. I picture Bledsoe as more of a Billups style guard rather than Thomas and Knight closer to Hamilton rather than Dumars. But the problem remains that the Suns backcourt is small. And unless Knight is willing to play a more traditional style shooting guard role, I think the Suns might have similar problems to last year with too many point guards and only one ball.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#552 » by nevetsov » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:13 am

letsgosuns wrote:Watching that video, I keep trying to think of a championship backcourt that I can compare Bledsoe and Knight to.


Not championship, but for comparisons sake, how about Kidd (Bledsoe) & KJ (Knight)?
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#553 » by plonden » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:33 am

Another camp signing:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/EricPincus/status/636732894392684544[/tweet]
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#554 » by batsmasher » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:39 am

plonden wrote:Another camp signing:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/EricPincus/status/636732894392684544[/tweet]


6'1" PG with insane athleticism? Checks out.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#555 » by Qwigglez » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:26 am

ginobiliflops wrote:That PG trade had to be made by Qwigglez lol


:lol: :rofl:
What's funny is as I was reading it, I was thinking to myself, I'm pretty sure I made up a very similar trade not even a month ago. I was gonna check my older posts, but decided against it.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#556 » by letsgosuns » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:30 am

nevetsov wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:Watching that video, I keep trying to think of a championship backcourt that I can compare Bledsoe and Knight to.


Not championship, but for comparisons sake, how about Kidd (Bledsoe) & KJ (Knight)?


By the time KJ played with Kidd, he was way past his prime. But still I do not put Bledsoe anywhere near Kidd in his prime and I do not put Knight anywhere near KJ in his prime. Kidd and KJ are two of the best point guards in NBA history. Most people would not even put Bledsoe and/or Knight in the the top ten of today's NBA. I do not see Bledsoe or Knight having hall of fame potential either, although I hope I am wrong, because that would be amazing if one or both of them turned into hall of fame caliber players.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#557 » by tdjm » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:41 am

I think we've been in the calm before the storm of a Markieff trade. I'm going to bet that the fireworks are coming soon, within the next week or two now. In a few days, the last of the recently inked rookie contracts will become available for trade (last ones become trade eligible Aug. 29th as far as I know), giving the most theoretical options until mid-December when the newly signed free agents become available.

It seems fishy that after one article of pure, unadulterated hate for the front office, that it all died down and fell out of the media. There's no way that actually happened, it's got to be still festering given how the Morri conduct business. I'm still grateful for the reprieve, it's nice to be out of the limelight and it's nice to not have to watch the Keef stock tank further right before my eyes. I'm curious to see who throws the first petty barb after the trades - Morris or McDonough. Bet it gets ugly.

I'm annoyed that we're probably going to end up trading him, since it robs us of the chance to include him as the first or second big asset in a better trade down the line. In fact, this is what annoys me the most about it - the fact that the front office has been vocal about wanting to parlay their existing assets into better ones down the line, but they keep having these assets (IT, Keef) exit early before they get the chance to do something advanced with them due to factors largely within their control. Still, at this point I'm less frustrated with the front office and more excited with the prospect of getting new toys in return. I feel like a kid at Christmas. I hope our new toys include either draft picks or young upside PFs, I really don't want a stopgap. No Taj or Channing, please. We already have Teletovic as a 1 year vet placeholder, no need to add another.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#558 » by Mulhollanddrive » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:23 am

Bledsoe, Knight, George, Ilyasova, Chandler
Barbosa, Booker, Warren, Teletovic, Len

Who would say no to that.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#559 » by Frank Lee » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:02 am

Larry Bird and StanVG for starters.
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Re: Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer 

Post#560 » by thamadkant » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:06 am

I've been looking at Marcus Smart's stats and Goodwin compares well, actually better than Smart, if you go by games where both played 15+ minutes.

The Celtic fans enjoy Smart and value him highly, yet a lot of Suns fans are 50/50 on Goodwin.

Well I hope McD sees the numbers (which I'm sure he does) and continue to develop Goodwin.

It's not Goodwin OR Booker, as both have very different skills. One is a slasher the other is a shooter.





In regards to Suns backcourt, I simply think it's too small to work against the big guards out west who can handle and shoot.

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