OT: TMZ - Rose being sued/accused of drugging and gang raping former GF

[DuckIII]

Not so rare for wealthy athletes who are targets for this sort of thing.. like chifan said, women are always trying to get pregnant or married to these guys just for money... why not rape? It's an easy game and they have a really good chance of getting paid money just to go away.

Not rare? based on what? Other than Kobe (who wasn't 'falsely' accused), which other athlete was accused of rape?

First, you are assuming formal public charges. I suspect Johnny is referring to women who quietly make the assertion and seek a settlement before making it public. Once the charge is made public, a lot of leverage is lost for settlement.

Second, I can think of a few just off the top of my head: Mike Tyson, Darren Sharper, Ruben Patterson, Josh McNary, Ben Rothlesberger, Mark Chmura, Derrick Rose, the Duke Lacrosse Team, Jameis Winston. I'm sure there a lot, lot, lot more.

[Red Larrivee]

Not raping women is also some good advice. It's extremely rare to be a non-rapist and get accused of rape.

For the average Joe, sure. For a celebrity? Different story.

Not really. How many celebrities were accused of rape?

Off the top of my head:

Tyson
Kobe
Chris Brown
Cosby
Cee-Lo
R.Kelly
Jameis Winston
Sheen
Woody Allen
2Pac
Big Ben
Sean Penn

I'm sure there's a lot more.

[johnnyvann840]

Friend: Ooh girl, I heard you had sex with Derrick last night
Side Chick: no I didn't, I don't remember
Friend: That's just the word on the street
Side Chick: I didn't have sex with anyone. I passed out in my bed
Friend: Girl....were you...raped?
Side chick: no, I wasn't because I didn't have sex.
Friend: Mhmmm, so then what's these 13 empty condom wrappers doing here?
Side Chick: o-m-g

That's how it begins.

I explained the John Doe thing earlier. She is not alleging that 13 guys raped her. Naming additional John Does is just a procedural safeguard to avoid statute of limitations issues later if another claim can be asserted against another individual based on what comes out in discovery. For example, say a 4th person who wasn't involved in the alleged rape is identified as having drugged her drink.

I see. Thanks. Nice to have a lawyer on the board.

[TimRobbins]

First, you are assuming formal public charges. I suspect Johnny is referring to women who quietly make the assertion and seek a settlement before making it public. Once the charge is made public, a lot of leverage is lost for settlement.

Second, I can think of a few just off the top of my head: Mike Tyson, Darren Sharper, Ruben Patterson, Josh McNary, Ben Rothlesberger, Mark Chmura, Derrick Rose, the Duke Lacrosse Team, Jameis Winston. I'm sure there a lot, lot, lot more.

Do you know of any cases which were settled privately? If we have no idea of the magnitude, it's kind of meaningless to talk about it as a wide-spread phenomenon.

So, out of thousands of players who have played in the NBA during the past decade, we have 3 players (Rubben Patterson, Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose) who were accused of rape.

Rubben Patterson admitted to the charges and served jail time. Kobe Bryant settled the case and avoided jailed time, but admitted the sex wasn't consensual, and now we have Derrick Rose.

I'd say those who are claiming NBA players routinely get (falsely) accused of rape are sitting on some pretty thin evidence. If Derrick Rose is falsely accused, he is the first NBA player I have heard of to be falsely accused.

[Keller61]

I think it comes down to this: the woman is less physically able to put a stop to the encounter, but the man should not be less able to recognize a rape as it's happening, if indeed the woman is objecting.

It's a really good point.. in my example, I could have easily physically stopped this girl... but I gave in even though I wasn't feeling well. If it were the other way around, she could probably not stop me, or any man physically. Truth is I loved the girl and it wound up being decent and I felt better for a few minutes and actually think I sweat out my fever and felt better the next day. She was sick as a dog on the flight home and I remember even joking about it.. "see, that's what you get for raping a sick old man in a hotel room".. lol. She was barely half my age at the time and it was more of a drunk horny girl giving me the "come on you're not that sick, you're just old and tired... get up and f*** me you old party pooper" kind of thing. But, yeah, technically, by law, I could have been a jerk and pressed charges and probably gotten her convicted of rape based on the law.

That might technically be rape, but I have a hard time thinking of it that way because it didn't really cause you any distress (of course, you could lie and say that it did). It sounds no worse than if she had made you dance with her when you were feeling sick.

[TimRobbins]

Off the top of my head:

Tyson
Kobe
Chris Brown
Cosby
Cee-Lo
R.Kelly
Jameis Winston
Sheen
Woody Allen
2Pac
Big Ben
Sean Penn

I'm sure there's a lot more.

That's a pretty short list. How many were 'falsely' accused?

[johnnyvann840]

That's a pretty short list. How many were 'falsely' accused?

Probably not Sean Penn. I remember that ish.

[DuckIII]

Do you know of any cases which were settled privately? If we have no idea of the magnitude, it's kind of meaningless to talk about it as a wide-spread phenomenon.

Obviously I do not. Hence them being private and confidential. But its hardly a secret it happens. Indeed, in Tiger Woods' case - in which he was never even accused by anyone of anything but having consensual affairs - it is known that he settled with a number of women who threatened to come forward. We just don't know who, how many, or in what amounts. But denying that this happens seems silly.

So, out of thousands of players who have played in the NBA during the past decade, we have 3 players (Rubben Patterson, Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose) who were accused of rape.

You asked who else, and I have you names off the top of my head. But yes, obviously the percentage of professional athletes who formally and publicly have rape allegations leveled against them is going to be low. I'm not sure what your point is.

Rubben Patterson admitted to the charges and served jail time. Kobe Bryant settled the case and avoided jailed time, but admitted the sex wasn't consensual, and now we have Derrick Rose.

I've tried to avoid getting into it with you about Kobe, but you need to stop saying he admitted the sex wasn't consensual. He did no such thing. His public statement was very carefully crafted to avoid that.

I'd say those who are claiming NBA players routinely get (falsely) accused of rape are sitting on some pretty thin evidence. If Derrick Rose is falsely accused, he is the first NBA player I have heard of to be falsely accused.

Limiting it to NBA players is disingenuous. The notion is that wealthy, successful and famous people are targets for he said she said accusations. They are. Why debate it?

That said, none of what I'm saying here should be interpreted as taking a position that Rose is being falsely accused. I have no idea if he did it or not. And I've always considered his image to be a fabrication even when he still had a good image. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. But whether he did or didn't has no bearing on the obvious truth that famous, wealthy people are targets for "blackmail" of this variety.

[Red Larrivee]

Off the top of my head:

Tyson
Kobe
Chris Brown
Cosby
Cee-Lo
R.Kelly
Jameis Winston
Sheen
Woody Allen
2Pac
Big Ben
Sean Penn

I'm sure there's a lot more.

That's a pretty short list. How many were 'falsely' accused?

There's a lot more, but those are the ones I remember right now. In depth searching would produce much more names: Darren Sharper, Sean Kingston, Big Sean, Brian "Birdman" Williams, Mystikal, Snoop Dogg, Nick Young, Michael Beasley...there are a ton.

I don't know what more you need. Celebrities are the easiest target of it and it is a regular occurrence. Clearly, some are actually guilty.

The point is that any celebrity who has sex with a woman who may or may not have become insanely intoxicated and/or drugged at their home or at some type of gathering with them, can easily get a sexual assault allegation if the woman does not remember a thing.

[mj234eva]

That might technically be rape, but I have a hard time thinking of it that way because it didn't really cause you any distress (of course, you could lie and say that it did). It sounds no worse than if she had made you dance with her when you were feeling sick.

A person can be traumatized by an experience that is not criminal, and be unaffected by an experience that is.

[Shill]

Not so rare for wealthy athletes who are targets for this sort of thing.. like chifan said, women are always trying to get pregnant or married to these guys just for money... why not rape? It's an easy game and they have a really good chance of getting paid money just to go away.

Not rare? based on what? Other than Kobe (who wasn't 'falsely' accused), which other athlete was accused of rape?

First, you are assuming formal public charges. I suspect Johnny is referring to women who quietly make the assertion and seek a settlement before making it public. Once the charge is made public, a lot of leverage is lost for settlement.

Second, I can think of a few just off the top of my head: Mike Tyson, Darren Sharper, Ruben Patterson, Josh McNary, Ben Rothlesberger, Mark Chmura, Derrick Rose, the Duke Lacrosse Team, Jameis Winston. I'm sure there a lot, lot, lot more.

Erik Williams and Michael Irvin were falsely accused of rape in the mid-90s. Irvin wasn't even there, and there was video that proved the sex was consensual. The accuser ended up going to jail.

[GetBuLLish]

The discussion about consent and sex, while definitely an interesting topic, is simply not relevant to this case.

This lady is alleging that rose and his friends drugged her, drove thirty minutes to her home, intruded into her apartment, and then viciously gang raped her and ran away.

There's no question about consent or anything like that. They either did this to her or not.

A discussion about intoxication and consent would be more relevant to, say, the Patrick Kane situation.

[TimRobbins]

Obviously I do not. Hence them being private and confidential. But its hardly a secret it happens. Indeed, in Tiger Woods' case - in which he was never even accused by anyone of anything but having consensual affairs - it is known that he settled with a number of women who threatened to come forward. We just don't know who, how many, or in what amounts. But denying that this happens seems silly.

Of course it happens. It happens with "regular" people as well, but to the best of my knowledge, it's extremely rare. Do you know otherwise?

You asked who else, and I have you names off the top of my head. But yes, obviously the percentage of professional athletes who formally and publicly have rape allegations leveled against them is going to be low. I'm not sure what your point is.

My point very simple - unlike some have claimed here, rape accusations are EXTREMELY rare. Maybe 1/1000 NBA players gets accused of rape. I have yet to hear of an NBA player falsely accused of rape. Unfortunately, Derrick Rose is part of that statistic.

I've tried to avoid getting into it with you about Kobe, but you need to stop saying he admitted the sex wasn't consensual. He did no such thing. His public statement was very carefully crafted to avoid that.

Kobe's statement was very carefully worded. Without getting in the nuances of the statement (and the case), I think we can both agree that Kobe was not "falsely accused".

Limiting it to NBA players is disingenuous. The notion is that wealthy, successful and famous people are targets for he said she said accusations. They are. Why debate it?

I'm limiting it to NBA players since I'm more familiar with the NBA than I am with any other sport and/or the general celebrity population. I can't see what's disingenuous about it. Why are NBA players a non-representative sample?

Non-successful people are targets of the same accusations. Do you have any evidence to suggest rich/famous people get accused of rape more often than poor people? In my (non-informed) opinion, it's the other way around.

That said, none of what I'm saying here should be interpreted as taking a position that Rose is being falsely accused. I have no idea if he did it or not. And I've always considered his image to be a fabrication even when he still had a good image. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. But whether he did or didn't has no bearing on the obvious truth that famous, wealthy people are targets for "blackmail" of this variety.

I'm not taking any position other than to say rape accusations are extremely rare, and false rape accusations are nearly non-existent.

As for your claim that famous/wealthy people are targets of false rape accusations, I have never seen any evidence to support that claim. Not empirical evidence and not even anecdotal evidence. How many cases can you remember of a rich/wealthy person being falsely accused of rape? I can't remember even one.

[mj234eva]

Brian Banks (This guy wasn't even rich!)

This former Atlanta Falcons linebacker didn’t have an easy ride to the NFL. In 2002, when Banks was only 17 years old, one of his high school classmates came forward, saying that while they were in school together, Banks dragged her into a stairwell and raped her. Banks served five years in prison and another five on probation before he was able to meet up with the accuser, while he was secretly taped with a microphone – she admitted that she fabricated the rape story, and he got her confession on tape. Only in 2012 was Banks’ conviction overturned.

Before he was accused of rape, Banks had received a scholarship to go to the University of South Carolina for football. He had to miss the opportunity because he was sent to prison, but when he got out, he managed to make it to the NFL. Banks said of his hardships, “I feel like what I’ve been through these past 10 years shows that I have a determination factor of not giving up, of keeping hope in whatever it is that you want to accomplish in life that you can.”

Tucker Carlson

A political commentator who has worked for CNN, Fox News and MSNBC, as well as co-founding The Daily Caller. In the summer of 2001, however, he was worried that his successful career would go down the drain when a woman accused him of raping her. The woman, who has not been publicly named, filed criminal sex charges against Carlson for allegedly raping her in Kentucky. Carlson hadn’t even been to Kentucky much less ever met the woman.

Carlson passed a lie detector test to prove his innocence. It also turned out that the woman who was accusing him was mentally unstable and had been stalking him for a while, sending him tokens in the mail, like cards and key chains and signing them from “your biggest fan.”

Keanu Reeves

The Canadian actor who is best known for playing Neo in The Matrix series, was falsely accused of raping and impregnating one of his fans. The woman came forward to sue Reeves for child support. She said that in 2009, he dressed as her ex-husband and hypnotized her to get her in bed and impregnate her.

Reeves maintains that he never met the woman before in his life and told US Magazine, “I had to go to court. It was horrible. I didn’t do it. I’m not the dad.” Reeves also had to take a DNA test, which ultimately proved he did not father her child.

[jnrjr79]

First, you are assuming formal public charges. I suspect Johnny is referring to women who quietly make the assertion and seek a settlement before making it public. Once the charge is made public, a lot of leverage is lost for settlement.

Second, I can think of a few just off the top of my head: Mike Tyson, Darren Sharper, Ruben Patterson, Josh McNary, Ben Rothlesberger, Mark Chmura, Derrick Rose, the Duke Lacrosse Team, Jameis Winston. I'm sure there a lot, lot, lot more.

Do you know of any cases which were settled privately? If we have no idea of the magnitude, it's kind of meaningless to talk about it as a wide-spread phenomenon.

Private settlements, by their very nature, should not be identifiable to non-parties. The fact that they can't be identified does nothing to support an argument that this isn't a real phenomenon, at least with respect to public figures.

[jnrjr79]

My point very simple - unlike some have claimed here, rape accusations are EXTREMELY rare. Maybe 1/1000 NBA players gets accused of rape. I have yet to hear of an NBA player falsely accused of rape. Unfortunately, Derrick Rose is part of that statistic.

There are , what, 360-450 players in the whole league? It is definitely not 1/1000.

[johnnyvann840]

Tim Robbins- You are throwing these random numbers out , like 1 out of 1000 or other percents, just like you did in the standing and playoffs thread a while back..

But just off the top of my head, we have Derrick, Kobe, Deshawn Stevenson, Michael Beasley... throw Marv Albert in there as a celebrity involved with the NBA.. That is four players and an announcer, just thinking about it for a minute..... The NBA has less than 500 players... so 4 alone would put the number closer to 1 out of every 125 NBA players are accused of rape... I know there are others.. now that doesn't include all the false accusations and even real ones settled out of court privately that we never hear about. So your number is at the very very minimum 8x too high.

And I guarantee the number for celebs and wealthy athletes is not only larger than it is for normal people but ASTRONOMICALLY larger. Just for NBA players it is probably at least 100x more common to be accused of rape.

[jnrjr79]

Kobe's statement was very carefully worded. Without getting in the nuances of the statement (and the case), I think we can both agree that Kobe was not "falsely accused".

First, his statement was something that he did to get the case settled. There's no reason to believe the content is true or untrue. Even if true, it does not support the notion that he was falsely accused. It only admits that they had sex and that, well after the fact, Kobe came to believe that she had not wanted to.

[DuckIII]

Kobe's statement was very carefully worded. Without getting in the nuances of the statement (and the case), I think we can both agree that Kobe was not "falsely accused".

You think wrong.

How many cases can you remember of a rich/wealthy person being falsely accused of rape? I can't remember even one.

Someone mentioned Michael Irvin and Erik Williams already, and I mentioned the Duke Lacrosse team. And not that I want to get into a discussion with you about it, and frankly won't, but I put Kobe Bryant on that list as well. I did a quick google search and also came up with the following wealthy and famous people: Brian Banks (NFL), David Copperfield, Keanu Reeves and Tucker Carlson. Mark Chmura was found not guilty, who I already mentioned.

Look, this is based on 90 seconds of internet research. I'm not particularly interested in spending a lot of time on this.

[DuckIII]

Kobe's statement was very carefully worded. Without getting in the nuances of the statement (and the case), I think we can both agree that Kobe was not "falsely accused".

First, his statement was something that he did to get the case settled. There's no reason to believe the content is true or untrue. Even if true, it does not support the notion that he was falsely accused. It only admits that they had sex and that, well after the fact, Kobe came to believe that she had not wanted to.

I'd need to double check, but I don't think it even goes that far. I think he says that he finally came to learn that she didn't believe she'd consented. Not that he believed she didn't consent. Translation: I realize she thinks she didn't consent. But she did.