How good was prime Arvydas Sabonis?

[Kabookalu]

We don't know what Sabonis in his prime was like, however whenever I watch Jusuf Nurkic play I almost feel like I'm watching a worse and shorter version of a young Sabonis. Big body yet great mobility, awesome all around skills, not known for individual post scoring but still adequate there, solid jump shooter, and great passer. I realize that Nurkic's stats aren't impressive at all, but in some of his better games he's shown off insane potential, potential that I feel is reflective of what Sabonis may have been like in his prime, except significantly better.

If you think Jusuf Nurkic is a modern day Sabonis you don't know anything. Sabonis almost wheelchair ridden was still a high level NBA player and you are comparing him to a guy that when given a chance at a much younger age with an able body has proven to be nothing more than a bonafide scrub?

Yeah you might want to read what I said again.

[RalphWiggum]

We don't know what Sabonis in his prime was like, however whenever I watch Jusuf Nurkic play I almost feel like I'm watching a worse and shorter version of a young Sabonis. Big body yet great mobility, awesome all around skills, not known for individual post scoring but still adequate there, solid jump shooter, and great passer. I realize that Nurkic's stats aren't impressive at all, but in some of his better games he's shown off insane potential, potential that I feel is reflective of what Sabonis may have been like in his prime, except significantly better.

If you think Jusuf Nurkic is a modern day Sabonis you don't know anything. Sabonis almost wheelchair ridden was still a high level NBA player and you are comparing him to a guy that when given a chance at a much younger age with an able body has proven to be nothing more than a bonafide scrub?

Yeah you might want to read what I said again, this time with both eyes open.

If I were a fly and had hundreds of eyes I read it clearly. You compared a healthy young European that has been a marginal NBA player at best in limited minutes to an NBA player that probably had problems getting out of bed and was still a far above average player when he wasn't one quarter what he was before the USSR program ran him into the ground.

No I read it crystal clear.

Pretty girl avatars don't mean ish to me.

[useless]

Nurkic?

Nurkic in basketball court is like bull in china shop and Sabonis was genius on court. You could talk about Sabonis skills and they were good but what differed him from others Centers was his BB IQ. It was of charts.
The only comparable player stylistically in today basketball is Marc Gasol.

[Kabookalu]

If you think Jusuf Nurkic is a modern day Sabonis you don't know anything. Sabonis almost wheelchair ridden was still a high level NBA player and you are comparing him to a guy that when given a chance at a much younger age with an able body has proven to be nothing more than a bonafide scrub?

Yeah you might want to read what I said again, this time with both eyes open.

If I were a fly and had hundreds eyes I read it clearly. You compared a healthy young European that has been a marginal NBA player at best in limited minutes to an NBA player that probably had problems getting out of bed and was still a far above average payer when he wasn't one quarter what he was before the USSR program ran him into the ground.

No I read it crystal clear.

No you didn't. I said I feel like I'm watching a worse and shorter version of a young Sabonis when I watch Nurkic play, meaning I'm not comparing how good they are to each other, only comparing them stylistically. Sabonis at the same age is likely a significantly better player, but aesthetically they're pretty similar in some ways. Both are big bodies that are surprisingly mobile (Sabonis much bigger though). Both are very good passers (Sabonis more so). Both have range on their jumpers (Sabonis has more range though). And although relatively they're pretty skilled in a lot of facets of the game, they're really not known for ISOing their man, although Sabonis is capable.

Of course it's not a perfect comparison as far as their style of play goes, but I can't jive with the Gasol comparisons to Sabonis. Marc has never been anywhere near as athletic as a young Sabonis, and Pau has never been anywhere near as beefy. Nurkic on the other hand is pretty damn mobile for a guy that's as big as he is.

And I've already stated that Nurkic had a crappy rookie season. I'm not talking about that, only the flashes of potential he showed.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En2ThQ9vn2U[/youtube]

[RalphWiggum]

Nurkic?

Nurkic in basketball court is like bull in china shop and Sabonis was genius on court. You could talk about Sabonis skills and they were good but what differed him from others Centers was his BB IQ. It was of charts.
The only comparable player stylistically in today basketball is Marc Gasol.

And with all due respect to Marc Gasol who I love as a player he's not even close to surveying a court like Sabonis did.

[Kabookalu]

Nurkic?

Nurkic in basketball court is like bull in china shop and Sabonis was genius on court. You could talk about Sabonis skills and they were good but what differed him from others Centers was his BB IQ. It was of charts.
The only comparable player stylistically in today basketball is Marc Gasol.

That's fair to say, Nurkic doesn't think sometimes, although that's not indicative of his basketball IQ at all, he just lacks composure. Nurkic has high bball IQ, he just needs to make better decisions.

[RalphWiggum]

Nurkic?

Nurkic in basketball court is like bull in china shop and Sabonis was genius on court. You could talk about Sabonis skills and they were good but what differed him from others Centers was his BB IQ. It was of charts.
The only comparable player stylistically in today basketball is Marc Gasol.

That's fair to say, Nurkic doesn't think sometimes, although that's not indicative of his basketball IQ at all, he just lacks composure. Nurkic has high bball IQ, he just needs to make better decisions.

Stop comparing Nurkic to Sabonis. Its really simply, it comes down to that one with a few debatable exceptions is clearly an all time great, the other is Jusuf Nurkic?

[Kabookalu]

Nurkic?

Nurkic in basketball court is like bull in china shop and Sabonis was genius on court. You could talk about Sabonis skills and they were good but what differed him from others Centers was his BB IQ. It was of charts.
The only comparable player stylistically in today basketball is Marc Gasol.

That's fair to say, Nurkic doesn't think sometimes, although that's not indicative of his basketball IQ at all, he just lacks composure. Nurkic has high bball IQ, he just needs to make better decisions.

Stop comparing Nurkic to Sabonis. It really simply comes down to that.

Nah.

[the throg]

]i was watching one of those blazers vs. lakers playoff games and for almost the entire 1st qt shaq couldnt do anything offensively against sabonis..it wasnt until sabonis went to the bench and a 6'9" brian grant(who also probably weighed 80lbs less than shaq) that shaq went off..

[RalphWiggum]

That's fair to say, Nurkic doesn't think sometimes, although that's not indicative of his basketball IQ at all, he just lacks composure. Nurkic has high bball IQ, he just needs to make better decisions.

Stop comparing Nurkic to Sabonis. It really simply comes down to that.

Nah.

Well I clearly I need more Owl pics to make my case?

[Kabookalu]

Stop comparing Nurkic to Sabonis. It really simply comes down to that.

Nah.

Well I clearly I need more Owl pics to make my case?

Sure, or you could respond to the post that you haven't responded to yet.

[RalphWiggum]

]i was watching one of those blazers vs. lakers playoff games and for almost the entire 1st qt shaq couldnt do anything offensively against sabonis..it wasnt until sabonis went to the bench and a 6'9" brian grant(who also probably weighed 80lbs less than shaq) that shaq went off..

Very few of today's fans realize just how good even an over the hill Sabonis was. They are the same people who think Drake is better than Guru.

[RalphWiggum]

Nah.

Well I clearly I need more Owl pics to make my case?

Sure, or you could respond to the post that you haven't responded to yet.

I guess I should also start responding to posts that say blue sky's are actually dark? Go bait somebody else because this fish isn't taking the bait.

[the throg]

]i was watching one of those blazers vs. lakers playoff games and for almost the entire 1st qt shaq couldnt do anything offensively against sabonis..it wasnt until sabonis went to the bench and a 6'9" brian grant(who also probably weighed 80lbs less than shaq) that shaq went off..

Very few of today's fans realize just how good even an over the hill Sabonis was. They are the same people who think Lil Wayne is better than Guru.

guru and that jazzamatazz album is an all time classic...totally underrated..le bien,le mal...

[Kabookalu]

Well I clearly I need more Owl pics to make my case?

Sure, or you could respond to the post that you haven't responded to yet.

I guess I should also start responding to posts that say blue sky's are actually dark? Go bait somebody else because this fish isn't taking the bait.

What the hell is wrong with you, I gave you a full post about the arguments I made and you think I'm trying to bait you? I have no problem if you think the comparison is silly, and even I admit it is. I have a problem with you thinking I made a direct comparison with Nurkic to Sabonis when I compared them stylistically.

Marc Gasol is the best Sabonis comparison, but again I can't jive with it because it seems that comparison is aligning more towards Sabonis in his Blazers days when he was probably the most immobile man in the league, not towards his prime. I don't know how athletic he was in his prime, though we'd have to imagine he was significantly more mobile than his Blazers days, far beyond any athletic heights Marc Gasol has ever reached. And that's what will be the difference between being an all time great center and one as ephemeral as Marc Gasol, that athletic advantage. Other than the fact that he's a big man Gasol isn't physically imposing. We'd have to believe that Sabonis was.

The whole marvel about Sabonis isn't just about his passing skills, but that he's this massive 7'3 mobile athletic guy. If we compare him to just Marc Gasol we're limiting one half of what makes Sabonis legendary. Nurkic, yes it's an even more unfulfilling stylistic comparison, but let's not forget he hasn't even started his sophomore year yet who can improve significantly from hereon out.

I like the Nurkic comparison because if he can stop being an idiot he can be one of the best centers in the league. The only other 280 pounders that can move as well as him is Drummond and Cousins. He has range on his jumpshot, he has some skills in the post, he throws the jaw dropping pass every now and then. If he can improve his game, stop letting his temper get the best of him, he may very well supersede Marc Gasol as a player and be a rare big men that combines skill and physicality well together, something that apparently was what made Sabonis so famous.

[floppymoose]

I think Sabois in his prime might be MVP if he were in the league now. We are out of the iso era. Teams can zone up. That makes passing/ball-movement even more important and increases his value. He would have been a matchup problem for smallball lineups because he had the skills to eat them up on the offensive end - getting high percentage threes for his teammates if doubled, and scoring high percentage two's (and making his free throws) if not doubled; plus more mobility than most giants on the defensive end which would let him successfully patrol the interior in a switching zone.

[RalphWiggum]

Sure, or you could respond to the post that you haven't responded to yet.

I guess I should also start responding to posts that say blue sky's are actually dark? Go bait somebody else because this fish isn't taking the bait.

What the hell is wrong with you, I gave you a full post about the arguments I made and you think I'm trying to bait you? I have no problem if you think the comparison is silly, and even I admit it is. I have a problem with you thinking I made a direct comparison with Nurkic to Sabonis when I compared them stylistically. Let's not forget that Nurkic hasn't even started his sophomore campaign yet.

Marc Gasol is the best Sabonis comparison, but again I can't jive with it because it seems that comparison is aligning more towards Sabonis in his Blazers days when he was probably the most immobile man in the league, not towards his prime. I don't know how athletic he was in his prime, though we'd have to imagine he was significantly more mobile than his Blazers days, far beyond any athletic heights Marc Gasol has ever reached. And that's what will be the difference between being an all time great center and one as ephemeral as Marc Gasol, that athletic advantage. Other than the fact that he's a big man Gasol isn't physically imposing. We'd have to believe that Sabonis was.

I like the Nurkic comparison because if he can stop being an idiot he can be one of the best centers in the league. The only other 280 pounders that can move as well as him is Drummond and Cousins. He has range on his jumpshot, he has some skills in the post, he throws the jaw dropping pass every now and then. If he can improve his game, stop letting his temper get the best of him, he may very well supersede Marc Gasol as a player.

You could have just ignored everything I said and reduced your chances at carpal tunnel? You made one of the most asinine comparisons in basketball history, after that I stopped reading your post's. I''m sure others care about your further thoughts and you can have an intellectual debate with them about a scrub compared to an obviously superior basketball player. I myself have checked out and have no interest in carrying on this post with you.

[Kabookalu]

You could have just ignored everything I said and reduced your chances at carpal tunnel? You made one of the most asinine comparisons in basketball history, after that I stopped reading your post's. I''m sure others care about your further thoughts and you can have an intellectual debate with them about a scrub compared to an obviously superior basketball player. I myself have checked out and have no interest in carrying on this post with you.

You're not willing to listen, but you're willing to stick around, got it.

[RalphWiggum]

You could have just ignored everything I said and reduced your chances at carpal tunnel? You made one of the most asinine comparisons in basketball history, after that I stopped reading your post's. I''m sure others care about your further thoughts and you can have an intellectual debate with them about a scrub compared to an obviously superior basketball player. I myself have checked out and have no interest in carrying on this post with you.

You're not willing to listen, but you're willing to stick around, got it.

Welcome to the world of online arguments.

Please give me even a small reason to continue this this discussion considering the 2 parties you are trying to compara are equivalent to Michael Kidd Gilchrist vs Michael Jordan?

I'm sorry but the comparison you want to break down is not worth discussing. You might as well make an argument for why Tom Gugliotta is worth comparing to Larry Bird because both are white?

Two guys being European is not the starting ground for a rational argument?

[Effercon]

I posted this on Reddit:

This goes through 96-97, because from 97-98 onwards, I think he would've panned out the same way as he did in real life.
(Real-life career stats, by way of comparison: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sabonar01.html)
(For those who don't know, his prime was approximately 1985-93.)
Now, here's how I think it would've gone down.
1986-87: Comes over injured. Misses the whole season.
1987-88: Now healthy, he takes the league by storm. Despite ending his season early through injury, playing just 65 games, he wins Rookie of the Year by a landslide. Makes his first All-Star Game, which he also will from 1990-97. Portland get the #2 seed, but get knocked out by the Lakers in the WCFs. (Season stats: 22.9/12.2/3.1)
1988 offseason: Comes back early for the Olympics. Leads USSR to the gold, but re-injures his Achilles in doing so. Misses most of the 88-89 season. (This did happen in real life.)
1989-90: With Sabonis back again and healthy now, the true terror of prime Drexler/Sabonis is unleashed upon the rest of the league. Portland takes the #1 seed, winning 66 games. Sabonis wins MVP, then Finals MVP as Portland beat Detroit in the Finals. (Season stats: 25.4/13.3/3.4)
1990-91: Another great season, as they make it back to the Finals, but the rise of Michael Jordan is too much for Portland to overcome, and they fail to defend their title. Sabonis remains an MVP candidate, which he will until the 93-94 season, but doesn't, and will never win it, again. (Season stats: 24.7/12.9/2.9)
1991-92: Returning to the Finals, Portland withstand the barrage of threes by MJ to regain the title. Drexler beats Sabonis to Finals MVP, largely thanks to the narrative. (Season stats: 24.9/12.6/3.2)
1992-93: His last season as an MVP-caliber player, as the injuries he suffered in his youth start to catch up to him. Nevertheless, another outstanding regular season, but the Suns knock out the Blazers in the WCFs. With the rise of Hakeem and Robinson and the emergence of Shaq, Sabonis will never again be in the discussion for "best center in the league". (Season stats: 23.7/11.7/3.1)
1993-94: Now his decline begins. Portland only get to the WCSFs, where Hakeem's Rockets knock them out. For the first time since his rookie year, Sabonis will not start the ASG. He never will again. (Season stats: 21.8/10.5/2.6)
1994-95: The injuries start to catch up to him, but he is still productive, just scraping past the 20/10 mark. However, the Rockets knock out the Blazers in the WCSFs again, and with no Drexler now, it's getting very tough. This will be his last season as an elite player. (Season stats: 20.1/10.2/2.3)
1995-96: Sabonis now has his minutes lowered from 36-37 to 32 a game, due to the toll it's taken on his body. He still puts up good numbers, but he's now a shell of his former self. (Season stats: 18.6/9.8/2.4)
1996-97: For the last time, Sabonis makes it to the All-Star Game, but in the playoffs, the Blazers get knocked out by Kobe and Shaq's Lakers - something which would become familiar to him. (Season stats: 17.1/10.2/2.8)
1997-98 to end of career: Same as real life