Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[plonden]

Prime Gerald Wallace was a force of nature. I imagine most casual fans have overlooked his career because he's generally been on garbage teams. But G-Wall was a beast when he was younger, and, more importantly, when he was healthy (there's a reason his nickname was Crash). His best year was probably 2009-10 when he was with the Bobcats. He averaged 18.2 points, 10 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 1.5 steals, and 1.1 blocks on .484 FG%, .371 3PT%, and .776 FT%. He was second in defensive win shares that season and sixth in overall win shares. He made the All-Star Team. The Bobcats made the playoffs, although they were swept by Dwight Howard/SVG Orlando Magic, who eventually lost to Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals.

But I will always remember him for the reckless abandon with which he attacked the rim. Prime Crash had no regard for his own body. Here are some his dunk highlights. Some nasty dunks here, especially, numbers 7, 4, 2, and 1. Number 1 is insane!
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5On9-NS9rRc[/youtube]

[Stix]

Came by to see if there were any Markieff updates... then I see Gerald Wallace discussion.

[NavLDO]

The Suns won't win more than 30 games if they lose Keef and don't replace him with a starting calibre PF. Some of you are really, REALLY underestimating his importance on the court for this team.

You're right. I'm totally underestimating his league-leading 15 Technical Fouls, his 3.0 Personal Foul avg and 2.1 TO avg per game, his 31.8% 3PT%; and his 102 ORtg down from 111 the year before. Lord knows we have enough negative issues to deal with from last year, with Bledsoe's TOs and the like, but for every positive Kieff brings to the table, he has an opposite and equal negative force he brings to the table as well. And it's even worse now with his recent tweets. He was supposed to be counted on to bring leadership to the team, and all he did was bring technicals, PFs, and whining--and now we've got a Felony Assault charge to boot. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and while they may squirm their way out of this, there's no doubt in my mind that they had something to do with that beat-down.

No, the only thing fans are underestimating is his childishness and overemotional baggage that he and his brother bring to the table, and his most recent tweets are a testament to what we can expect going forward. By trading the MoBros, we've instantly subtracted 24 Technical Fouls. The Suns had 4 out of the top 14 players with Technical Fouls last season; the MoBros were 2 of the top 11 (And the fact that Marcus was the only non-starter in the group is quite telling as well). Unfortunately, Chandler was also amongst the top 11, so ridding ourselves of the MoBros' "contribution" to that end is actually a positive. The difference is, Chandler's and Bledsoe's positive impact somewhat make up for those--at least more so than Kieff.

http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/TechStatus.pdf

And as was mentioned, he may have been the 3rd best player on the team last year, but if one can't see how that fact, in and of itself, is a problem, then I need a pair of those Rose-Colored Glasses FrankLo posted a few weeks back. The fact is, Kieff would now be the 5th best player on the team if he manages to stay, behind Bledsoe, Knight, Chandler, and Len; and by the end of the season potentially 6th or 7th, depending on how Warren and Weems perform, so his importance to the team is not what it once was.

We've added Teletovic, Chandler, Weems, Leuer, Sims, and Jefferson to our Forwards/Center positions, and Price, Booker, and Burton to our backcourt. And in essence, we can add Knight to that list, since he really only played 11 games last season. Then add in the additional playing time we should expect from Warren this season, and I'd say we really have no idea how much impact Kieff would actually have one way or the other. But what we do know is that Kieff is now a distraction, and is bringing a lot of negativity to the plate--more so than he ever has in the past. So I ask, is what positive on-court impact he brings worth the negative off-court baggage he brings with him? I'd say the answer is pretty clear.

[RunDogGun]

Fouls and techs are subjective. That really boils down to the ref calling them, and their objectivity towards the Suns in general have been suspect over the years.

Turnovers, steals, and assists are a different story. I think his productivity will be missed at times, if not replaced adequately. Keef was very helpful down the stretch of games, and often could be seen as a go to player, when we often lacked one. Hopefully someone steps up if he is not replaced.

[tgtm_24]

My future is not in Phoenix, it's in a jail cell. - Markieff Morris

[RunDogGun]

My future is not in Phoenix, it's in a jail cell. - Markieff Morris

First off, I doubt he sees jail time. Second, if he did, wouldn't it be in PHX?

[lonea]

If you saw the suns games last season, there were few technical fouls which caused the suns a win.

Techs are huge, that's why Hornaeck implemented the benching rule.

It's the exact same reason why Dwight is still a bum.

Fouls and techs are subjective. That really boils down to the ref calling them, and their objectivity towards the Suns in general have been suspect over the years.

Turnovers, steals, and assists are a different story. I think his productivity will be missed at times, if not replaced adequately. Keef was very helpful down the stretch of games, and often could be seen as a go to player, when we often lacked one. Hopefully someone steps up if he is not replaced.

[RunDogGun]

If you saw the suns games last season, there were few technical fouls which caused the suns a win.

Techs are huge, that's why Hornaeck implemented the benching rule.

It's the exact same reason why Dwight is still a bum.

Fouls and techs are subjective. That really boils down to the ref calling them, and their objectivity towards the Suns in general have been suspect over the years.

Turnovers, steals, and assists are a different story. I think his productivity will be missed at times, if not replaced adequately. Keef was very helpful down the stretch of games, and often could be seen as a go to player, when we often lacked one. Hopefully someone steps up if he is not replaced.

Hornacek didn't like players complaining to the refs, which was the rule he implemented, it wasn't a no tech rule. He understands that techs are subjective. But again,many players complained to the refs over the season and didn't receive as many techs from the refs. Heck Draymond Green argues every call, throws his hands in the air in disgust at refs calls, and he rarely ever gets a tech, for the number of times he does it.

Any number of plays could have cost us games, narrowing it down to a tech or two seems rough by any basic standard.

As for Dwight being a bum, well that has zero relevance to the this discussion involving Markieff,but thanks for sharing?

[batsmasher]

In no way am I trying to downplay the impact of losing Kieff, but some of his stats from last season are pretty funny.

• PJ had a higher free throw rate than him.
• PJ had a higher rebound% than him.
• TJ and Archie had a higher ORB%.
• Kieff contributed the same number of WS/48 as TJ. Marcus and PJ both had higher WS/48.
• PJ had a higher VORP and BPM (including a higher offensive BPM)
• Kieff had less offensive win shares than his brother and.... you guessed it... PJ motherf**ing Tucker.

I still think Kieff was a big part of the way we played. He was our only legit post option and could stretch the floor. We're going to struggle mightily to fill that hole in the post.

[Cutter]

In no way am I trying to downplay the impact of losing Kieff, but some of his stats from last season are pretty funny.

• PJ had a higher free throw rate than him.
• PJ had a higher rebound% than him.
• TJ and Archie had a higher ORB%.
• Kieff contributed the same number of WS/48 as TJ. Marcus and PJ both had higher WS/48.
• PJ had a higher VORP and BPM (including a higher offensive BPM)
• Kieff had less offensive win shares than his brother and.... you guessed it... PJ motherf**ing Tucker.

I still think Kieff was a big part of the way we played. He was our only legit post option and could stretch the floor. We're going to struggle mightily to fill that hole in the post.

Please forgive me, but couldn't resist a little post editing.

I........................................................................................................................................................................struggle mightily to fill that hole.............

Please tell us more about problems Aussie men are having these days.

Just kidding Batsmasher all in good fun!

[lonea]

Uhhh, Hornaack didn't like players complaining because it was costing the suns games. Do you think he would care if the suns won those games ?

Sure, any number of lays could have cost us games. But losing a game due to techs is not acceptable, especially at a professional level.

It has everything to do with this conversation... You don't see the bum connection between Markieff and Dwight ? If you watch basketball, you would know about Dwight's high tech rate when he was in Orlando and not to mention all he did was whine until he was out of Orlando, then LA...

If you saw the suns games last season, there were few technical fouls which caused the suns a win.

Techs are huge, that's why Hornaeck implemented the benching rule.

It's the exact same reason why Dwight is still a bum.

Fouls and techs are subjective. That really boils down to the ref calling them, and their objectivity towards the Suns in general have been suspect over the years.

Turnovers, steals, and assists are a different story. I think his productivity will be missed at times, if not replaced adequately. Keef was very helpful down the stretch of games, and often could be seen as a go to player, when we often lacked one. Hopefully someone steps up if he is not replaced.

Hornacek didn't like players complaining to the refs, which was the rule he implemented, it wasn't a no tech rule. He understands that techs are subjective. But again,many players complained to the refs over the season and didn't receive as many techs from the refs. Heck Draymond Green argues every call, throws his hands in the air in disgust at refs calls, and he rarely ever gets a tech, for the number of times he does it.

Any number of plays could have cost us games, narrowing it down to a tech or two seems rough by any basic standard.

As for Dwight being a bum, well that has zero relevance to the this discussion involving Markieff,but thanks for sharing?

[Mr-Al]

In terms of deals involving Kieff you would have to think that Washington would be very interested. They also drafted Oubre who plays the same position

Any deal involving former #3 pick Otto Porter would be interesting to see as he played some PF last year and definitely has the size for it (just needs some weight) and shooting ability

[Saberestar]

In terms of deals involving Kieff you would have to think that Washington would be very interested. They also drafted Oubre who plays the same position

Any deal involving former #3 pick Otto Porter would be interesting to see as he played some PF last year and definitely has the size for it (just needs some weight) and shooting ability

I would say yes to that trade in a second...no way Washington trade Porter, he is a rising player with All Star potential.

[dmastro32]

Only person they might think of would be nene.

I would take Dudley and Nene for kief and Tucker

[m1chal]

Nene is almost done by now and Duds isn't better than Tucker. A bad deal overall unless we just want to get rid of that moron Kieff. Maybe with a 1st attached.

[bigfoot]

Suns training camp in Flagstaff again this year ... starts Tuesday September 29th ... just slightly over three weeks away.

http://azdailysun.com/sports/basketball/suns-will-return-to-flagstaff-for-training-camp/article_99acdcd8-9d11-5d12-b20a-e90879677d1c.html

[Mr-Al]

In terms of deals involving Kieff you would have to think that Washington would be very interested. They also drafted Oubre who plays the same position


Any deal involving former #3 pick Otto Porter would be interesting to see as he played some PF last year and definitely has the size for it (just needs some weight) and shooting ability

I would say yes to that trade in a second...no way Washington trade Porter, he is a rising player with All Star potential.

Only person they might think of would be nene.

I would maybe include Goodwin and/or the Cleveland pick as part of the deal

Although having Otto, Warren, and Tucker probably makes one of those players redundant, in which case you might consider a three team deal that sends Markieff + Tucker + whatever out for Otto + a starting PF somehow. probably not realistic

I would take Dudley and Nene for kief and Tucker

Nene is declining, injured, old, and expiring

Dudley isn't worth two pennies

and we're including Tucker?

ewwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Mr-Al]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ppam6h8


This trade gives us

Taj Gibson + Otto Porter for Tucker, Kieff, and Archie

[bwgood77]

Otto Porter isn't solving any of our PF problems.

[Mr-Al]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qzrh5qq

another one giving us Gibson + Otto without Archie being included