Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[Mr-Al]

Otto Porter isn't solving any of our PF problems.

That's what Gibson + Otto is for

[NTB]

Otto Porter isn't solving any of our PF problems.

Why not? He will play as stretch four in Washington too. I think he is capable of playing as stretch PF.

[Mr-Al]

Otto Porter isn't solving any of our PF problems.

Why not? He will play as stretch four in Washington too. I think he is capable of playing as stretch PF.

Otto played as a PF a whole lot at Georgetown, he has more than enough length/height. Weight is a little thin but workable

[Stix]

Came by to see if there were any Markieff updates... then I see Otto Porter discussion.

[plonden]

Came by to see if there were any Markieff updates... then I see Otto Porter discussion.

Have you checked the thread dedicated to Markieff?

[RunDogGun]

Uhhh, Hornaack didn't like players complaining because it was costing the suns games. Do you think he would care if the suns won those games ?

Sure, any number of lays could have cost us games. But losing a game due to techs is not acceptable, especially at a professional level.

It has everything to do with this conversation... You don't see the bum connection between Markieff and Dwight ? If you watch basketball, you would know about Dwight's high tech rate when he was in Orlando and not to mention all he did was whine until he was out of Orlando, then LA...

First off can you stop with the "if you watch games, or Suns games", I've been following the Suns since 1978. I think it's safe to say that I've watch a ton of basketball, and Suns games.

Next, please don't speak for Hornacek, and then try and claim I'm the crazy one. He benched any player who argued with the refs, that was the rule he implemented. You were wrong, and I simply clarified it for you, without needing to insult you or your intelegence.

Since you continue with this, please provide the list of "games" in which the techs were the reason we lost game. If you can't, then please stop with this definitive attitude to your opinion.

Again, I still fail to see how Dwight received techs having any correlation to any other player, who also received techs. Man, if arguing or complaining with refs was in effect during the 80s and 90s many star players would have much more than Markieff did last year. I guess many players are bums?

Take note bgwood, I didn't use any insults, nor emoticons.

[Damkac]

Well training camp is just is a few weeks out. A good question is "are we better team than last year?"

At the beginning of last year we had

Bledsoe / IT
Dragic / Green
Marcus / Tucker
Kief / Tolliver
Plumlee / Len

Now we have

Bledsoe / Price
Knight / Weems or Goodwin or Booker
Tucker / Warren
Kief / Teletovic or Leuer
Chandler / Len

So the question is are we better or worse? The positives are

1) Knight will have had voluntary workouts and a training camp with his team mates.
2) Bledsoe has spent the summer working with his team mates unlike last year
3) No unhappy Dragic and IT
4) Tolliver and Plumlee never really brought much to the team last year
5) Chandler will bring leadership
6) Team defense should be much, much better without IT and Green
7) Team rebounding should be better
8) Any of Len, Warren, Goodwin, and Booker could make significant contributions / improvements
9) Half the stupid technical fouls are now in Detroit
10) Should have much better team chemistry

The negatives

1) Don't know if Kief is going to be a problem
2) Not sure if our bench has a scoring punch without Green and IT

On paper it looks much, much better to me.

I'm sure Suns will be better. Don't know if they have more talent but it's more balanced team and chemistry should be much much better (assuming Kieff is gone). Defence and rebounding should improve, we'll see how offense will look.

[jcsunsfan]

Notable additions: Knight, Chandler, Teletovic, Leuer, Booker

Notable subtractions: Goran, IT, Wright, Green, Marcus, Plumlee

Guard play: Bledsoe, Knight, Weems, Booker, Archie vs Bledsoe, Goran, IT, Archie, Green While last year's bunch looked more dynamic, the chemistry was poor. Goran resented Bledsoe, and IT was out to take someone's job. It should have meshed but it didn't. Bledsoe seems much more interested in taking a leadership role and Knight seems genuinely interested in playing with Bledsoe. Booker adds size and shooting, and Archie has another year of experience. Until we see production from Booker, I am calling it a wash.

Wings: PJ, TJ, Weems vs Marcus, PJ, TJ. This year is more interesting. TJ is going to get his shot. Until TJ starts producing on a regular basis, not sure if its improved.

PF: Keef, Tolliver vs Keef, Tele, Leuer. Improved, but it really depends on what happens with Keef.

C: Len, Plumlee/Wright vs Chandler, Len. I cannot see how this position has NOT improved except in depth. Much better here with the addition of Chandler and the continuing improvement of Len.

So. Really. It all depends on what happens with Markieff. If he can play and not be a dork, we are improved. If we can get another similar pf starter, we are improved. If we trade him for peanuts, we are worse.

[Damkac]

If Teletovic is healthy and can shoot 37% or better from 3 I'm content with him starting at PF. He may not be elite rebounder and defender but either isn't Markieff. Replacing Markieff's isolations and mid range shoting with stretch 4 should help guards slashing to the basket. Even if Mirza wouldn't score as much as Kieff, offence with him may be as effective or better.

Honestly, I would prefer starting Gorilla at PF than seeing Kieff in Suns jersey.

[NavLDO]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qzrh5qq

another one giving us Gibson + Otto without Archie being included

After my 15-20 trade proposals over the last week, I'm sure many are 'trade machined' out, but this would work. I didn't attempt any 3-team trade proposals myself, but this one works.

This is my impression going forward:

1. I have zero doubt that Kieff will be traded before the deadline in Feb, and probably a lot sooner. I think McD is waiting for the value and situation to be right.
2. All it takes is for one of 29 other starting PFs to go down early in the season and Boom Kieff's value just went up. Not a lot of other teams have a starting PF they are willing to trade.
3. Another 'turning point' in all this will be when the court case is resolved--no idea when that is, but saw an article that suggested that if they don't plea, it could go all the way into Feb.
4. I believe Kieff will be traded, unfortunately before his value is back to what it would've been the day before he was charged with assault. I hope McD is willing to wait until #2 above happens, but he may not be able to.

So, with all this in mind, I would wager that if we trade Kieff by himself, it will be for a veteran like Taj Gibson or Ryan Anderson--basically, a PF with less on-court 'value' than Kieff. Or, he will be traded for a couple of young developmental types, and while many would love one of those young developmental types to be Mirotic, Motiejunas, or Vonleh, it's likely to be more like an Adrian Payne, Sullinger, Jarell Martin, or Montrezl Harrell, or worse.

I think we all need to prepare ourselves for getting a crap return, and by that, I mean even worse than any of the names I just posted. If we can somehow walk away from a trade with a Patrick Patterson or Terrence Jones type, we should count our blessings and press, but somehow, I don't think we'll be that fortunate.

The other option would be to include 'more' from our end, like a player or pick, and honestly, I'd rather do that and obtain a starter-level PF. But unfortunately, I've got a bad feeling we're going to trade Kieff for a back-up PG or something--just, ugh...thanks Kieff!

[pvj22]

LOL. I Love the Subject Title! Why won't we trade him? ...it's cheaper to Kieffer!

He's a Kieffer! ....we can go on all day with these.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Morris stats were just as bad as Porter in his first 2 years. Doesn't make it a good idea to trade for them though.

[Frank Lee]

those are some buttass ugly uni's by ASU

[lonea]

HAHAHA. If you want to continue about Hornaeck, here you go.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/1/23/7880989/explaining-the-phoenix-suns-rule-on-being-benched-for-getting-td-up

Hornaeck benched players because the players argue with the ref ? Maybe here's why

Why would a coach make bad matters even worse by benching one of his best players for sticking up for himself to the referee? It's bad enough that you lose a point on the technical foul, but to lose the game as a result is madness.

Right?

Wrong, actually.

Prior to this new rule being in place, the Phoenix Suns led the league with 32 technical fouls called against them in just 41 games. The behavior was bad enough that our own Jim Coughenour asked in his 'Going Gorilla' feature if the Suns were dirty?

Eric Bledsoe and Markieff Morris lead the charge for the Suns with seven each, tied for second in the NBA. Right behind them are Marcus Morris and P.J. Tucker with four (tied for 12th). Goran Dragic (3), Gerald Green (2) and Isaiah Thomas (2) are also in the top 50.

That's seven of the Suns core nine players in the top 50. That's not good.

Here's one of the game which they lost due to techs.

The most recent was on New Year's Eve, when the Suns and Oklahoma City racked up a total of seven technical fouls. Markieff Morris and assistant coach Mike Longabardi were both rung up and Alex Len received a flagrant one right before halftime during a crazy sequence of events in which Russell Westbrook was ejected for taunting the Suns' bench.

The Thunder regained its equanimity during halftime, though, while the Suns piled up two more technical fouls in the second half. Tucker got one in the third quarter and Bledsoe was whistled for another with 5:07 remaining in the game. Kevin Durant made both freebies. The Suns lost the game in overtime. It was another addition to a list of tough losses that have defined this season.

How about another one ?

The next night, against San Antonio, the Suns were down by three points with 1:57 left in the game when both P.J. Tucker and Markieff Morris drew technicals for arguing with the referees, turning a 3-point deficit into 5. They were benched and never returned, and the Suns lost by 5 points.

So you want to argue about Hornaeck ... LOL

If you still can't see the correlation between Dwight and Markieff, then I don't know what to tell you.

Uhhh, Hornaack didn't like players complaining because it was costing the suns games. Do you think he would care if the suns won those games ?

Sure, any number of lays could have cost us games. But losing a game due to techs is not acceptable, especially at a professional level.

It has everything to do with this conversation... You don't see the bum connection between Markieff and Dwight ? If you watch basketball, you would know about Dwight's high tech rate when he was in Orlando and not to mention all he did was whine until he was out of Orlando, then LA...

First off can you stop with the "if you watch games, or Suns games", I've been following the Suns since 1978. I think it's safe to say that I've watch a ton of basketball, and Suns games.

Next, please don't speak for Hornacek, and then try and claim I'm the crazy one. He benched any player who argued with the refs, that was the rule he implemented. You were wrong, and I simply clarified it for you, without needing to insult you or your intelegence.

Since you continue with this, please provide the list of "games" in which the techs were the reason we lost game. If you can't, then please stop with this definitive attitude to your opinion.

Again, I still fail to see how Dwight received techs having any correlation to any other player, who also received techs. Man, if arguing or complaining with refs was in effect during the 80s and 90s many star players would have much more than Markieff did last year. I guess many players are bums?

Take note bgwood, I didn't use any insults, nor emoticons.

[lonea]

If you want to argue about how important a tech is to each game. Maybe you can take a look at this link.

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/nba-basketball-betting/1037358-average-point-spread-actual-nba-games-played.html

There is some variation from season to season, but the average margin of victory (across all games) hovers around 3.1ppg. Not vegas lines, but actual game results.

Based on the link I posted earlier, they were leading the league with 32 techs at 41 games. So... That's 10 games right there just lost based on the techs.

Uhhh, Hornaack didn't like players complaining because it was costing the suns games. Do you think he would care if the suns won those games ?

Sure, any number of lays could have cost us games. But losing a game due to techs is not acceptable, especially at a professional level.

It has everything to do with this conversation... You don't see the bum connection between Markieff and Dwight ? If you watch basketball, you would know about Dwight's high tech rate when he was in Orlando and not to mention all he did was whine until he was out of Orlando, then LA...

First off can you stop with the "if you watch games, or Suns games", I've been following the Suns since 1978. I think it's safe to say that I've watch a ton of basketball, and Suns games.

Next, please don't speak for Hornacek, and then try and claim I'm the crazy one. He benched any player who argued with the refs, that was the rule he implemented. You were wrong, and I simply clarified it for you, without needing to insult you or your intelegence.

Since you continue with this, please provide the list of "games" in which the techs were the reason we lost game. If you can't, then please stop with this definitive attitude to your opinion.

Again, I still fail to see how Dwight received techs having any correlation to any other player, who also received techs. Man, if arguing or complaining with refs was in effect during the 80s and 90s many star players would have much more than Markieff did last year. I guess many players are bums?

Take note bgwood, I didn't use any insults, nor emoticons.

[RunDogGun]

Ionea, did you really go through all of that just to prove what I said was true? Dude that was awesome! I said from the beginning that Hornacek benched players for arguing with the refs. You however, said that he did it because it was costing us games. Your proof, turned out to be my proof, way to go.

As for your games we happened to lose where we also received techs, you in no way provided proof that we lost those games because of said techs.

As for your crazy love obsession with Dwight Howard, well I'm sure you can see a doctor about it.

But thank you for the laugh, it's been a long offseason.

[RunDogGun]

Awesome, so the first game which was your proof we lost on techs was the New Year's Eve game against OKC? A game where OKC shot 14 more free throws than us? Are you implying we had 14 techs?

Next, in that game we had only one tech in the 4th quarter and overtime total. It was by Bledsoe. At that point we were losing by four 113-117, and after Durant made that tech, the score was 113-118. We came back to tie the game, and take it to overtime.

Now if your argument is that we continued to get the short end of the stick on calls, and our opponents continued to get a large margin difference from the free throw line, you will get no arguments from me. But to claim that we lost that game over techs, and not the complete fact that OKC shot 14 more free throws to win by three, well I think maybe it's you that haven't watched Suns' games.

Do I really have to research the other examples, which I can clearly tell that you have not?

[RunDogGun]

Great, so the next example against the Spurs, really? A game where Morris went 1-13, Thomas was 2-7, and Green went 7-18? Yet somehow you think, and whoever you quoted thinks we lost because of techs? By the way we missed seven free throws.

And I'm the one who needs to watch the games?

[TASTIC]

So I was doing some research for a fantasy podcast later this week - I'm doing the outlook for the Suns on Red Rock Fantasy Basketball pod on Thursday night, and I thought I'd look at Teletovic's career game log.

When he gets minutes, he's a bit of a beast and would be slightly weaker than we'd like in terms of rebounding and D at PF (but we know this, still higher rebs than Kieff!), but he's exactly what we want for a stretch 4. LOTS of attempts and high percentage with a lot of makes.

In his three seasons he's played 27 career games with at least 27 minutes played, coming out at an average of 30.6 minutes - a reasonable figure if he did end up the starter?

Check those threes out....Eek!

[DRK]