Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

[PaulieWal]

- Still the likes of Haslem, Chalmers, Battier, Mike Miller and Joel Anthony. That's straight up garbage.

What?

Battier was a solid role player for Miami in 12 and most of 2013. Chalmers was a pretty good role player in 2012 as well. Both of them especially played well in the playoffs. He stayed in his lane and played his part to perfection. Battier's defense was key for Miami and Wade, LeBron, Battier, Bosh anchored that D beautifully despite not having a center or a rim protector.

Edit: I remember Bondom saying he still has nightmares of Battier from those Finals .

[penbeast0]

Unpopular opinion #1 -- Bill Russell was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan in almost any era if your goal is to win a championship. If your goal is to sell tickets, go with Jordan.

Unpopular opinion #2 -- Sidney Moncrief, for a short 4 years, was equal to peak Dwyane Wade and one of the top 5 SGs of all time.

Unpopular opinion #3 -- Allen Iverson could have been replaced by 10 of the other SG's in the NBA each year of his prime without Philadephia suffering any great slip in play (though the 10 might differ year by year). That includes his run to the finals.

[Quotatious]

Unpopular opinion #1 -- Bill Russell was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan in almost any era if your goal is to win a championship. If your goal is to sell tickets, go with Jordan.

I really don't see how Russell would be better than Jordan after 1980. Pre 3-point era, I can see an argument for Bill, but the more perimeter oriented offenses are, the lower Russell's impact would be. He was a perfect fit for the pre-1980 NBA, because most teams were heavily inside-oriented on offense, and obviously interior defense was Russell's greatest strength.

I can't even see Russell being better than Tim Duncan in this era, let alone Jordan.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Unpopular opinion #1 -- Bill Russell was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan in almost any era if your goal is to win a championship. If your goal is to sell tickets, go with Jordan.

Unpopular opinion #2 -- Sidney Moncrief, for a short 4 years, was equal to peak Dwyane Wade and one of the top 5 SGs of all time.

Unpopular opinion #3 -- Allen Iverson could have been replaced by 10 of the other SG's in the NBA each year of his prime without Philadephia suffering any great slip in play (though the 10 might differ year by year). That includes his run to the finals.

Well I can certainly see you went all in on the unpopular angle.

[bballexpert]

I generally rank Duncan lower than most around here. Not much but he's jumped from a fringe Top 10 player to Top 5 in many cases just over the last few years. I just don't value longevity to the extent he moves up that much over other goat candidates.

i respect at first i felt you were just hating but in a few spots you have given me good links when i need to learn more. I feel Duncan 1999-2003 is on par with everyone 2002-2003 more so and i think his ranking is more then deserved. I also kinda cut down Hakeem at times with you because your a fan of him which is wrong thing to do also he is solidly in my top 10 as well.

[bballexpert]

Also another one i say is that i feel that Lebron is not as good as Duncan or Shaq and i get just hacked away by the peopel here when i say that really. I mean the people bring up all of Lebrons mvps which i feel he should have them but when they turn down Shaq and Duncan because they have less well **** if Lebron would had a prime KG,Dirk,Shaq and Kobe all playing at the same time i doubt he has as many today. I Duncan Shaq Magic Kobe over Lebron and the only one i feel is kinda bad decision is Kobe.

[eminence]

Maybe not quite as unpopular here, but I think Chris Paul is underappreciated. In my opinion he/Magic peaked on the same level, and pretty well above other point guards.

How would you rank their top 5 combined seasons?

Just really talking for his peak (07-08 and 08-09), the rest of his seasons have been a lot closer to the other high level point guards and a solid bit below Magic's peak.

A top 5 between the two is big-time in favor of Magic.If the 2009 playoffs had gone differently it could have been different, but as is, it's mostly Magic.

Top 5 (Regular season rank between the two/Postseason rank)

1. Magic 1987 (5/1)
2. Paul 2008 (4/2)
3. Magic 1990 (3/6)
4. Magic 1989 (2/8)
5. Magic 1991 (6/5)

Magic 1986 and Paul 2009 probably being my next two.

[eminence]

I might get banned for this.

I can't put Russell in my Top 10. I can't. I have think about this over and over, but I can't. I don't think he is a better player than (no order):

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, LeBron, Garnett, Kobe, Dirk, West, Oscar, Erving.

I put a lot of weight in my all-time list in the order I would take players to build a franchise, while being surrounded by average players and I think all these players would do a better job.

I also think Robinson, Wallace, Duncan, Garnett, Olajuwon were better defenders than him. Their impact MIGHT have been lower than Russell's, but I would like to see the players I mentioned above playing with no 3 point line. I consider Robinson the GOAT defender, with Wallace as a close second.

I actually somewhat agree with this one... On a greatness scale I have to have Russell top 5 or so for his ridiculous success, but if I was just doing a best players list there is no way I could place him higher than the 6th best center behind Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, and Wilt. Even though I think he's the most influential defensive player of all-time, I can't for the life of me bring myself to believe it makes up for the huge offensive gaps those guys all have on him while being good to great defenders in their own right.

[Hawk]

I might get banned for this.

I can't put Russell in my Top 10. I can't. I have think about this over and over, but I can't. I don't think he is a better player than (no order):

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, LeBron, Garnett, Kobe, Dirk, West, Oscar, Erving.

I put a lot of weight in my all-time list in the order I would take players to build a franchise, while being surrounded by average players and I think all these players would do a better job.

I also think Robinson, Wallace, Duncan, Garnett, Olajuwon were better defenders than him. Their impact MIGHT have been lower than Russell's, but I would like to see the players I mentioned above playing with no 3 point line. I consider Robinson the GOAT defender, with Wallace as a close second.

I actually somewhat agree with this one... On a greatness scale I have to have Russell top 5 or so for his ridiculous success, but if I was just doing a best players list there is no way I could place him higher than the 6th best center behind Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, and Wilt. Even though I think he's the most influential defensive player of all-time, I can't for the life of me bring myself to believe it makes up for the huge offensive gaps those guys all have on him while being good to great defenders in their own right.

I don't know if "greatness" means career, but at least in my case, if we were doing a Top10 or Top 20 all time careers, Russell is going to be either #1 or #2. But when I do a Top10 or Top20 GOAT list, I base my list on how good they were as a players, and that is where I don't believe that Russell belongs with the likes of the centers that you mentioned (and other non-center players).

[Mutnt]

LOL.

The dude was straight garbage in '12, what are you talking about? A spot up shooter exclusively averaging 5 ppg on 54%TS. Zero playmaking ability, just stood in the corner and waited for the ball whole game and wasn't particularly efficient with his shots most of the time. You get way better role players on every playoff team. Battier was garbage most of the time in Miami. He was also old and frequently matched with guys twice his size because Miami had no adequate Big men on their roster. I can applaud his hustle and sometimes he was clutch, no denying that, but on average he was more garbage than not. He's just accumulated this good aura around him over his career from always being positive, a hard worker, playing for Duke, being a respectable role player in his prime, JVG constantly on his nuts etc...

Battier was far from any 'key' in Miami's defense. Actually, easily Miami's best defensive year was before Battier even joined the team. Come on, the dude was 35 years old and had to guard guys like David West who bullied him and was too slow to keep up with LeBron, Wade perimeter switching. You have to do better than this...

Chalmers was never something to write home about, he did muster a couple solid games here in there but was a bottom tier starting PG in comparison to what other NBA teams had. When your role is threatened by a rookie Norris Cole you know you're garbage. And finally, he has a track record of under-performing in the postseason. During LeBron's tenure in Miami, Chalmers averaged 9 ppg on 54%TS and wasn't particularly stunning as a playmaker or some impressive defensive player, he was actually quite boneheaded in the literal sense. Yes, his '12 campaign was by far his best year but still 11 ppg in 36 mpg in the playoffs, 55%TS doesn't equate to ''pretty good'' in my book.

[PaulieWal]

LOL.

The dude was straight garbage in '12, what are you talking about? A spot up shooter exclusively averaging 5 ppg on 54%TS. Zero playmaking ability, just stood in the corner and waited for the ball whole game and wasn't particularly efficient with his shots most of the time. You get way better role players on every playoff team. Battier was garbage most of the time in Miami. He was also old and frequently matched with guys twice his size because Miami had no adequate Big men on their roster. I can applaud his hustle and sometimes he was clutch, no denying that, but on average he was more garbage than not. He's just accumulated this good aura around him over his career from always being positive, a hard worker, playing for Duke, being a respectable role player in his prime, JVG constantly on his nuts etc...

Battier was far from any 'key' in Miami's defense. Actually, easily Miami's best defensive year was before Battier even joined the team. Come on, the dude was 35 years old and had to guard guys like David West who bullied him and was too slow to keep up with LeBron, Wade perimeter switching. You have to do better than this...

Chalmers was never something to write home about, he did muster a couple solid games here in there but was a bottom tier starting PG in comparison to what other NBA teams had. When your role is threatened by a rookie Norris Cole you know you're garbage. And finally, he has a track record of under-performing in the postseason. During LeBron's tenure in Miami, Chalmers averaged 9 ppg on 54%TS and wasn't particularly stunning as a playmaker or some impressive defensive player, he was actually quite boneheaded in the literal sense. Yes, his '12 campaign was by far his best year but still 11 ppg in 36 mpg in the playoffs, 55%TS doesn't equate to ''pretty good'' in my book.

This is some serious revisionist history on your part. What your agenda is behind that is anyone's guess but I am specifically talking about 2012, not what happened in 2014 when Battier was washed up and Chalmers struggled. Using PPGzz to talk about Battier is pretty silly. His value as a floor spacer was important to the whole concept of small ball and he shot the 3 @ 38+% in the playoffs.

11 PPG in 36 MPG at 55% TS is PRETTY GOOD for a role player who's not asked to do much and just space the floor which is what his role was.

And BTW Battier was 33 in 2012. He was on his last legs clearly but he was pretty important to the Heat's success in 2012 and 2013. If your focus is on his offensive numbers then yeah he's not going to mean much but that's a stupid way of looking at a 3&D guy.

[Nbafanatic]

LOL.

The dude was straight garbage in '12, what are you talking about? A spot up shooter exclusively averaging 5 ppg on 54%TS. Zero playmaking ability, just stood in the corner and waited for the ball whole game and wasn't particularly efficient with his shots most of the time. You get way better role players on every playoff team. Battier was garbage most of the time in Miami. He was also old and frequently matched with guys twice his size because Miami had no adequate Big men on their roster. I can applaud his hustle and sometimes he was clutch, no denying that, but on average he was more garbage than not. He's just accumulated this good aura around him over his career from always being positive, a hard worker, playing for Duke, being a respectable role player in his prime, JVG constantly on his nuts etc...

Battier was far from any 'key' in Miami's defense. Actually, easily Miami's best defensive year was before Battier even joined the team. Come on, the dude was 35 years old and had to guard guys like David West who bullied him and was too slow to keep up with LeBron, Wade perimeter switching. You have to do better than this...

Chalmers was never something to write home about, he did muster a couple solid games here in there but was a bottom tier starting PG in comparison to what other NBA teams had. When your role is threatened by a rookie Norris Cole you know you're garbage. And finally, he has a track record of under-performing in the postseason. During LeBron's tenure in Miami, Chalmers averaged 9 ppg on 54%TS and wasn't particularly stunning as a playmaker or some impressive defensive player, he was actually quite boneheaded in the literal sense. Yes, his '12 campaign was by far his best year but still 11 ppg in 36 mpg in the playoffs, 55%TS doesn't equate to ''pretty good'' in my book.

This is some serious revisionist history on your part. What your agenda is behind that is anyone's guess but I am specifically talking about 2012, not what happened in 2014 when Battier was washed up and Chalmers struggled. Using PPGzz to talk about Battier is pretty silly. His value as a floor spacer was important to the whole concept of small ball and he shot the 3 @ 38+% in the playoffs.

11 PPG in 36 MPG at 55% TS is PRETTY GOOD for a role player who's not asked to do much and just space the floor which is what his role was.

And BTW Battier was 33 in 2012. He was on his last legs clearly but he was pretty important to the Heat's success in 2012 and 2013. If your focus is on his offensive numbers then yeah he's not going to mean much but that's a stupid way of looking at a 3&D guy.

Adding to that, Battier also sacrificed himself big time defending power forwards to keep Lebron fresh. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that he declined so quickly from 2013 to 2014.

[PaulieWal]

LOL.

The dude was straight garbage in '12, what are you talking about? A spot up shooter exclusively averaging 5 ppg on 54%TS. Zero playmaking ability, just stood in the corner and waited for the ball whole game and wasn't particularly efficient with his shots most of the time. You get way better role players on every playoff team. Battier was garbage most of the time in Miami. He was also old and frequently matched with guys twice his size because Miami had no adequate Big men on their roster. I can applaud his hustle and sometimes he was clutch, no denying that, but on average he was more garbage than not. He's just accumulated this good aura around him over his career from always being positive, a hard worker, playing for Duke, being a respectable role player in his prime, JVG constantly on his nuts etc...

Battier was far from any 'key' in Miami's defense. Actually, easily Miami's best defensive year was before Battier even joined the team. Come on, the dude was 35 years old and had to guard guys like David West who bullied him and was too slow to keep up with LeBron, Wade perimeter switching. You have to do better than this...

Chalmers was never something to write home about, he did muster a couple solid games here in there but was a bottom tier starting PG in comparison to what other NBA teams had. When your role is threatened by a rookie Norris Cole you know you're garbage. And finally, he has a track record of under-performing in the postseason. During LeBron's tenure in Miami, Chalmers averaged 9 ppg on 54%TS and wasn't particularly stunning as a playmaker or some impressive defensive player, he was actually quite boneheaded in the literal sense. Yes, his '12 campaign was by far his best year but still 11 ppg in 36 mpg in the playoffs, 55%TS doesn't equate to ''pretty good'' in my book.

This is some serious revisionist history on your part. What your agenda is behind that is anyone's guess but I am specifically talking about 2012, not what happened in 2014 when Battier was washed up and Chalmers struggled. Using PPGzz to talk about Battier is pretty silly. His value as a floor spacer was important to the whole concept of small ball and he shot the 3 @ 38+% in the playoffs.

11 PPG in 36 MPG at 55% TS is PRETTY GOOD for a role player who's not asked to do much and just space the floor which is what his role was.

And BTW Battier was 33 in 2012. He was on his last legs clearly but he was pretty important to the Heat's success in 2012 and 2013. If your focus is on his offensive numbers then yeah he's not going to mean much but that's a stupid way of looking at a 3&D guy.

Adding to that, Battier also sacrificed himself big time defending power forwards to keep Lebron fresh. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that he declined so quickly from 2013 to 2014.

Oh, that's a reason for sure. He even talked about it in 2013 that guarding bigger guys consistently took a lot outta him. I remember the Chicago series in 2013 when his shot disappeared and he said how his legs had gone guarding Boozer. I don't think that's a secret. Playing the 4 defensively helped him and the team get 2 rings but it also definitely lead to his rapid decline from 13 to 14.

[Joao Saraiva]

I think:
1 - Billups over Isiah Thomas (already stated here);

2 - I think LeBron's 09 is comparable to MJ's best seasons. I think that might be the best peak ever;

3 - I have Dirk, Karl Malone, Barkley and Duncan all ahead of Kevin Garnett. I know KG is popular arround here but I'm not that high on him;

4 - I have a better opinion about Allen Iverson here than most. I think his type of game was the right approach with the rosters he had and he did as well as most stars would do on those teams. Of course in the olympics he played bad and was one of the reasons for USA's failure, but he showed a better team play effort and better efficiency in Denver. He just wasn't at his best anymore;

5 - I think Kobe and Bird are in the same tier. I'd give a slight edge to Bird, but some people make it look like the gap is really big, and I don't think that's the case.

6 - Kobe outplayed peak Shaq in 01 vs SAS. People might drop a big amount of reasons why not but I think Kobe did it;

7 - I think referees are actually good in the NBA. Sure they've had some games where I think their decisions influenced the outcome, but I'm usually satisfied;

8 - I believe Jeff Hornacek is underrated. I believe he's the ideal 2nd/3rd wheel on offense;

9 - I think Rondo was never a top 5 PG in the league, and I'd go as far as saying he should never make an all-nba team (even 3rd). I think he's overrated as hell;

10 - I'm really high on CP3 and I think his lack of team success hurt a lot the way people think about him. For most people Dirk vs CP3 wouldn't even be a debate, but I think it really is.

[Narigo]

-Russell is not a better player than Shaq, Duncan, and Chamberlain.

-Artis Gilmore is better than Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Rick Barry, John Havilchek, Steve Nash and Clyde Drexler. In fact, I have Gilmore in the top 25. He was the second best player in ABA after Erving. Also, I could argue that he was top 5 player in the NBA in 1977 and 1979.

-Chris Paul is a better player than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West

[LakerLegend]

Dr. J over Magic/Bird IMO makes sense, too (because of his great longevity, and arguably higher peak - I certainly don't dismiss the ABA or think that it was a "joke" league, like some people do, and I think his finals performance against Denver in the '76 finals was on par with the first three-peat MJ and three-peat Shaq, it was absolutely GOAT level).

Well, I suggest you do more research then:

Many argue as to the veracity of ABA stats due to the fact it played a more wide open game than the NBA as well whether it was as strong as the NBA.

Yet even if the NBA was stronger at any given time, it doesnt negate the fact that there was still another league splitting the professional talent pool regardless. Not only was the professional talent pool split between 1968 and 1976, but there was a TREMENDOUS increase in the amount of teams.

In 1968, the NBA had 10 teams. By 1972, it had 17. In 1972, the ABA had 11 teams. So in the 4 year span between 1968 and 1972, the amount of professional teams increased by 18. So not only were the leagues splitting the talent pool and not competing against each other, but in 1972 you had 28 professional teams, and in 1977 the first year after the merger you actually had LESS, with 22.

For perspective, many say the 90's were diluted because 4 teams were added at the end of the 80's and then 2 more teams in 95.

To clarify, we are not comparing the NBA and ABA but we are comparing the period of 1968-1976 to combined NBA pre ABA and post merger.

Rick Barry is a good example of the situation at the time. Not in terms of stats, but the fact that he played 2 years in the NBA, then jumped to the ABA for 4 years, then went back to the NBA.

Now, this doesnt change the fact that guys like Kareem, Dr. J, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes etc. weren't great because they were still the best players out there, but whether players would have had the numbers they had, whether teams that were champions would have been champions in a combined league, and whether players would have won as many awards as they did in a combined league is certainly, IMO up for debate. I mean, would Dr J have snatched another MVP or two, some All-NBA teams, or won another championship if he was in the NBA during his ABA years? Obviously, very real possibilities.

So in a 4 year span professional basketball split into two leagues and added a total number of 18 teams.........the definition of dilution.

His opponent in the 1976 finals scored 122 a game in the 1976 ABA and allowed 116 a game.

In the NBA they scored 112 a game and allowed 107.

Clearly the ABA had more inflated stats relative to the post-merger league.

Not to mention it's a little too convenient his Finals stats in 1977(the first year of the merger) are quite inferior to his 1976 Finals stats.

[Mutnt]

This is some serious revisionist history on your part. What your agenda is behind that is anyone's guess but I am specifically talking about 2012, not what happened in 2014 when Battier was washed up and Chalmers struggled. Using PPGzz to talk about Battier is pretty silly. His value as a floor spacer was important to the whole concept of small ball and he shot the 3 @ 38+% in the playoffs.

11 PPG in 36 MPG at 55% TS is PRETTY GOOD for a role player who's not asked to do much and just space the floor which is what his role was.

And BTW Battier was 33 in 2012. He was on his last legs clearly but he was pretty important to the Heat's success in 2012 and 2013. If your focus is on his offensive numbers then yeah he's not going to mean much but that's a stupid way of looking at a 3&D guy.

I'm not talking about 2014. I'm talking about the period between 2011 and 2014 regarding LeBron's cast (especially come playoff time). Your agenda made you tunnel-visioned only on '12 which happened to be the year Battier and Chalmers player by far their best basketball for the Heat at aforementioned time period.

I'm not focusing solely on what Battier brought on offense. Didn't you read my post? Because if you did I mentioned his overrated defense too. I'm not saying he was a negative defender, but when people go off reputation and start labeling a 33-year old Battier like he was some consistent difference maker on defense, that's when horses need to be held.

I mean, are you even listening to yourself. We're out here talking about old Battier and Chalmers as premier role players on what was supposedly a ''stacked'' roster for a team that made 4 trips to the Finals and won 2 championships. Freaking Boobie Gibson averaged 8 PPG in 20 MPG at 61% TS in 2007 (that's better than what Rio did in 3 out of 4 years) and even compared to Rio '12 campaign, his per minute production is far better with a similar role. Heck, he almost matches Chalmers playing almost half less minutes per game. Boobie Gibson actually performed admirably, if we take into account what his role was, strictly to shoot 3's, he was then elite at his job. But unfortunately, that still doesn't make him a good role player because he wasn't doing anything beyond that.

If you're talking about Chalmers as a 'pretty good' role player during the Heatles era, or even during 2012 (to better fit your agenda) then Boobie Gibson '07 was also a pretty good role player. I'm starting to wonder where that bar is set right now. Does that make Haslem a 'good' role player and Juwan Howard an average one? What is Iguodala then? What is Bogut?

The only time the Heat were stacked was in '13 during that 27 win-streak because Wade finally looked healthy, Bosh was playing up to his standard, Allen added some perimeter shooting because everyone else was consistently failing to, and Birdman added some much needed size and rim protection to a big man-less team. The role players weren't stellar but the bench was deep enough that each guy could potentially do something (mainly shoot 3's or play a little D). Wade was never healthy in the postseason 'tho, Bosh had injury problems too in '12 and played poorly in other years, Chalmers and Battier got worse against better teams. Who else was left? 3'no'D Allen? Hustle bot Birdman? An injured washed up Haslem? A barely walking Mike Miller?

[tha_rock220]

Bill Russell is not top 10.

[PaulieWal]

This is some serious revisionist history on your part. What your agenda is behind that is anyone's guess but I am specifically talking about 2012, not what happened in 2014 when Battier was washed up and Chalmers struggled. Using PPGzz to talk about Battier is pretty silly. His value as a floor spacer was important to the whole concept of small ball and he shot the 3 @ 38+% in the playoffs.

11 PPG in 36 MPG at 55% TS is PRETTY GOOD for a role player who's not asked to do much and just space the floor which is what his role was.

And BTW Battier was 33 in 2012. He was on his last legs clearly but he was pretty important to the Heat's success in 2012 and 2013. If your focus is on his offensive numbers then yeah he's not going to mean much but that's a stupid way of looking at a 3&D guy.

I'm not talking about 2014. I'm talking about the period between 2011 and 2014 regarding LeBron's cast (especially come playoff time). Your agenda made you tunnel-visioned only on '12 which happened to be the year Battier and Chalmers player by far their best basketball for the Heat at aforementioned time period.

I'm not focusing solely on what Battier brought on offense. Didn't you read my post? Because if you did I mentioned his overrated defense too. I'm not saying he was a negative defender, but when people go off reputation and start labeling a 33-year old Battier like he was some consistent difference maker on defense, that's when horses need to be held.

I mean, are you even listening to yourself. We're out here talking about old Battier and Chalmers as premier role players on what was supposedly a ''stacked'' roster for a team that made 4 trips to the Finals and won 2 championships. Freaking Boobie Gibson averaged 8 PPG in 20 MPG at 61% TS in 2007 (that's better than what Rio did in 3 out of 4 years) and even compared to Rio '12 campaign, his per minute production is far better with a similar role. Heck, he almost matches Chalmers playing almost half less minutes per game. Boobie Gibson actually performed admirably, if we take into account what his role was, strictly to shoot 3's, he was then elite at his job. But unfortunately, that still doesn't make him a good role player because he wasn't doing anything beyond that.

If you're talking about Chalmers as a 'pretty good' role player during the Heatles era, or even during 2012 (to better fit your agenda) then Boobie Gibson '07 was also a pretty good role player. I'm starting to wonder where that bar is set right now. Does that make Haslem a 'good' role player and Juwan Howard an average one? What is Iguodala then? What is Bogut?

The only time the Heat were stacked was in '13 during that 27 win-streak because Wade finally looked healthy, Bosh was playing up to his standard, Allen added some perimeter shooting because everyone else was consistently failing to, and Birdman added some much needed size and rim protection to a big man-less team. The role players weren't stellar but the bench was deep enough that each guy could potentially do something (mainly shoot 3's or play a little D). Wade was never healthy in the postseason 'tho, Bosh had injury problems too in '12 and played poorly in other years, Chalmers and Battier got worse against better teams. Who else was left? 3'no'D Allen? Hustle bot Birdman? An injured washed up Haslem? A barely walking Mike Miller?

Are you listening to yourself?

You are just jumping all over the place and now talking about 2014.

I specifically pointed out you saying that the supporting cast for the Heat in 2012 was "garbage" and you included Battier/Chalmers in that in your very first post in this thread. If that's not what you meant then we chalk this up to a misunderstanding. If not then your agenda is becoming clearer.

Any reasonable person would agree that the role players for the Heat were good in 2012 and stepped up pretty well during the playoffs. If you wanna be irrational here then that's on you.

There's a difference in me saying Chalmers was a good role player behind LeBron, Wade, and Bosh vs. talking about Gibson in 07. Obviously if Chalmers was the 2nd option on the team then he's not a "good option". Context matters and you failed miserably at trying to twist my words. Don't worry about my agenda when I'm simply correcting your lies about 2012 .

[penbeast0]

Ben Wallace was, arguably, the best player on an NBA champion that beat prime Shaq and Kobe. Ben Wallace is significantly inferior to Bill Russell in virtually every possible category except strength (and relative to his peers, most likely in strength). Russell is a better help defender, man defender, shot blocker, rebounder, shooter, passer, has a higher basketball IQ, and was a better leader. And I love the Fro . . . and yet, somehow Russell can't lead a team to a title today because, well, he doesn't score a lot of points.

There is more to the game than scoring.