Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

[Brooklyn_34]

Hmmm….

1. I think Mikan, Pettit, Robertson, Baylor, and West have been criminally underrated by many. Moses Malone is underrated.
1a. Robertson would flat out destroy the league if he played today, and so would West.
1b. As for Moses Malone, doesn't winning THREE MVP's count for anything???

2. I think Olajuwon and Garnett have been overrated by the board in general. Neither of them are in my top 10 list. Olajuwon is a little outside that and Garnett is further from that.

2a. Truth be told, back in the early 90s, lots of people would have taken Robinson over Olajuwon.
Robinson was clearly the more impactful player during the regular season. The 1995 series really destroyed David's reputation. Also, the gap between him and Ewing wasn't as great as people think.

3. Despite Karl Malone's OBVIOUS faults, I consider him to be the second best PF of all time after Duncan. I consider Bob Pettit the third best PF of all-time.
3a. Pettit was no joke—he really wasn't. To me, he was basically the power forward and more durable version of Manu Ginobili.


Don't get me wrong, playoffs matter, but I think many on this board put TOO MUCH emphasis on the playoffs and TOO LITTLE on the regular season.

I prefer a “tier-based” system of ranking players based on All-NBA team selections and MVPs. Once I group players based on that, then I will look at playoff success, anecdotes, footage, all-star selections, etc. to separate them.

[Quotatious]

3) Chris Paul is a top 5 PG of all time.
4) While Anthony Davis will undoubtedly dominate the league for years to come, he as a player right now is slightly overrated, especially when people say that he's already the best player in the league.

There's nothing unpopular about these two statements. CP3's peak/prime is clearly top 5 all-time among PGs. Davis is a top 7 player (LeBron, Curry, Harden, Durant, Westbrook, CP3 and Davis are clearly ahead of anyone else, IMO), but I only had him 5th last season (after Curry, Harden, CP3 and LeBron).

6) Michael Jordan was a phenomenal 1-on-1 perimeter defender, but I believe his actual defensive impact is a little overrated.

This is true, as well. Bulls were better defensively in '94 compared to '93 (106.1 DRtg in '93, 7th in the league, and only 102.7, 6th in the league in '94).

Oh, and even as a big Jordan fan, I wouldn't argue if someone said that '09 LeBron was the best single season in NBA history. Nobody who played 10+ postseason games in a year ever came close to the advanced numbers LBJ had in the playoffs. Personally, I have '91 MJ and '09 LBJ neck and neck as far as the best peak ever.

[megarover]

1. Peak Duncan over Peak Lebron.
2. Kobe was the best player in the NBA from 2006-08
3. Isiah Thomas gets underrated
4. 2001 was Kobe's Peak
5. Lebron/KG get overrated

1. I'd say they are on the same tier but I don't think there is a big gap between the two like some imply.
2. I agree
3. Very true on the PC board. If you are talking to a casual fan many of them will overrate him a bit but here its as if he was Brandon Knight.
4. There are lot of good seasons to pick from Kobe. I sorta just put 01, 03, 06 and 08 in any order depending on my mood.
5. This is funny because a few years ago these two were underrated by many. Never underestimate nostalgia.

[Winsome Gerbil]

1. Peak Duncan over Peak Lebron.
2. Kobe was the best player in the NBA from 2006-08
3. Isiah Thomas gets underrated
4. 2001 was Kobe's Peak
5. Lebron/KG get overrated

1. I'd say they are on the same tier but I don't think there is a big gap between the two like some imply.
2. I agree
3. Very true on the PC board. If you are talking to a casual fan many of them will overrate him a bit but here its as if he was Brandon Knight.
4. There are lot of good seasons to pick from Kobe. I sorta just put 01, 03, 06 and 08 in any order depending on my mood.
5. This is funny because a few years ago these two were underrated by many. Never underestimate nostalgia.

Allow me to explain in shorthand just how un-overrated Lebron James is.

Carrer PER:
#1 Michael Jordan 27.9
#2 LeBron James 27.7
#3 Shaquille O'Neal 26.4
#4 David Robinson 26.2
#5 Wilt Chamberlain 26.1

[Extra Medium]

1. Peak Duncan over Peak Lebron.
2. Kobe was the best player in the NBA from 2006-08
3. Isiah Thomas gets underrated
4. 2001 was Kobe's Peak
5. Lebron/KG get overrated

1. I'd say they are on the same tier but I don't think there is a big gap between the two like some imply.
2. I agree
3. Very true on the PC board. If you are talking to a casual fan many of them will overrate him a bit but here its as if he was Brandon Knight.
4. There are lot of good seasons to pick from Kobe. I sorta just put 01, 03, 06 and 08 in any order depending on my mood.
5. This is funny because a few years ago these two were underrated by many. Never underestimate nostalgia.

Allow me to explain in shorthand just how un-overrated Lebron James is.

Carrer PER:
#1 Michael Jordan 27.9
#2 LeBron James 27.7
#3 Shaquille O'Neal 26.4
#4 David Robinson 26.2
#5 Wilt Chamberlain 26.1

True but Lebron's PER will nosedive as he continues to age just as it did last year. By the time he retires he might not be on this list anymore. Just saying.

[GSP]

Steph Curry is prolly the most overrated player in the league now that even the biggest Kobe fans dont think hes good anymore. I think alot of it has to do with Steph not being a great athlete, having a clean cut image/family guy thing going on so far, and being a shooter so more fans are able to relate to him and inflate his abilities on both ends especially defense from this past season

The 14 Spurs and 15 Warriors arent a top 5 team post 2000. The Warriors dont have much matchup resilience compared to most those title teams and wouldnt beat most of them either. The 14 Spurs arent even the best Spurs team and caught very fortunate breaks against the Mavs, Okcs injury and Lebrons cramp/Ac fiasco. 01 Lakers, 04 Pistons, 05 Spurs, 08 Celts and 11 Mavs are the 5 best

[fuzzy_dunlop]

^
calling the 11 mavs a top 5 team post 2015 is really silly.

[Owly]

1. I'd say they are on the same tier but I don't think there is a big gap between the two like some imply.
2. I agree
3. Very true on the PC board. If you are talking to a casual fan many of them will overrate him a bit but here its as if he was Brandon Knight.
4. There are lot of good seasons to pick from Kobe. I sorta just put 01, 03, 06 and 08 in any order depending on my mood.
5. This is funny because a few years ago these two were underrated by many. Never underestimate nostalgia.

Allow me to explain in shorthand just how un-overrated Lebron James is.

Carrer PER:
#1 Michael Jordan 27.9
#2 LeBron James 27.7
#3 Shaquille O'Neal 26.4
#4 David Robinson 26.2
#5 Wilt Chamberlain 26.1

True but Lebron's PER will nosedive as he continues to age just as it did last year. By the time he retires he might not be on this list anymore. Just saying.

Not that PER is everything nor that what you're saying is necessarily incorrect (LeBron's RS productivity was substantially down last year and if that's primarily aging rather than teething problems adjusting to a new team, then the drop could be considered very worrying) but ...

say LeBron plays 6 more seasons at 2600 RS minutes per season, with an average PER over that span of circa 22.5.

He would finish his career at 5th in career PER a razor's width below Chamberlain

Chamberlain - 26.13
LeBron - 26.12083747
[edit addition - to fall out of the top five he'd have to fall below either a dropping Chris Paul, whose presently at 25.63 and, like LeBron, likely to slip a little, or Bob Pettit at 25.35]

He would also have played a total of 51369 career regular season minutes, which is
51369 - 41011 = 10358 more RS minutes than Jordan
51369 - 41918 = 9451 more RS minutes than O'Neal
51369 - 34271 = 17098 more RS minutes than Robinson
51369 - 47859 = 3510 more RS minutes than Chamberlain

Or in other words at 35769 career RS minutes, he's already ahead of Robinson, and has roughly two more seasons to match O'Neal and MJ.

Now those assumed numbers are arbitrary. We don't know how much he'll play, how well he'll age, if he'll get injured or when he'll retire. But the point is nonetheless clear. That PER isn't likely to fall that much (on the assumptions above he's getting close to 3/4s of the way through his RS career, so it would be hard to drag it down a lot) and there's a significant chance he amasses a significant longevity advantage on anyone more (or roughly as) productive as he was per minute. And as soon as you match each guy in minutes, whilst your career average falls the extra production is hardly something you penalise for.

[Texas Chuck]

^
calling the 11 mavs a top 5 team post 2015 is really silly.

Well yeah considering 2011 is prior to 2015......

That said, that Mavs team was record-wise and SRS-wise right there with the best of the league in the games Dirk was healthy. Their RS record took a hit when they lost their two best offensive players at the same time(Tuff Juice and Dirk) going 2-9 over an 11 game stretch before Dirk was back to something approaching full strength and their playoff resume speaks for itself beating a pretty good Portland team, destroying the 2x defending champ Lakers, making short work of the team that would represent the West in the Finals the following year in OKC, and beating a team with 2 of the 3 or 4 best players in the world in the Finals. Not many teams faced a tougher road to a title and I'm not sure any of the teams who faced a similar load fared so well losing only 5 games in 4 series.

IDK if I'd call them top 5, but if you took all the best teams of the last 15 years and put them in a tournament they aren't an easy out for any team. Just because no one expected that Mavs team to be that good doesn't mean they weren't.

[Jim Naismith]

1) Peak LeBron (2008-09) was the greatest single-season peak of all time, slightly ahead of 1999-00 Shaq and 1990-91 MJ.

On the PC board, how is this opinion unpopular? It's become a common opinion of this board.

Nonetheless, it is definitely a revisionist opinion. In the 2012 Peaks Project, 2009 LeBron was ranked 10th, between 2003 Duncan and 2004 Garnett.

[fuzzy_dunlop]

^
lol

and wrt the actual point, there's nothing in their statistical profile- RS, PO, RS + PO, whatever- to suggest they were an all time great team (and by that i mean say top 10 post 2000, obviously they were very good).

[tone wone]

- In a weird way, Klay Thompson's importance to GS is now underrated.
Im more impressed by their defensive talent/depth than the offense. I feel as though without his shooting their offensive effectiveness would drop more than their defense would without Draymond.

-Im not as high on Duncan as the rest of the world.
His late career resurgence hasn't swayed me as much others. I already ranked him pretty and I just dont see these last few seasons adding much.

- Shaq is historically underrated and the MDE tagline actually hurt his historical ranking.
He is to me the GOAT offensive bigman. Kareem is his only peer. His 1994 campaign is woefully under appreciated. Had a legit argument to being the best player in the league in '98. His impacted on winning has been consistently under played in retirement. I will never concede that Duncan was better.

- I think its crazy 2011 is considered Dirk's peak.
Every version from 2006-2011 would won a title that year.

[Greatness]

Kyle Korver is overrated, is not all-star worthy, and his impact gets overstated (JJ Reddick provides the Clippers with the same thing).

Kobe, while obviously overrated by casuals, is underrated here. He's a top 10 player and was the best player in the NBA from 2006-2008.

LeBron, at his peak, was a better defender than MJ or Pippen.

Chris Paul and Oscar are just as good as Magic.

Hakeem, KG, and Duncan are overrated. Malone, Barkley, Dirk, and Robinson were just as good as them.

The 2015 Warriors were not the best team in the NBA and were the luckiest team to win a title in recent history.

Anthony Davis is the best player in the NBA.

[Hawk]

I love this thread. I love to see so much disparity of opinions on different subjects I think that it is really healthy.

[ceiling raiser]

I love this thread. I love to see so much disparity of opinions on different subjects I think that it is really healthy.

Agree 100%. I see a lot of suggestions of group-think thrown around in other threads on the board, but I think for the most part people on here have very different opinions from one another on most issues.

[Texas Chuck]

^
lol

and wrt the actual point, there's nothing in their statistical profile- RS, PO, RS + PO, whatever- to suggest they were an all time great team (and by that i mean say top 10 post 2000, obviously they were very good).

Look I'm not convinced myself the Mavs are a top 5 team post-2000. Off the top of my head I would say they aren't. And they might not be top 10 either. I can freely admit I'm way too attached to that particular team to see them completely objectively.

That said, it would sure be nice if you gave more reasoning than "lol" . Maybe speak to the weaknesses you see in that team that keeps them out of the conversation or talk about some specific statistical metrics(since you kinda mentioned that) that you think hold them back.

I'd love to hear more opinions favorable or un on that Mavs title team, so I'd love for you to give some details on what keeps them from being a top 10 team in that time frame.

[bondom34]

I'll throw my last one out because I know its a common one, but I think there's become an over reliance on plus/minus numbers to the detriment of actual analysis. I agree with the above that Korver got overrated (was guilty of this myself) and think to an extent Green gets the same treatment. And while I'm on overrated guys, a few underrated ones for me include Tyson Chandler and Melo for entirely different reasons. Melo takes too much flack for a guy who's as good as he is, and is still a top player unless injury proves otherwise. Chandler at his current age can still anchor a solid defense if he's given anyone at all around him.

[Owly]

^
lol

and wrt the actual point, there's nothing in their statistical profile- RS, PO, RS + PO, whatever- to suggest they were an all time great team (and by that i mean say top 10 post 2000, obviously they were very good).

Look I'm not convinced myself the Mavs are a top 5 team post-2000. Off the top of my head I would say they aren't. And they might not be top 10 either. I can freely admit I'm way too attached to that particular team to see them completely objectively.

That said, it would sure be nice if you gave more reasoning than "lol" . Maybe speak to the weaknesses you see in that team that keeps them out of the conversation or talk about some specific statistical metrics(since you kinda mentioned that) that you think hold them back.

I'd love to hear more opinions favorable or un on that Mavs title team, so I'd love for you to give some details on what keeps them from being a top 10 team in that time frame.

Given there wasn't significant hostility/combatitiveness in the main text (above) I'm assuming the "lol" is in response to your

^
calling the 11 mavs a top 5 team post 2015 is really silly.

Well yeah considering 2011 is prior to 2015......

It's not unambiguous (or wholly clear on, particularly on first reading), but that's how I read it. I might be wrong.

On the substance of the Dallas thing, (as I think fuzzy raises) the question is perhaps why would someone think they're a top 5 or ten team post 2000.

If this is a starting point:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&year_min=2000&year_max=&franch_id=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=srs

Now here and elsewhere you've cited mitigating factors (primarily injuries) to suggest Dallas were better than their total RS numbers. Which is fair enough. But enough to consider them a >7.5 SRS calibre team (meaning Dallas were made to look more than 3 points worse per game than their "real" level over the entire season, such was the underperformance of that spell - obviously this would be assuming reg season SRS is the be all and end all and it isn't, but you get the idea)? Or is this based on a very heavy weighting of playoffs?

They caught fire at the right time. A sans Nowitzki span means their SRS is underselling them a little. And they won the title which can't be taken away from them. But but I think the onus would be on those wishing to claim Dallas were a top 5 or ten team since 2000.

[GSP]

I'll throw my last one out because I know its a common one, but I think there's become an over reliance on plus/minus numbers to the detriment of actual analysis. I agree with the above that Korver got overrated (was guilty of this myself) and think to an extent Green gets the same treatment. And while I'm on overrated guys, a few underrated ones for me include Tyson Chandler and Melo for entirely different reasons. Melo takes too much flack for a guy who's as good as he is, and is still a top player unless injury proves otherwise. Chandler at his current age can still anchor a solid defense if he's given anyone at all around him.

Great point. This is where the eye test can become underrated on this board. I've seen good posters here claim a well known player was overrated, not that good at something or didn't see their value/wasn't really that impactful etc. Then a set of RAPM data comes out showing that player looks really great and their opinion does a complete 180. I mean if u werent able to identify parts of said players game that made them so valuable in a 5 on 5 setting, lineup versatility, their positioning, playmaking, help defense etc then all of a sudden come to the conclusion that they are indeed great off numbers like that, it says some things about you level of critical analysis. It's not much different than boxscore watching IMO

[GSP]

Double post