Peaks Project: #1

[Clyde Frazier]

Just checking in. Some good discussion so far. Busy today, so will be submitting my vote tomorrow.

Question: is the hesitancy to put kareem in the top 3 due to the fact that he peaked in the early 70s (or late 70s), or do you genuinely feel he just doesn't belong? I think he's deserving, but will do some more research before making a final decision.

[Joao Saraiva]

My votes:

1. Michael Jordan in 91
RS: 31.5 PPG 6 RPG 5.5 APG 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 2.5 TOPG 31.6 PER, 60.5ts% 32.1 WS/48. That statline is as crazy as it gets. Volume scoring is at great level, efficiency is awesome, TOs are low for his production, historic PER and WS/48 is also fantastic. And how about his SPG? 2.7 is great, and the great part is that watching him he actually defended very well, it was not gambling to compromise his D.

Playoffs: 31.1 PPG 6.4 RPG 8.4 APG 2.4 SPG 1.4 BPG 2.5 TOPG 32 PER 60%ts 33.3 WS/48. After a spectacular regular season, Jordan even raised his production in the playoffs! And not raising his TOs. Honorable mentions to his ECF against one of the best defensive teams ever: Pistons. MJ scored 29.8 PPG at 64.6ts% and assisted 7 times per game.

Also in the finals MJ had more APG than Magic until the last game of the series: Magic had 20 assists in that last game. Still MJ finishes the finals with 31.2 PPG and 11.4 APG at great efficiency.

I don't see many seasons with a case against this one. This was just an epic year by MJ.

2. 2009 LeBron James
I had a tough time picking it over James in 2012, and I have picked 2012 in the past. Anyway:
RS: 28.4 PPG 7.6 RPG 7.2 APG 1.7 SPG 1.1 BPG 3 TOPG 31.7 PER 59.1ts% and 31.8 WS/48. 66 wins in the regular season with a cast composed by old big Z, old Ben Wallace, Delonte West (average SG at best) and Mo Williams (Just see where Mo's career has gone after leaving Cle). I have to be impressed with that record. LeBron had arguably the quickest 1st step EVER, and he scored in the paint with a better % than Shaq at his peak. How insane is that? He was also #2 at DPOY, and it was well deserved.

Playoffs: 35.3 PPG 9.1 RPG 7.3 APG 1.6 SPG 0.9 BPG 2.7 TOPG 37.4 PER 61.8 ts% abd 39.9 WS/48. He was playing at GOAT level. His driving was superb, he was hitting huge shots, 3 pointers from half court, fade away 3s in the clutch and having some of his most amazing performances ever. Games 1 and 5 against Orlando were insane, and he also had a great great one vs Atlanta. He was eliminated against Orlando averaging 38.5 PPG 8.3 RPG 8.0 APG 1.2 SPG and 1.2 BPG at 59.1ts%. And that was against a team with DPOY Dwight, and with the #1 DRTG in the league. Volume/efficiency scoring is truly amazing, while doing everything else for his team.

Too bad this season didn't end up with the championship, because if it did it could actually be the one to challange MJ for the GOAT peak. I think it also can be challanged by 2012 LeBron. Game 4 vs Indiana, game 6 vs Boston and great finals where LeBron couldn't get his shot outside the paint going and still scored great volume on good efficiency. MVP, Finals MVP and another #2 at DPOY. Still I had to go with 09. That just shows you how great 09 was.

3. Shaquille O'Neal 2000
RS: 29.7 PPG 13.6 RPG 3.8 APG 0.5 SPG 2.8 BPG 2.8 TOPG 30.6 PER 57.8ts% 28.3 WS/48. Shaq just took a leap with his game playing under Phil Jackson. He was dominating in the paint like it was easy. 57.4 FG% is just amazing. Other teams had to double him in the post a lot of times, they had to foul him because if they didn't he would most likely get the 2 points, and if he got the ball deep in the post... It just seemed like either it was a basket, a foul, or both! Very few teams could SLOW him down. When I say slow it's not playing bad, it's just make him seem human instead of superman.

Playoffs: 30.7 PPG 15.4 RPG 3.1 APG 0.6 SPG 2.4 BPG 2.4 TOPG 30.5 PER 55.6ts% 22.4WS/48. He started against SAC. Divac and Webber are a great frontcourt, and gave the Lakers a competitive series. They grabbed between themselves 16.8 RPG. But Shaq ALONE outrebounded them, at 17.4 RPG. He also blocked 13 times in those series, while Webber and Divac combined for 14 blocks. That while scoring 29.4 PPG. Then 30.2 PPG and 16.2 RPG against the Suns. Simply dominant. Then 4-3 against Portland with great games and bad games. Still averaged 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG. That shows you how great he was, 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG was subpar for Shaq in the playoffs! And then in the finals... Indiana just had no frontcourt capable to guard Shaq (like that was something easy to find...). 38 PPG 16.7 RPG 2.7 BPG and only 13 turn overs in 6 games! 61.1FG%. Rewatching this finals will show you the spell of dominance Shaq had at his peak. He has a case for the best finals ever.

[Mutnt]

I'm not sure Lebron would have been capable of 31+ PER's and .300+ WS/48 if he was getting double and triple-teamed (and mauled) nearly every possession.

You can't double team LeBron, he would destroy you.

Let's make one thing clear once and for all.

Double-teaming is a specific type of strategy that works against specific types of players. You also have different degrees of double-teaming. You can either double team aggressively - that is, borderline maul the offensive player with a goal to get the ball out of his hands or double team passively - that is, send another body as a roadblock to prevent the offensive player to get to his comfort spots (but not to get rid of the ball). That's what teams were doing to Shaq mostly, they basically send an extra player to the vicinity to limit Shaq's options of getting into his sweet spots. When defenses double team perimeter players is mostly to take the ball out of their hands and effectively render them off-ball and make someone else create.

Now, if you DON'T receive double teams, it's either because of 2 things. You're not good enough, or you're too good and versatile offensively to the point that double teaming would be suicidal. Shaq can be effectively doubled because he's not gonna beat you with the dribble, he can't face up, he can't shoot, and he's not an elite passer. His options on-ball are strictly limited to backing you down into the basket with the ball or pass it out. That's it. And the defense knows this so they can double accordingly.

Additionally, Shaq's defense in '00 was pretty excellent. Lakers had the #1 defense in the league that year (better even than the Duncan/DRob-led Spurs), in a no small part thanks to their anchor.

Heh. Also no small part to Horry who as always underrated defensively during his career and shoutout to Harper/Kobe, at the time probably the most athletic and best defensive guard tandem and A.C Green was a solid defender as well. I agree that most credit should be given to Shaq but that team had plenty of capable defensive players.

'09 Cleveland had the #3 defense in the league and besides LeBron, there was like 1300 minutes of Ben Wallace and let's say Varejao, who wasn't quite Horry level, but at least he tried some. Kobe/Harper vs. Delonte/Mo isn't even comparable from a defensive stand-point. Ok, Delonte was at least serviceable but Mo was below average for an NBA player. Big Z who could be argued had less defensive impact than freaking A.C. Green. I think you know what I'm trying to say.

I mean...

DWS:

'00 Shaq - 7.0
'09 LeBron - 6.5

DBPM

'00 Shaq - 3.5
'09 LeBron - 3.6

DRAPM

'00 Shaq - 2.3
'09 LeBron - 2.8

Take it for what it's worth.

And Kobe aside, I'm not overly impressed with the supporting cast on the Lakers that year: Kobe is excellent defensively this year, but is decidedly BEFORE his offensive game had crested (he also missed 16 rs games and 1 playoff game that year). The 3rd-best player is an early post-prime Glen Rice; 4th-best is probably either an ancient Ron Harper or Robert Horry (who was only playing 6th-man minutes). Next best is an ancient A.C. Green, and then there's a scattering of pretty mediocre characters after that. He led this squad to not only the best defensive rating, but the 5th-rated offense, 67 wins (+8.41 SRS) and a title (and they had to go thru a really solid Trailblazer team to get there, too).

Stop, that team was way better than '09 Cavs. Not even comparable. Don't make me break down the garbage on that team.

[Jim Naismith]

It seems that some people in this thread are engaging in some post-hoc overpraise of the 2009 Orlando Magic.

None of the experts picked the Magic to beat the Cavs: http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

It bears repeating again: The Magic beating LeBron's Cavs was a huge upset.

[Mutnt]

It seems that some people in this thread are engaging in some post-hoc overpraise of the 2009 Orlando Magic.

None of the experts picked the Magic to beat the Cavs: http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers

It bears repeating again: The Magic beating LeBron's Cavs was a huge upset.

Experts, lol.

Nah, it wasn't a huge upset. The Cavs were a typical example of a team that thrived in best of 1+s, regular season, semi-exhibition type games. As soon as it was a full series against an elite team it was always gonna be curtains because the team was too one-dimensional and easily exploited + a lot of players (hi Mo Williams) just shat the bed completely.

Anyway, the Cavs was basically boosted by LeBron into elite status pretty much single-handedly. Historically, go take a look what type of teams are winning 65, 60 games per regular season. Usually incredibly stacked teams, all-time great teams even. And then go back and look at the Cavs roster again.

[SactoKingsFan]

It seems that some people in this thread are engaging in some post-hoc overpraise of the 2009 Orlando Magic.

None of the experts picked the Magic to beat the Cavs: [url]http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers[/url]

It bears repeating again: The Magic beating LeBron's Cavs was a huge upset.

You think LeBron had a better supporting cast than Dwight?

[Jim Naismith]

It seems that some people in this thread are engaging in some post-hoc overpraise of the 2009 Orlando Magic.

None of the experts picked the Magic to beat the Cavs: [url]http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers[/url]

It bears repeating again: The Magic beating LeBron's Cavs was a huge upset.

You think LeBron had a better supporting cast than Dwight?

LeBron's was weaker (as the playoffs showed), but the Magic were without their starting point guard Jameer Nelson.

[ceiling raiser]

Just checking in. Some good discussion so far. Busy today, so will be submitting my vote tomorrow.

Question: is the hesitancy to put kareem in the top 3 due to the fact that he peaked in the early 70s (or late 70s), or do you genuinely feel he just doesn't belong? I think he's deserving, but will do some more research before making a final decision.

No clue. Maybe posters aren't as high on his defense during his peak offensive seasons (~77)? I think I have KAJ in my top 5 peaks at the least.

BTW 93 Hakeem isn't getting traction here it seems, but just wanted to link some videos to get his name out there. I think watching highlights paints a very incomplete picture in general, but he consistently handled doubles (and at times triples) pretty well this year.

LAC G1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsUuNiJx7RU
LAC G3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElcwAeZctjo
LAC G5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i1zXv_YEQI
SEA G1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XufDvJH9R2M
SEA G2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DPwNFfaweY
SEA G3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NowzC8RmCFQ
SEA G4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwhLDhGKOE
SEA G6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k2k7UOz6KA
SEA G7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

lorak has mentioned that 93 SEA and 94 NYK were two of the best defensive series he's seen (obviously those are two different years, though I think people are split on which year they have as Hakeem's peak).

[MyUniBroDavis]

Who do you think was the better defender? Were both DPOY contenders? Shaq was, but I don't know about Wilt.

Shaq was for sure, as you said (he has a very strong case over Zo for 2000 DPOY), and the Sixers finished 3rd of 10 teams on defense in 1967, they had 93.9 DRtg, Russell's Celtics led the league with 91.0.

I would say this - it's hard to be a real DPOY contender if Bill Russell is in the league at the same time, if you know what I mean. But, without Russell, Wilt would have a good case (Thurmond was probably a little bit better than Wilt on D, though).

What's interesting is that Wilt and Shaq had the EXACT same regular season Defensive Win Shares in those seasons, both at 7.0. I think they are very comparable, though obviously I watched a lot of games of Shaq, and almost none of Wilt...

Well, In my opinion, a case can be made against Wilt's overall offensive impact, at least compared to other years.

in terms of impact correlative to league average, along with some by continuity stats (basiclaly using it as a baseline)
on offense alone
his team pre rookie 3.5 below league average
rookie 2.4 below league average +1.1
the next year they got al attles and ed conlin
that year, they were 0.9 below league average + 1.5
The next year they got Tom Meschary
that year, they were 0.9 above league average, though the continuity rate was below 70%, and that is probably a factor + 1.8
the next year, 0.7 below league average - 1.6
the next year, 1.6 below league average - 0.9
the next year, he had a heart problem, though he posted his 2nd best raw stats that year, 5.9 below league average -4.3 (he was traded midway through the season as well. they went from 6 to 0.8 better than league average in defensive rating)
Realistically, in that year, there are 2 arguments that can be made
1,hist stats didnt contribute to wins
2, he simply wasnt trying
arguement 2 completely changes his peak view point. arguement 1 basically does nothing.

Defensively he had some effect.

obviously, he barely made any changes when he first went to San Fransisco,

0.8 worse than league average on defense, from 0.8 below before he left
0.5 better than league average on offense, from 2.9 below leage average the year before
Granted, he came midway through the season, and its doubtful that there was a huge jump considering their record beforehand was just a game below 500.
btw, rick barry went to the sfw team the year after, and considering that he came, the continuity rate was 74%, primarily because of him (probably 6-7%) and wilt leaving. their offense was 2.3 below league average. rookie rick barry was a really good player though, averaged 26 ppg, 11 rebounds, on 44% shooting. if we go with theory 2, it was a 0.7 dropoff from the year where he "tried" though I personally believe in theory 1 (a 5.9 dropoff from the year where he "tried" and when rick barry came, when it came to defense. and a 6.6 dropoff overall from the 2 players).
the next year
0.4 above league average on offense, 3.4 better than league average on defense
the next year, which is the year where we are discussing. his continuity rate was 74% btw, in the yelllow, but only by a few percent
the next year
5.4 above league average on offense, 2.2 better on defense
the next year, with a similar playstyle (he wasnt as good though)
1.3 above league average on offesnse. 5.6 above leage average on defense
when he left, 3 players were traded, mostly 10 ppg 20 minute splayers, and 1 player served hi scountry and didnt play for the next 2 years
2.6 above league average on offense, 1.6 better than league average on defense
his laker years are well documented, statistically at least.
So his team was arguably already pretty decent when he left. imo, it might have been a mixture of continuity, and I feel the players were probably getting better (they seemed to be a fairly young team, with a few exceptions)

so I guess we should round it up to a 3.5 + on offense and a 1 + on defense otherwise (im usin gthe year he left as a guideline)
(greer was in his early 30s though, so im not sure if anyone "came into their own")

switch over to Jordan
4.9 above league average in the 93 season, 1.9 better on defense
0.2 below league average in the 94 season, where Pippen really came into his own imo.
3.6 better on defense.
So a 4.7+ on offense and a - 1.7 on defense. continuity was 57% so this is questionable though
(defensively, pippens box plus was pretty much at its peak)
considering how low the continuity
so lets look at another example
again, the continuity in this one is questionable, but I guess this is a great example.(47%)
3.6 above on offense and 3.5 above on defense to
5.1 below on offense, 4.5 below on defense
a ridiculous 8.7 increase on offense and a 8.0 incresae on defense. .!.
and yes, that last part was a full sentance.
this is when lebron left
last year in miami
+4.2 on offense
+0.9 on defense
when he left
- 1.7 on offense
- 0.9 on defense

Injuries obviously played a part, and a 50% continuity rate speaks for itself.

Personally, because of continuity, especially in the modern era (complexity of plays today, the faster game in terms of in a half court setting) I dont usually weigh first years and first years after a trade very much. His first laker year was pretty ineffective to sum it up.

Shaq with magic (obviously, not his peak, and once again, continuity is low, in the 60s)
Magic in shaqs last year
+5.3 on offense
+0.7 on defense

When he left
-1.1 on offense
+0.7 on defense

So, to sum it up
Lets be honest, Wilt didnt give up on the organization. It was probably a mixture of things. I would like to ask though, how did htey go 17-65. Honestly, even if he did, rick barry made up for the loss on offense. though the arguement could be made that his peak was the 50 ppg. Anyway, for the sake of the arguement, lets say he peaked in his 76ers year. the continuity rate was hihg

continjuity rate is low
But anyway, in terms of impact
results vary due to continuity

Anyway
Wilt + 4.5 ish rounded
actually was 2.7
Jordan +3, though pippen improved
lebron 16.7 + and 7.7 +
Orlando Shaq 6.4+

[trex_8063]

I'm not apart of this, but I can still post my opinions, right?

The discussion is essentially open to anyone/everyone.

If you want to participate by way of officially casting ballots, we simply require a stated desire to do so, as well as demonstrated desire and ability to contribute to the larger discussion (see "Peaks Project Interest and Metathinking" thread, especially posts #'s 1, 82, and 89 for specs).

[trex_8063]

I'm not sure Lebron would have been capable of 31+ PER's and .300+ WS/48 if he was getting double and triple-teamed (and mauled) nearly every possession.

You can't double team LeBron, he would destroy you.

Let's make one thing clear once and for all.

Double-teaming is a specific type of strategy that works against specific types of players.

I agree to an extent. To some degree it's somewhat a function of position played (much easier to double-team a back-to-the-basket post player than a perimeter player).
But I don't exactly agree that Lebron could "destroy" a team should they decide to throw double-teams at him. I remember commenting on this forum after game 3 of this most recent finals about whether or not Kerr was going to start making a few adjustments, like throwing some double-teams at Lebron. And sure enough he did.

Now that's not to say that the supporting cast Lebron had at his disposal in this most recent finals was even as good as his '09 supporting cast. He was a little stuck when his best options to pass off to were guys like Tristan Thompson or streaky JR Smith.

And I [somewhat] disagree that peak Shaq wasn't an elite (or at least "very good") passer for a center. But outside of Kobe and maybe Rice, he just didn't have much in the way of decent offensive options to pass out to.

Additionally, Shaq's defense in '00 was pretty excellent. Lakers had the #1 defense in the league that year (better even than the Duncan/DRob-led Spurs), in a no small part thanks to their anchor.

Heh. Also no small part to Horry who as always underrated defensively during his career and shoutout to Harper/Kobe, at the time probably the most athletic and best defensive guard tandem and A.C Green was a solid defender as well. I agree that most credit should be given to Shaq but that team had plenty of capable defensive players.

Not sure we're actually disagreeing on anything here. I acknowledged somewhere within that post that Kobe was an excellent perimeter defender that year (though he missed 20% of the season). Harper was always solid on that end, too, but he was a bit long in the tooth at this point (ditto AC Green). Horry was indeed underrated defensively, but only playing 22 mpg, so......
Shaq appears to be the biggest factor in them achieving the #1 rated defense that year, is all I'm saying.

'09 Cleveland had the #3 defense in the league and besides LeBron, there was like 1300 minutes of Ben Wallace and let's say Varejao, who wasn't quite Horry level, but at least he tried some.

I'd give Varejao a tiny bit more credit than that. He was pretty solid defensively, imo: hustled, totally decent on the defensive glass, very good pnr defender, got a few steals/blocks.....+2.59 PI DRAPM that year, too.

Kobe/Harper vs. Delonte/Mo isn't even comparable from a defensive stand-point. Ok, Delonte was at least serviceable but Mo was below average for an NBA player.

Agree.

Big Z who could be argued had less defensive impact than freaking A.C. Green. I think you know what I'm trying to say.

Don't know that I agree there. Zydrunas was a reasonable (if not quite "good") defensive rebounder, avg 1.7 blk per 36 minutes (despite the terrifically slow pace the Cavs played that year: 2.6 blk/100 possessions), and had a PI DRAPM of +2.02 (which is significantly better than Green's in '00).

I mean...

DWS:

'00 Shaq - 7.0
'09 LeBron - 6.5

DBPM

'00 Shaq - 3.5
'09 LeBron - 3.6

DRAPM

'00 Shaq - 2.3
'09 LeBron - 2.8

Take it for what it's worth.

My source has '00 Shaq PI DRAPM at +2.31; same source has Lebron's at only +2.16 (one other source I use has Lebron at +2.5.....this source doesn't have data for '00); none of my sources have his DRAPM at 2.8, fwiw.

And Kobe aside, I'm not overly impressed with the supporting cast on the Lakers that year: Kobe is excellent defensively this year, but is decidedly BEFORE his offensive game had crested (he also missed 16 rs games and 1 playoff game that year). The 3rd-best player is an early post-prime Glen Rice; 4th-best is probably either an ancient Ron Harper or Robert Horry (who was only playing 6th-man minutes). Next best is an ancient A.C. Green, and then there's a scattering of pretty mediocre characters after that. He led this squad to not only the best defensive rating, but the 5th-rated offense, 67 wins (+8.41 SRS) and a title (and they had to go thru a really solid Trailblazer team to get there, too).

Stop, that team was way better than '09 Cavs. Not even comparable. Don't make me break down the garbage on that team.

Let's not get defensive (or nasty).
The Lakers supporting cast was better at #2 (Kobe vs. Mo Williams, obv no contest), and probably better at #3 (Glen Rice vs. either Anderson Varejao or Big Z).....but imo Bron's supporting cast in Cleveland was likely better at #4 thru #8 than Shaq's in LA.

I'll give Shaq the edge for better supporting cast, but I don't think it's by some massive margin at all. And he yielded a better team result with it, too (similar in rs, but title vs. CF elimination), so......I'm not seeing that as a clear dividing line.

[Gregoire]

My take about it. I speak about "playoffs version of player in vacuum", so Its not about resume, but about capacity and ability.

1) 1st ballot selection: Michael Jordan 1991

Positives:

- Overall best offensive player s ever (along with peak Magic and Bird)
- Biggest mismatch ever IMO for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (maybe the best ever at this)

Negatives:

- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmentality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates

2) 2nd ballot selection: Lebron James 2013

Positives:

- Great playmaker, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Great passer and willing one
- Versatile defender (Pippen –like)
- Maybe best ever transition offense , maybe best ever transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most versatile overall offensive player ever (maybe)
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability

Negatives:

- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Less dominant scorer than MJ and Shaq
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

3) 3rd ballot selection: Shaquille O'Neal 2000

Positives:

- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four in the post, huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field) and good passer with few TO
- Draw most doubles maybe ever, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post

Negatives:

- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups.
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

If we talk about SRS terms:

MJ 91 - 7,5 + 2,5
Lebron 13 - 7,0+ 2,75
Shaq 00 - 6,75 + 3,0

[RSCD3_]

My take about it. I speak about "playoffs version of player in vacuum", so Its not about resume, but about capacity and ability.

1) 1st ballot selection: Michael Jordan 1991

Positives:

- Overall best offensive player s ever (along with peak Magic and Bird)
- Biggest mismatch ever IMO for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (maybe the best ever at this)

Negatives:

- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmentality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates

2) 2nd ballot selection: Lebron James 2013

Positives:

- Great playmaker, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Great passer and willing one
- Versatile defender (Pippen –like)
- Maybe best ever transition offense , maybe best ever transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most versatile overall offensive player ever (maybe)
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability

Negatives:

- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Less dominant scorer than MJ and Shaq
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

3) 3rd ballot selection: Shaquille O'Neal 2000

Positives:

- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four in the post, huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field) and good passer with few TO
- Draw most doubles maybe ever, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post

Negatives:

- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups.
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

How the guy played 40 MPG in the RS, would have led the league in recent years and hiked that up to 42+ In the 2000 playoffs. He had great stamina for a big man especially this year.

[Gregoire]

Personally, I echo what Dr. Spaceman observed, in that the stylistic differences between the two wings and Shaq make it so that it is difficult to seperate the Jordan/Lebron pairing, i.e any ranking that puts Shaq's peak above Lebron's should also put it above Jordan's, and vice-versa.

However, it would be prudent to think very seriously about what exactly are we trying to compare here, a phrase that an admin put on the site "impact = goodness + fit" describes this in a nutshell, this distinction is very important, for example, '13 Lebron may have more "goodness" than 09 Lebron (more well-rounded game, better off-ball), but because of lesser "fit" (presence of on-ball playmaker in '13 vs loads of shooters in '09), his impact may very well be less in '13 than '09. I personally define the peak as impact in an individual season, but this is something interesting for the posters on this thread to think about.

I think its simplification to put together MJ/Lebron against Shaq. I think there are a lot of aspects (other than position on court) which separated MJ from Lebron but gravitate each of them to Shaq. For example MJ and Shaq was dominant scorers primarly which had "gravitation effect" primarly (Lebron had it too, but he was (is) playmaker for first in some extend). Another example - Kebron and Shaq are primarly "at rim" dominators, while MJ (being just as dominant at rim too) was "everywhere thread".

[Gregoire]

Playoff opponent DRTG

Jordan
Knicks - 107.3 DRTG
Sixers - 108.1 DRTG
Pistons - 104.6 DRTG
Lakers - 105.0 DRTG
Average - 106.3 DRTG

Lebron
Pistons - 108.0 DRTG
Hawks - 107.6 DRTG
Magic - 101.9 DRTG
Average - 105.8 DRTG

Shaq
Kings - 102.1 DRTG
Suns - 99.0 DRTG
Blazers - 100.8 DRTG
Pacers - 103.6 DRTG
Average - 101.4 DRTG

Shaq played much tougher defenses than Jordan and Lebron in the playoffs

I think we should consider not only defense overall, but defensive at perticular postion. And obviously overall team strenght (weak team offense allowed to converse more energy for your own offense). And if we talk about team D IMO defensive rating is very era and pace-dependent, so we should usemore compex approach.

[Gregoire]

Also: LBJ and Jordan were great perimeter defenders. And when they turned it up trapping and stealing, they were unstoppable. But in terms of per-possession Impact over the long run, can you really argue either of them over peak Shaq defensively?

I think MJ and Lebron could be argued as better defensive units (I consider Shaq a little better) with same easyness like Shaqs offense could be argued over them. And considering as tie-braker offense> defense (individually) IMO they both had the arguments.

I will post here your rankings from Dec 22, 2013. IYou had both MJ and Lebron over Shaq. Here are your arguments:

"Was asked by the OP to provide my top 10 list, so here goes:

Since OP asked for the best straight on-court impact, I focused on when each player was at their absolute best, really without regard for accolades and team success. (obviously, some winning bias is unavoidable.) I would always choose the higher impact year than the most impressive year.

1. Lebron James 2012-13
GOAT Offensive player to me. With Lebron, you have the highest chance of getting the best possible shot on any given possession. To me, that defines the best offense. (Reflected in Miami being #1 all-time in EFG%; what better measure of offense is there than putting the ball through the hoop?) Definitely the most versatile player on this list, top 2 playmaker, his game is so varied that he can fill a ton of roles on a team. I don't see a ceiling for a Lebron James-led offense.

2. Michael Jordan 1990-91
After a little deliberation, I decided to put Michael slightly above Shaquille, although in my mind there is just not enough to separate the two. Ultimately, I have them in a tie at two, although if you were to put a gun to my head, I guess I'd take Jordan, simply because I think it's easier to just hand him the ball and say "get me a basket."

3. Shaquille O'Neal 1999-2000
Everything that can be said about his peak has been said already. He and Jordan are the most unstoppable individual forces to ever grace the court.
..."

[Gregoire]

How the guy played 40 MPG in the RS, would have led the league in recent years and hiked that up to 42+ In the 2000 playoffs. He had great stamina for a big man especially this year.

If we compare these 3 guys, Shaq is obviously clealry last in terms of stamina.

[RayBan-Sematra]

How the guy played 40 MPG in the RS, would have led the league in recent years and hiked that up to 42+ In the 2000 playoffs. He had great stamina for a big man especially this year.

If we compare these 3 guys, Shaq is obviously clealry last in terms of stamina.

Be that true or not it doesn't change the fact that Peak Shaq had ultra elite stamina.
He averaged 44-mpg in the playoffs and set the record for highest ever 4th quarter PPG average in the Finals (11.5ppg).

He had a tremendous motor that year and he was regularly going hard at the end of games when others were getting worn down.

I see no reason to say that the other two had better stamina (well Jordan probably did) but in general they all had elite stamina so it isn't even worth mentioning.

[RSCD3_]

How the guy played 40 MPG in the RS, would have led the league in recent years and hiked that up to 42+ In the 2000 playoffs. He had great stamina for a big man especially this year.

If we compare these 3 guys, Shaq is obviously clealry last in terms of stamina.

Be that true or not it doesn't change the fact that Peak Shaq had ultra elite stamina.
He averaged 44-mpg in the playoffs and set the record for highest ever 4th quarter PPG average in the Finals (11.5ppg).

He had a tremendous motor that year and he was regularly going hard at the end of games when others were getting worn down.

I see no reason to say that the other two had better stamina (well Jordan probably did) but in general they all had elite stamina so it isn't even worth mentioning.

RBS are you in this project? I've always like to here your thoughts on this? I know you frequently compare Shaq to other bigs but curious why ( assumedly ) you would have peak Shaq over Jordan.

[Gregoire]

Guys I'm considering here (in no particular order):

00 Shaq
77 Kareem
93 Hakeem
92 Jordan
Maybe a LeBron season (13?)

Perhaps the Admiral will end up on my ballot too. I have a feeling Spaceman will make a great case for him sooner than later.

Note: As I said in the announcement thread, consistent with how I've felt in the last few months in general, I don't really feel comfortable ranking players pre-Kareem. Just not enough footage available for me to cast judgment. So by excluding a bunch of 60s greats from my ballots I am not trying to disrespect them. Rather, I'm trying to put together a list I'm confident in (from a perspective that I'd draft these player seasons in a certain order with a gun to my head, leaving no room to guess incorrectly), and based on the limited tape available, that won't be the case if I include those legends.

Why no Wilt 67? IMO he is clearly top-5 peaks, maybe top-3.