How good was prime Arvydas Sabonis?

[UcanUwill]

He would be easily the best center in the NBA today

Definitely, but thats not saying much. I think he was kinda like a taller and more athletic Marc Gasol, with better hands (GOAT hands IMO), 3 point range, rebounding, flashier passing, probably not as good on defensive rotations tho.

Sabonis' legend is so big, I think he is kinda overrated by those who admire him so much. He was definitely very good, but I don't think he was AS good as some claim. With him, its about how good he could have been, not how good he really was. If he joined Blazers in the 80s and avoided injuries, had better medical staff around him, he could have been Superstar in NBA easily.

[Hangtime84]

Also he might be the best passing big man I have ever seen even on destroyed legs.

as a kid i would watch his passes in amazement.

[UcanUwill]

One of the great unknowns in basketball history. It was so hard to know what the domestic league was like in the USSR in the early 80s, unless you were living there. The myth grew in the West though, every time he would play in international competition. But truthfully it is difficult to know how he would have fared. He did have a plethora of moves and was a giant of a man with quick footwork, great court vision and a great long distance release. But overall, no idea how he would have looked if he came to Portland earlier or if he didn't do his achilles at a young age. Overall though, I'd say he would have at the very least been a very good to great NBA center in the 80s and the rest is a who knows............

I don't know much about Soviets domestic league at the time, but I know it had 2 really strong and by all means legendary teams - Sabonis' Zalgiris Kaunas and CSKA Moscow. Those teams had great rivalry, it was Soviet's El Clasico, and both of those clubs had some NBA caliber players, like Vladimir Tkacenko (youtube him, classic huge center), Kurtinaitis and others...

Rivalry between Zalgiris and CSKA had political flawour as well, as it was like an unofficial game between Lithuania and Russia, as Zalgiris had all the best Lithuanian players, while CSKA had all the Russian talent.

[Brooklyn_34]

Well, its all just speculation really, since we basically never got to see it at the NBA level. But I feel like you kind of complimented Sabonis and insulted him at the same time. If Sabas was as great as I think he might have been, he was better than any version of Walton, and Gasol might not even be honored with "poor man's version". My well who knows maybe version of Sabas is some sort of 24pt 11reb 5ast 2blk hybrid monster who might even have put up a few seasons above that.

But again, we really don't know. I would say this: even in the delapidated gimpy state in which he finally arrived in the NBA, I might take him over any current NBA center not named Cousins. That's a bit tough though, because he was largely a part time player because of those legs. But talentwise? Sure. And so he's got a really high floor for me even before we start trying to give him back his youth and health.

Right....

He came in injured basically. His knees were never fully healthy.

Also, did he really ever have a prime because of his injuries? I don't think so.

[Cowology]

He was probably the best passing C of all time and one of the few guys with the physical size and strength to battle Shaq 1v1. Unfortunately he had knee trouble before even hitting his 30's and was well past his prime by the time he came over to the US, so it's really hard to speculate. I'd guess he'd be the best C in the league and Smitty is probably correct in saying he was the 2nd best player in the world behind Jordan during his prime.

[tsherkin]

In as much as they're quality shot blockers who can score reasonably well and make passes while being very tall, there's a comparison. I think the difference is that Sabas was more creative a passer and had a broader scoring arsenal on top of that. Obviously, I suspect a younger Sabonis would have had a lot more mobility, as well. It's not an awful comparison, so long as you constrain discussion of Marc within the idea that you're talking about actual Portland Sabonis.

i guess i dont view sabonis as someone who can "score reasonably well". i see sabonis as a 24ppg scorer or better in the nba in any era in his prime. gasol is a 12-15 ppg guy.

As a rebounder i think the compairson is even worse. i think sabonis is a guy who would be top 5 every year while gasol has never seen double digits.

and while marc has been DPOTY, i view arvydas as having a bigger defensive impact. i think even the version of sabonis we saw in portland was better defensively.

i just think its really far off. from style to production. other then both being big foreign white guys i dont see anything all that similar.

I suspect you've missed my point. I created a baseline comparison of style and impact that I said explicitly should be limited to Old Sabas.

You're arguing with the wrong guy ;

[chrismikayla]

Man what a gifted passer and immensely skilled.

He could dominate even while remaining perfectly still

I love how he posed after the pass

[Winsome Gerbil]

i think if he played in the NBA during his prime you are looking at an elite player. something like 25/12/7/3 on elite efficiency and multiple rings/DPOTY awards.

I mean, I have long bought into the Sabas legend, but that's not an elite player statline, that's maybe the GOAT.

I can't ride the train up that far.

Still, I am on record as saying that DeMarcus Cousins is a Top 15 all time center (and I am right about that too). And yet I legitimately think if prime Sabas were here he might be even better. About the level I start squiriming a bit with just giving Sabas a reputation pass to the top is maybe Patrick Ewing or so (about #8 center, #25-#30 overall). I'm willing to gamble on the unprecedented 7'3" center with nearly every skill over undersized scrappers like Mourning or Howard, but while I think almost anything might have been possible, up to and including Arvydas not Dirk being the greatest European player of all time, I just can't say he definitively would have been a Top 20 all time guy based on a couple of international tournaments, and then looking impressive in his declining years. What I can say is he might be the most exciting talent we have seen to never have a shot at those kind of heights.

[chrismikayla]

wow

https://youtu.be/Uv1qpF2AEgc

[Leslie Forman]

I mean, I have long bought into the Sabas legend, but that's not an elite player statline, that's maybe the GOAT.

I can't ride the train up that far.

Still, I am on record as saying that DeMarcus Cousins is a Top 15 all time center (and I am right about that too). And yet I legitimately think if prime Sabas were here he might be even better. About the level I start squiriming a bit with just giving Sabas a reputation pass to the top is maybe Patrick Ewing or so (about #7 center, #25-#30 overall). I'm willing to gamble on the unprecedented 7'3" center with nearly every skill over undersized scrappers like Mourning or Howard, but while I think almost anything might have been possible, up to and including Arvydas not Dirk being the greatest European player of all time, I just can't say he definitively would have been a Top 20 all time guy based on a couple of international tournaments, and then looking impressive in his declining years. What I can say is he might be the most exciting talent we have seen to never have a shot at those kind of heights.

Well, if you just compare rookie Sabonis to some of the ATGs at the same age (Robinson had his season off that year), he sure compares favorably, and that's with him essentially playing in pain every single game. It is just an assumption to say he'd put up Shaq/Robinson numbers when he was younger, but it's hardly based on nothing.

I mean, hell, among those seasons, you've got an MVP, two guys who were top-5 in MVP voting, and two top-10. Even if you assume the only benefit whatsoever that Sabonis gets from coming over earlier is playing more minutes, you've got a perennial MVP candidate. A few monster 25+/12+ seasons would have easily been well within his reach in the '80s IMO.

[NBAfan3024]

Shame the war stopped fans seeing him

[Han Solo]

He could pass the rock.. that's for sure..

[mateo82]

Why are there 52 posts in this thread? How many people here ever saw him play? Youtube highlight clips don't count. It's like 30 year olds having an opinion on Bill Russell. You have no idea, stop pretending.

[chrismikayla]

Why are there 52 posts in this thread? How many people here ever saw him play? Youtube highlight clips don't count. It's like 30 year olds having an opinion on Bill Russell. You have no idea, stop pretending.

I saw him play his entire career. I understand how underrated he is and it's sad most people will only know him after his knees were shot. I remember reading an article that when he first got his physical doctor's were amazed he could still walk much less play basketball in the NBA. It was stated one of the doctor's told the Blazers that he could get a handicapped parking sticker based on his xrays alone. One of the enduring memories unfortunately is of that punk Rasheed Wallace throwing a towel in his face. I wish Sabonis would have leveled his *ss right then and there. Arvydas could have manhandled Rasheed if he really wanted to.

[cold_cowboy]

Why are there 52 posts in this thread? How many people here ever saw him play? Youtube highlight clips don't count. It's like 30 year olds having an opinion on Bill Russell. You have no idea, stop pretending.

it's not just mid-20's guys in here, plus a lot of us are Lithuanians and know a lot about the guy.

[BarbaGrizz]

Sabonis and Oscar Schmidt are the two players that would have changed the NBA if they had played in their primes.

[The_Hater]

If I had to make a current comparison for Sabonis it was be Marc Gasol, only Sabonis was so much taller, longer and stronger that he was like the supped up version. Somebody who would fit perfectly in today's NBA and average 20/12 with a boatload of assists and blocks to go with it. But his skill level, style, smarts were closer to Gasol than anyone I can think of.

[Hornet Mania]

He was pretty clearly the equal of David Robinson in 86 and 88 when they faced off as members of their national teams. Sabonis did not, as legend has it, dominate Admiral but they basically played to a draw with several incredible highlights on both sides. That, along with his excellent play at an advanced age (in basketball terms) after having been diminished by injury, suggests he would probably have been considered among the 20-30 best players to ever live had he been in the NBA and stayed healthy.

His size/coordination combo with legit 3pt range was light-years ahead of basketball strategy in the 80s. If Sabonis were a Russian teen coming into next year's draft he would have insane hype. A player with the potential to physically dominate on the block while also stretching defenses from deep when needed would probably be the most-coveted prospect since Lebron.

[Prokorov]

Why are there 52 posts in this thread? How many people here ever saw him play? Youtube highlight clips don't count. It's like 30 year olds having an opinion on Bill Russell. You have no idea, stop pretending.

i saw the interneational game vs the us and his entire career in portland. im not going to pretend to have seen a ton of his games when he played overseas since that stuff wasnt really available back then. but i saw him destroy david robinson when he was younger and then be an elite role player in his 30s with like no knees.

[LuDux1]

I don't know much about Soviets domestic league at the time, but I know it had 2 really strong and by all means legendary teams - Sabonis' Zalgiris Kaunas and CSKA Moscow. Those teams had great rivalry, it was Soviet's El Clasico, and both of those clubs had some NBA caliber players, like Vladimir Tkacenko (youtube him, classic huge center), Kurtinaitis and others...

Rivalry between Zalgiris and CSKA had political flawour as well, as it was like an unofficial game between Lithuania and Russia, as Zalgiris had all the best Lithuanian players, while CSKA had all the Russian talent.

Russian, Ukranian, Belorussian, Kazakh, Estonian, Latvian

In mid-80s they played 5 best-of-3 finals: In 14 games, including 3 overtimes, all in 3rd games, Zalgiris outscored CSKA 1053-1051