Is Kieff dogging it?

[bwgood77]

Sorry, but your GM can't play it "smart" in this situation. If Kieff is demanding a trade, the general conception would be that he would holdout or not play until traded. If so, waiting 6-12 months does nothing but lower his value further. Sorry, whether you can except it or not the Suns aren't going to get nearly what Kieff is worth in value, you just have to accept that.

Do you think Kieff will go that far to put his career at risk? As i posted once before, in that process he will get hurt far more than the Suns. For the Suns, it would be just like every other dead weight contract in the league, which the team can absolutely live with. For the Kieff, it's his one and only career at stake. Suns have all the leverage here.

The Suns really don't have any leverage. Morris is the one demanding things not the Suns. You can't pick his value back up by not trading him...

Suns have all the leverage. When you have a player under contract for four years, the player doesn't have any leverage. He could refuse to play but that's not going to help his career. And that's not really even leverage anyway.

[jcsunsfan]

I can see why the Suns would hold off trading him. For all the personality issues, Kieff, playing in his right mind, would be a benefit to this team. There is no reason why they need to let him dictate the circumstances going forward. He is locked into a long term contract.

1. He does not nearly have the influence in the locker room that he did last year. His brother has been traded. Tyson Chandler and Sonny Weems have been added, both of whom have been lockerroom leaders on their previous teams. Bledsoe and Knight seem to be stepping up in leadership, and all the others have seen Kieff get his wings clipped.

2. Kieff not talking would be a welcome change. Turn that threat into a promise and we will all be better off--that is as long as the media doesn't turn it into a drama. All Jeff and McD have to say is something like "I kind of like quiet Kieff. It suits him."

3. I just cannot see him "tanking" on the court. He will lose playing time, which all players want, no matter what their contract status is. When you are competitor and you get on the court, it just comes out. You can't help it.

4. They can still trade him any time they want. I am not advocating keeping Kieff, just not worrying about keeping Kieff as if it would be some horrible thing. If the right deal comes along, take it. Otherwise, make him play.

[oddity]

I think if we decide to hold off on a trade for now TJ Warren can play a lot of PF to fill in for us. His game seems pretty compatible with the 4 because of his inside scoring; he's already proving to be able to finish amongst taller players, and although he's not posting anybody up he could be a major face up threat with his superior speed. This is especially true if his shot improves some more. The biggest issue would be defense, of course, where his height and weight disadvantage would make him easy prey on the block. It's obviously not his natural position but last season he already logged something like a third of his minutes (forgot where I got the number sorry) at PF, so I can definitely see him play more without our starter taking up those precious minutes. And speaking of minutes, that would actually open up the roster a bit more. Weems moves to backup 3, Booker at 2, and, *gulp* either Archie or Price at backup point guard (kill me.)

[ATTL]

Tj was bullied at the 4 this summer, I can see it work in certain matchups but very limited. He would need to pack on PJ -like mass to make it work.

[oddity]

I agree, but with more and more teams playing small and getting a reliable rim protector in Chandler, I can only see his time there going up.

Also, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1404381#start_here

[tdjm]

Tj was bullied at the 4 this summer, I can see it work in certain matchups but very limited. He would need to pack on PJ -like mass to make it work.

This is the biggest reason why TJ at the 4 is never going to work for long stretches. A big reason he made the jump from good player to jaw dropping scorer in his sophomore season (besides the increase in usage rate) was because he lost a solid 10 lbs and it unlocked his athleticism (230 -> 220).

Everything about TJ screams to play him on the wing. Defensively, he plays like a wing. He's not long, but he does neat stuff defending on the perimeter. He knows how to use his feet, his hands, and his great size to his advantage (and his athleticism was majorly underrated pre draft - it's not elite, but its good enough that combined with his awesome footwork he can keep up). He's a poor rebounder, and he doesn't really have any inclination to go after d-boards, so yet another reason to keep him away from the PF slot.

On offense, he plays like a wing. He could easily have a long and fruitful career overpowering smaller wings (Jimmy Butler style).

Marcus Morris spent the first portion of his career miscast as a power forward and came very close to busting, but he played like a wing on offense and defense, plus he rebounded like a wing. Logically, he was much better when played at the wing. I hope they don't make the same mistake with TJ, although in small stretches having the option to run him at the 4 and smallball blitz people is definitely reasonable. Just don't make a habit of it.

[oddity]

Again, I agree that most of his game is suited for the wing. His speed, though, is what would allow him to thrive as a small ball 4 offensively. One of Warren's best assets is his speed for the height he has and the height that he plays. At a legit 6'8 he has the height to play both forward positions, and his fluid athleticism and improving fundamentals allow him to keep up with most 3s on D. But his speed coupled with the insane inside scoring proficiency can be a nightmare mismatch on the offensive end.

Totally agree it would be bad on defense, but I don't remember him getting as eaten up inside during sl as you described. I remember a few plays where he poked his man's balls loose (sorry had to) down there on the low block. It was all rainbows then.

[Damkac]

I prefer to play Tucker as PF than Warren. He should only play SF.

[tdjm]

Agreed on not playing PF, but instead of only playing SF I'd actually like to see Warren play some developmental minutes at 2 guard to answer the questions of 1. can he overpower other 2 guards to score (like, for example, Jimmy Butler) and 2. can he defend them. In limited minutes against other 2's last year after the all star break, the answer to both was a promising, tentative "yes" - if Warren can guard 2s, then that opens so much versatility with switching and stuff like that, so it's more to satisfy curiosity than an actual necessity.

I've been critical of Tucker at PF before since people vastly overrate him and his abilities , but at this point - why not? Keef's gone 99 times out of a hundred, I don't want them to feel pressured to get a weak stopgap (I want them to trade for the best combination of assets they can get, and if it doesn't include a PF, then fine). Let's say Mirza can give you 20 minutes a game, exclusively at PF. That's about what he could proffer up in the 2013-2014 season where he was decent. That leaves 28 minutes. Instead of getting some bench-quality puke like Taj Gibson or Channing Frye, stick Tucker there for 12 minutes. Stick Len there for 8. Maybe go hypersmall for those last 8, or play some Leuer - who knows? It's not like any of these options are VASTLY worse than putting in some replacement level veteran body. Suns are going to have a huge gaping hole there again this year after the Keef debacle, but it's not like you can replace him with an all star at the position right now. Might as well just embrace it instead of panicking about it, even if it's not great.

[NavLDO]

Agreed on not playing PF, but instead of only playing SF I'd actually like to see Warren play some developmental minutes at 2 guard to answer the questions of 1. can he overpower other 2 guards to score (like, for example, Jimmy Butler) and 2. can he defend them. In limited minutes against other 2's last year after the all star break, the answer to both was a promising, tentative "yes" - if Warren can guard 2s, then that opens so much versatility with switching and stuff like that, so it's more to satisfy curiosity than an actual necessity.

I've been critical of Tucker at PF before since people vastly overrate him and his abilities , but at this point - why not? Keef's gone 99 times out of a hundred, I don't want them to feel pressured to get a weak stopgap (I want them to trade for the best combination of assets they can get, and if it doesn't include a PF, then fine). Let's say Mirza can give you 20 minutes a game, exclusively at PF. That's about what he could proffer up in the 2013-2014 season where he was decent. That leaves 28 minutes. Instead of getting some bench-quality puke like Taj Gibson or Channing Frye, stick Tucker there for 12 minutes. Stick Len there for 8. Maybe go hypersmall for those last 8, or play some Leuer - who knows? It's not like any of these options are VASTLY worse than putting in some replacement level veteran body. Suns are going to have a huge gaping hole there again this year after the Keef debacle, but it's not like you can replace him with an all star at the position right now. Might as well just embrace it instead of panicking about it, even if it's not great.

Surprisingly, Warren is only a 1/2" 'shorter' in Wingspan than Kieff, but I agree, his skillset is better suited at the 2 than 4. But Tucker is actually 'longer' by a couple of inches in Wingspan, and has proven to be a better defender than Kieff anyway, so I wouldn't 'cry' if Tucker ends up playing more PF if Kieff leaves.

[Mr Puddles]

PJ was backup power forward works - he can easily cover backup power forwards while helping to space the floor. However as a starter he's going to struggle against the Blake Griffins and Boogies in the NBA.

I really like a 'bench' unit of:

Knight
Booker
Warren
Tucker
Len

Scoring, spacing, rebounding and defense

[Damkac]

Who on our squad will not struggle against Griffin or Boogie?

Mayby we should try using twin towers against them? Anyone know if Chandler was ever used to guard PFs and how he can deal with them?

[Mr Puddles]

Who on our squad will not struggle against Griffin or Boogie?

Mayby we should try using twin towers against them? Anyone know if Chandler was ever used to guard PFs and how he can deal with them?

All of our guys would struggle against boogie/griffin, the reason we put PJ on them last season is because our other power forwards are ill equipped to defend bigger/stronger players. Using PJ to defend PFs was out of necessity, and should not be not a long term solution (except for against back up PFs) which is what I meant with my post.

Chandler has in the past defended PFs so a Chanlder/Len lineup against, e.g., the Clippers would be possible. The problem is that Chandler is a great help defender and using him to cover power forwards would draw him away from the basket and negate some of his strengths.

[aewyatt7]

Pelton suggests that the Boston Celtics send Jared Sullinger, Perry Jones, and James Young to the Suns in exchange for Morris. Everyone would win with this deal — the Boston Celtics get Morris, the Phoenix Suns get a few talented players, and Morris goes to a playoff contender.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2376295/boston-celtics-rumors-markieff-morris-may-be-headed-to-the-celtics/#PrDHqE4JUULygzuA.99

[NavLDO]

Pelton suggests that the Boston Celtics send Jared Sullinger, Perry Jones, and James Young to the Suns in exchange for Morris. Everyone would win with this deal — the Boston Celtics get Morris, the Phoenix Suns get a few talented players, and Morris goes to a playoff contender.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2376295/boston-celtics-rumors-markieff-morris-may-be-headed-to-the-celtics/#PrDHqE4JUULygzuA.99

If we could get that haul for Markieff, I think we'd have to consider ourselves 'fortunate' and move on from there. I personally like Sullinger as a development project, but I don't discount his medical and weight issues--they are worrisome. Perry Jones is simply 'meh', and James Young, TBH, would just add a body to our already deep SG/SF position.

Ainge isn't in the business of losing assets, so I think we'd need to add Goodwin, which would work salary-wise:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=obhzwhq

And gives us +1 win, and Boston -1 win. As well, swapping out Goodwin for Young would keep our depth at the position 'at bay', so overall, we'd only 'net' us a SF. So, Sims or Jefferson would have to not be on the roster, as that takes us over 15 players.

Bledsoe/Price
Knight/Young/Booker
Warren/Tucker/Weems/Jones
Sullinger/Teletovic/Leuer/Jefferson
Chandler/Len/Sims

[NTB]

Sullinger is in last year of his contract btw.

[oddity]

A worrisome aspect of getting Sully is that we're gonna have to sign him, and he'll probably ask for more money than we're giving Keef. Personally I don't know if it's even worth it for a player that probably won't fit in our fast-paced system w his conditioning and whatnot

[jcsunsfan]

I think what we are going to do is just keep Kieff and make him play. Let him get over it. That is unless we get an opportunity for a blockbuster type of deal for a star player. In that deal, Kieff would NOT be the centerpiece coming from our side.

[Cutter]

If Kieff was smart he would be thinking already about his next contract. He is just beginning a 4 year contract and will be about 30 when it ends. If he is a good citizen, maximizes his efforts on the court and becomes a team first player, I can see him getting offered a second multi year deal for several million. OR, he continues to childishly follow the #FOE Inc. mantra and pretend he and Marcus are still trying to survive back in the Philly ghetto where they were raised. If he chooses this path he will be out of the league at the end of this contract.

I am hoping the smarter Kieff slowly gains the upper hand over #FOE Kieff. Which personality wins?

[Saberestar]

I think what we are going to do is just keep Kieff and make him play. Let him get over it. That is unless we get an opportunity for a blockbuster type of deal for a star player. In that deal, Kieff would NOT be the centerpiece coming from our side.

This situation has happened in the NBA a lot of times. When a player ask for a trade , he is traded.Period. Sooner or later, but always the result is the same. A few exceptions have happened, like Kobe in 2006, but we are speaking here about a rare exception because he was the top player in the league at that point.

Right now, our FO are doing their due diligence to make the best possible trade. That is all, they want some leverage and saying that they are going to ignore his trade request is that leverage. No way Markieff changes his mind ( he is not smat) and no way we jeopardize our entire team chemistry for a non All Star player.