The Star: Where does Josh Donaldson's season rank in Blue Jays

[suntzuballin]

If wins mvp he be only 2nd player since George Bell,so if he players for jays for few years with some what same numbers,he be over delgado at least.

[Lateral Quicks]

Barfield's 1986 deserves more appreciation. Like Donaldson, he was outstanding offensively and defensively.

By the end of this year I expect Donaldson's 2015 will be the undisputed champ.

[Hoopstarr]

Barfield's 1986 deserves more appreciation. Like Donaldson, he was outstanding offensively and defensively.

By the end of this year I expect Donaldson's 2015 will be the undisputed champ.

Also John Olerud in 93, when even Cito couldn't hold him back.

[Hoopstarr]

Trammell should've won the MVP that year. That was a pretty HR/RBI inflated MVP vote. Though, such were the times.

**EDIT-- sorry, I know the OP is ranking against JAYS seasons, so it IS great (well, it's great regardless)... I've just always hated that Trammell got robbed that year, even though I bleed Blue and White. But I was off-topic with my correction. You were right-- Bell's season IS very impressive.

Trammell wasn't even the best left infielder that year. Boggs should've been MVP.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=1987&month=0&season1=1987&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

It was close but you don't give the Award to the guy on the 4th place team in the division over the guy who played on the top team in the entire league.

Trammell should have won in a walk but it was the era where RBI totals trumped everything else.

You mean Trammell in a walk by the "best player from the best team" adage or your opinion? Because Boggs was clearly better.

[Kurtz]

Carlos' rookie card. The man was born a tank, no juice needed.

So he couldn't have used PEDs in the minors before he was a MLB rookie? That's not exactly an uncommon phenomenon.

It's a very uncommon phenomenon. To accuse Delgado of using steroids in the minors, you'd have to do better I think.

[Kurtz]

You're forgetting a key factor. Drugs and plenty of 'em.

Probably half of the stars in 2000 were hitting the juice hard, which lead to the inflated numbers during that year. Meanwhile, Carlos played clean.

Imo, Delgado 2000 tops the list, Bautista is 2nd by a hair, and if he keeps it up, Donaldson can finish as #1 due to his spectacular defense on top of his spectacular offense.

#1: There's far more than PEDs that accounted for the inflated numbers in those days (smaller strikezones, smaller/more HR friendly ballparks, livier baseballs, the expansion era, no defensive shifts, etc.).
#2. We have no idea whether Delgado was clean (or anyone else for that matter), so I don't quite get basing anything on that assumption.
#3. Based on the numbers adjusting for league/era (which is really all we have to go on), Bautista's season was superior and the best offensive season in Jays history. That takes nothing away from Delgado (who might just be my favourite Jay ever), but Bautista was incredible in 2011.

1. It's mainly PEDs. The other factors are marginal (smaller strike zone? is there proof of this?)
2. There's been 0 evidence that Delgado was dirty, so I'm going to go ahead and say that he was clean.
3. Bautista was absolutely incredible in 2011 but so was Delgado 2000. Again, Bautista competed in a juiceless environment, whereas Delgado had to compete against steroid freaks like Giambi, which reduced the relative impact of his numbers.

[Randle McMurphy]

It's a very uncommon phenomenon.

Talk about naivety. Do you think all PED users just start taking them in the bigs once they start making real money?

PED use has been rampant in the minors for decades and decades. With the major salary increase that comes with the jump to the majors, minor leaguers are highly incentivized to do so.

To accuse Delgado of using steroids in the minors, you'd have to do better I think.

I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm saying a picture of Delgado as a MLB rookie isn't proof that he didn't use PEDs at any point prior to that. It's not exactly proof of anything at all for that matter.

[Randle McMurphy]

1. It's mainly PEDs. The other factors are marginal (smaller strike zone? is there proof of this?)

There's been plenty written on all of those factors playing a significant role. And yes, the called strike zone has increased significantly.

2. There's been 0 evidence that Delgado was dirty, so I'm going to go ahead and say that he was clean.

You can say exactly the opposite (that there's been zero evidence that he was clean...hell there weren't even drug tests in 2000) and it would be just as true. We just don't know.

3. Bautista was absolutely incredible in 2011 but so was Delgado 2000. Again, Bautista competed in a juiceless environment, whereas Delgado had to compete against steroid freaks like Giambi, which reduced the relative impact of his numbers.

#1. This isn't a juiceless environment. A PED ring (Biogenesis) involving guys like ARod, Braun, Nelson Cruz, and Melky Cabrera (and many others) was found only a few years ago. Just like BALCO before it, I think it's pretty safe to say that those guys were only the tip of the iceberg.

#2. Bautista was better statistically against his respective competition than Delgado was. And considering we don't know who took PEDs (whether it be Delgado, Bautista, or anybody else in baseball), we only have the numbers to go on.

[The_Hater]

Trammell wasn't even the best left infielder that year. Boggs should've been MVP.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=1987&month=0&season1=1987&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

It was close but you don't give the Award to the guy on the 4th place team in the division over the guy who played on the top team in the entire league.

Trammell should have won in a walk but it was the era where RBI totals trumped everything else.

You mean Trammell in a walk by the "best player from the best team" adage or your opinion? Because Boggs was clearly better.

Explain what do you mean by clearly better? In terms of WAR they were almost a dead heat. What stats are you using that I may have missed?

If you're also saying the team success shouldn't matter in MVP voting that's fine but a huge majority of people almost certainly disagree and voters obviously use it to weigh their decisions.

[Hoopstarr]

Boggs vs Trammell 1987

WAR: 8.9-7.7
wRC+: 171-152
wOBA: .443-.407

[UN-Owen]

It's pretty naive to think Delgado "played clean"

Carlos' rookie card. The man was born a tank, no juice needed.

McGwire hit 49 HR as a rookie:




Canseco hit 33 HR as a rookie:

[The_Hater]

Boggs vs Trammell 1987

WAR: 8.9-7.7
wRC+: 171-152
wOBA: .443-.407

Hmm. This link, also in the thread has WAR almost a dead heat. 8.3 to 8.2.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1987.shtml

Obviously your link does look accurate but I was looking at the baseball reference one. Not sure why they're so different.

[BigLeagueChew]

fwar and rwar are calculated a bit differently. fwar uses UZR and rwar uses range factor. Now with Boggs vs Tramell ...UZR wasn't around in '87 so it could be the wrc+ and woba numbers that set them apart.