Peaks Project #4

RSCD3_ · Post #21 » by **RSCD3_** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:11 pm

For the second ballot in a roll I've had a heel face turn

1. 03 Tim Duncan

Had a great regular season. Notched it up ridiculously in the playoffs. I'll show many examples here and for kicks compare him to the very similarly talked about season of Hakeem 94's playoffs.

RS

31.6 PP100 on 56.4 TS% (+4.5% above league average )

Playoffs

30.6 PP100 on 57.7 TS% (+5.7% above league average )

Playoff Hakeem

35.9 PP100 on 56.8 TS% (+4.0 TS% above league average. )

Slight edge to Hakeem for holding more volume at around the same efficiency.

Rebounding

Regular season 17.5 RP100 on
9.9/27.3/19.0 RB% Splits

Playoffs 19.5 RP100 on
10.3/28.7/19.8 RB% Splits

Playoff Hakeem 14.5 RP100 on
6.8/21.2/14.5 RB% splits

Moderate sized margin to Duncan as he has Hakeem beat on both ends when it comes to rebounding.

Passing

Regular season 5.3 AP100 on 1.51 AST % / TOV % ratio )

Playoffs 6.6 AP100 ( on 1.98 AST % /TOV % ratio )

Playoff Hakeem 5.3 AP100 ( on 1.65 AST % / TOV % ratio )

Hakeem was a great passer for a big but Duncan surpassed him in both the RS and PS. He's a hell of an underrated passer as what he did with that volume of passing is closer to a wing than a center. Decent edge to Tim.

Heck here's the list of 6'9 and up guys who have put together more than one series of over 25 AST% and less than 15 TOV% over 6.0 AP100 in the playoffs

Spoiler:

Defense

Regular Season 0.9 SP100, 4.0 BP100, 94 DRTG

Playoffs 0.8 SP100 4.1 BP100, 92 DRTG

Playoff Hakeem 2.2 SP100, 5.0 BP100, 95 DRTG

FWIW I think the gap in stats is larger than the actual gap as Duncan makes up in the steal block department with more consistent effort/motor and a slightly sharper defensive mind. He wasn't the best pick and roll player but neither was Hakeem for all his athleticism. Duncan managed to do a fine job with his length and above average athleticism. Let's call this Duncan by an inch.

With all the simplified categories added up I think tim gets the advantage with more than most would think.

Also his finals were glorious

2. 95 David Robinson

He had everything minus back to the basket scoring you'd look for in traditional bigs. Top tier passing. Goat level defense. Excellent off ball / offensive rebounding. Great at facing up and drawing fouls / finishing. A very good rebounder. His scoring dropped off in the playoffs but he was still very good in other areas.

It's just Duncan managed to outperform him in the playoffs by such an amount, that I think being a playoffs guy I have to put him over.

Stats

RS

36.9 PP100 on 60.5 TS% ( + 6.2% above League Average ) 14.5 RP100 (9.1/22.6/16.2 Rebounding Splits ) 3.9 AP100 ( 1.23 AST % /TOV % ratio. )

120/99 ORTG/DRTG rating
27.3 WS/48, (4.1/4.3) 8.4 BPM, 8.1 VORP

Playoffs 32.6 PP100 on 53.6 TS% ( -0.7% below league average) 15.4 RP100 (10.7/22.2/16.6) 4.0 AP100 (on 1.06 AST% / TOV% ratio )

108 / 98 ORTG/DRTG rating
17.6 WS/48, (2.5/4.2) 6.7 BPM

3rd 1977 Kareem

Excellent volume scoring on great efficiency And that rose to god mode efficiency in the playoffs.

32.7 PP100 on 60.8 TS% ( +9.7 above league average ) along with 16.6 RPG and 4.8 APG and very good defense

And then in the playoffs

37.4 PP100 on 64.4 TS% ( +13.1% above league average ) 19.5 RPG and 4.5 assists per game and still very nice defense

Spoiler:

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Joao Saraiva · Post #22 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:18 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:I wanna read more and watch a bit more from Kareem 77.

Here are two games from the '77 playoffs where KAJ performed extremely well (at least 40 points in both games):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLu4oc2WeY[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6gMMMr6B6k[/youtube]

Please don't think that I'm posting it because of my good will - no, I actually have an agenda here - '77 KAJ is probably going to be my top pick here, so I have to prop him up, lol.

Nah, obviously I'm joking. Just wanted to give you a good glimpse of how he played that year.

I don't think people focus on his 77 postseason enough. You hear about other great postseasons often but the 72-79 period in NBA history might be the most forgotten unfortunately for Kareem. I mean everyone knows the 70s stars are great because they've been taught they are but they don't understand exactly how good they were. In the 77 postseason Kareem averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and 4.1 rpg. He had a 64.6 TS% (60.7% from the field) and a 32.4 PER. Here's his game logs from that postseason:
WCSF vs Warriors
Game 1- 27 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, 7/12 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 19 rebounds, 3 assists, 9 blocks, 4/6 FT
Game 3- 28 points, 14 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 4/7 FT
Game 4- 41 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 blocks, 11/16 FT
Game 5- 45 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 16/28 FG, 13/18 FT
Game 6- 43 points, 20 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks, 17/25 FG, 9/11 FT
Game 7- 36 points, 26 rebounds, 0 blocks, 14/26 FG, 8/10 FT

WCF vs Blazers
Game 1- 30 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 11/19 FG, 8/9 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 17 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks, 17/23 FG, 6/9 FT
Game 3- 21 points, 20 rebounds, 7 assists, 8 blocks, 5/12 FG, 11/13 FT (Foul trouble)
Game 4- 30 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 6/9 FT

I really think this year is underrated. I mean his worst game of the postseason probably a game where he put up 28/14/7 with 4 blocks or a game where he had 21/20/7 with 8 blocks.

After reevaluating if I was in this project I'd possibly put Kareem over Duncan/Wilt. IDK it's close. I have a bunch of old articles I want to post too but I am participating in a hackathon later today and tomorrow and unfortunately might not have the time if he is voted in here.

Thanks for the info guys. I'll look it up at night!

drza · Post #23 » by **drza** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:57 pm

eminence wrote:Seems to me to be the debate between the bigs mostly for this one. Wilt/Kareem/Robinson/Hakeem all getting pretty heavy support last round. Personally I'm really liking Duncan in one of the upcoming spots, later today I'll try to go into my comparison between them all (maybe Russell/KG as well), but I'd appreciate it if some others could give their takes on it as well

I did a comp of Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan and Garnett as part of the last Top 100 project. It was almost all stylistic and scouting, with nothing in the way of stats, and started off as a post on my observations about Hakeem before expanding to compare all 4 of them with each other. Anyway, it seems like it'd fit here so I'm going to re-post it:

fpliii wrote: drza set the standard earlier in the project with his Garnett breakdown (which mixed qualitative with quantitative; in case you're reading drza, I'd love a similar breakdown of Hakeem, who I didn't get to watch pre-peak though ronnymac, fatal9, 90salldecade, and a couple of others have done a great job fleshing those years out), even if abridged, it would be great to have someone breakdown both Kobe and Bird defensively over their careers.

Thanks for the compliment. And I wish I could provide a similar breakdown for Olajuwon. The thing is, the lion share of that Garnett breakdown came from watching absurd amounts of his games through the years (yay, League Pass). Unfortunately, while I watched Dream play, I didn't see nearly as many of his games and early in his career I wasn't exactly watching analytically (was way too young) or preparing cases on message boards (especially since, you know, I had no idea that there would ever be such a thing as the internet at that time). This also makes a direct comparison of KG and Olajuwon difficult, because there isn't a lot of common frames of reference for them. I tend to find it more interesting to compare all of KG, Olajuwon, Duncan and Robinson because that allows for more nuance in contrasting them. But it's still hard.

For what it's worth, my general memories of Olajuwon through the years:

Spoiler:

Wow. When I started my "I remember"s, I wasn't expecting that section to be nearly that long. I guess the point of my reminiscing is that I was aware of and watching Olajuwon on some level from the time he entered the NBA, but that I wasn't exactly scouting him. But I guess I did see him enough to form opinions.

My impressions of Hakeem (as compared to Robinson, Duncan and/or Garnett)
Physically:

Spoiler:

Defense:

Spoiler:

I remember Hakeem coming out on guards if necessary (most famous example being his block against the Knicks) but the vast majority of my impressions of him are at/near the rim. From that, even though he had the ability to go horizontal, I would say I'd expect his "horizontal defense" to be more similar to young Duncan's or Robinson's (and perhaps Russell's) than Garnett's. As someone (Doc MJ?) suggested up-thread, the type of defense that Garnett played wasn't necessarily conducive to the blocked shot. If roles were reversed, Olajuwon and his coach would have to decide what ratio of horizontal vs. vertical he wanted to be as a defender. And of course, that decision wouldn't be trivially made.

In fact, I'd say that Robinson and Hakeem probably had the most similarity in terms of defensive style of that four-some. Both were incredible shot-blockers but also extremely disruptive of the passing lanes.

It was pretty ironic that the lasting images (for me anyway) of that 1995 match-up were Robinson being so badly fooled by Olajwon's feints and head-fakes, because I kind of feel like Olajuwon would have also fallen for those fakes. Both Olajuwon and Robinson tended to look for the block a lot, which sometimes caused them to over-commit. I feel like this is a weakness for both when compared to Tim Duncan, who almost always seemed to play steady post defense without going for the fakes. I think that Garnett also tended to be better at this area, as he relied on being so darned long that I don't remember him often joining the para-troopers club when defending on-ball.

For all 3 of Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan I think their help defense primarily consisted of rim protection. As I mentioned, all had the athletic ability to show or occasionally switch out to a perimeter player if needed, but their primary areas of influence was the paint. Garnett's area of influence is more like the entire area inside the arc, but the trade-off is that he wasn't directly protecting the rim as often. Some believe this meant that the three center-like players were providing a more important service. I tend to feel like Garnett does more to blow up offenses with his extended range and that this was the more important skill, and got more-so with the rule changes in the "modern" NBA.

Offense:

Spoiler:

On offense, I feel like all four had distinct styles that produced different types of effects.

*Robinson was the best of the 4 on the fast break, and also the best in the face-up game. He was likely the tallest (I peg him at 7-1, KG at 7-1, Duncan at 6-11 and Olajuwon at 6-10, though I'm not positive of these heights) and best leaper which made him great at finishing if set up near the rim. Robinson had some back to the basket skills, but it wasn't his natural forte and depended more on athletic ability than skill. This isn't necessarily a good thing, as the skill tends to win out when faced with players of similar ability. Robinson showed the ability to scale up his scoring (especially in the regular season) when his team brought in more rebounding, and he also showed the ability/willingness to scale down his scoring with more energy focused on defense when playing next to Duncan. Robinson was an adequate passer, but in this company he's not at the top of that heap. As such, he is more ideally suited to be an offensive finisher than a low-post hub or offense creator for teammates.

Olajuwon had the most artistic post moves of the group, and he used them to maximal effect with more volume-scoring mentality than the others. Robinson peaked higher as a regular season scorer, but Olajuwon had the highest peaks in playoff scoring. Olajuwon was the most natural agile/fluid of the group, and that played out with his post moves. Olajuwon also had an excellent handle for a center, and could attack off the face-up. Olajuwon was never really as efficient a scorer as Robinson in the regular season, and I think in large part that's because he didn't share Robinson's proclivity for getting the "easy" shots (fast breaks, alley-oops) nor did he attack and draw fouls like the Admiral. However, his post moves were the exact opposite on the skill/strength continuum. Olajuwon was also (in this company) an adequate passer that got better as his career progressed. However, since he was more adept at post play than Robinson he was a better choice to be a low-post hub for the offense. Especially when surrounded by four shooters, as was the case during his championship runs. His volume/efficiency could potentially hinder his portability with respect to his peers, as we don't have a positive example of him scaling down his volume for the sake of team success if circumstances dictated the way that we do for the others in the group. But to be fair, I don't know that any of the other three could have taken on the volume scoring responsibility to the degree that he did during the Rockets' repeat years. Olajuwon was the best Iso scorer of the group.

Duncan: I think that, while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was. However, I don't think that either Duncan or Olajuwon are as good of big men offensive hub options as Shaq or Kareem. Thus, I don't know that you could scale up an offense built primarily around Duncan (or Olajuwon's) low-post offense to a best-in-the-league level the way that you could one built around Shaq or Kareem. However, what both Duncan and Olajuwon demonstrated with their post-game was the ability to lead/anchor an offense that was good enough to win with the right combination of strong defense and shooters. Duncan was good in the iso, but not brilliant like Hakeem could be. He also shared shooting range with Hakeem out to about 15 feet, which was a nice counter to the post games.

Garnett: Like on defense, Garnett's offense is stylistically the most different from the other three. He had a good iso scoring and post game, but not nearly on Hakeem's level. His effectiveness as a scorer down low could rival Duncan's, but he didn't spend as much time down there. Whether it was to prevent wear-and-tear or to put defenses off balance/prevent easy doubles, Garnett spent the most time of this group operating from the high-post/elbow. He was able to run perinneal top-5 offenses from his office in the high-post, pulling defenses towards him and opening up passing lanes and shooting space for teammates. Garnett was also the best passer of the group, and the one best suited to be an offensive hub due to his high-post ability. Garnett also had the most shooting range. Garnett was the lowest volume-scorer of the group, though very similar in that respect to Duncan. Conversely, this meant that KG's game was the one least dependent upon scoring to provide impact.

Conclusions: I don't know that we can make definitive conclusions about comparisons between Garnett/Duncan and Hakeem/Robinson. It is easier to compare within the generation since they had shared league cirucmstances and plenty of head-to-heads to work with. Robinson and Hakeem met each other in the postseason at the height of their powers, and Hakeem won. Hakeem led his team to two titles in ways that Robinson didn't have to when getting his two rings. Was this head-to-head and postseason success enough for Hakeem to counter the regular season dominance and regular season head-to-head success that Robinson had over Hakeem? For many it is, but I'm willing to re-visit it if someone makes a great case for Robinson. I'd entered the Retro Player of the Year project feeling that I'd still be willing to lean to Robinson in that comparison, and more than the 1995 matchup, it was the evidence presented about Robinson's issues with th e'94 and '96 Jazz that really swayed me that perhaps Robinson's problems in the postseason were more than coincidence. There has been a narrative explanation since then that speaks to Robinson's offensive style just not being conducive to the playoffs. It's sounded plausible and believable enough for me to go with it for now, but I'm still willing to be convinced otherwise.

KG and Duncan also met each other in the postseason in their primes (though it was their early primes), and essentially they played each other to a standstill twice. Duncan had much more team success, but the regression-based analysis methods seem to favor KG as perhaps having more impact. By my eye test and analysis I had Garnett over Duncan long before RAPM ever existed because I could see how much lift he was providing and didn't believe that anyone else could do as much. But I recognize that my opinion on that isn't the majority. And it only matters in this post to the extent that, as I mentioned above, it is easier for me to analyze this group together/vs. each other than it is to pick any two from different generations and compare them directly.

Ultimately, I think that KG's impact footprint is at least as large as the others in this group. I think that, stylistically, his approach scales up to maintaining that impact on better teams than the others. On defense, you could get his mega impact from the 4 slot while still potentially retaining a strong defensive center. Across the range of great teams, I think this is more likely than being able to pair Olajuwon or Robinson with an equivalently strong defensive 4. On offense, Garnett's ability to run a team from the high-post has more upside than a more post-centric offense run through the centers. Then, on the flip side, I fully believe that Garnett could have also won a title with a similar degree of team support as the '03 Spurs or mid-90s Rockets (he was a Cassell injury away from pulling it off in '04, IMO). There's been some push-back in this project against "portability", but I do think it's important to consider how impact might transfer to different situations and I think KG's the most portable of the lot. So on the whole I have Garnett (slightly) ahead of the others in this group. But obviously, the margins are extremely thin all the way around.

Dr Positivity · Post #24 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:05 pm

Ballot 1: Hakeem 1994

Ballot 2: Tim Duncan 2003

Ballot 3: Kevin Garnett 2004

If I'm "drafting" a season it's hard to get more appealing than what these 3 players add to my team. They anchor my defense, score and pass well enough to run an offense through them. It's hard for me to pick between them, for me I asked "what offensive skillset is hardest to guard in the playoffs?" I rated Hakeem's dynamic post ability first and KG 3rd for not being as post centric, whereas post play can be a go-to option that collapses the defense's plans, although KG also floor spaces the most

Post #25 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:44 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:I wanna read more and watch a bit more from Kareem 77.

Here are two games from the '77 playoffs where KAJ performed extremely well (at least 40 points in both games):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLu4oc2WeY[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6gMMMr6B6k[/youtube]

Please don't think that I'm posting it because of my good will - no, I actually have an agenda here - '77 KAJ is probably going to be my top pick here, so I have to prop him up, lol.

Nah, obviously I'm joking. Just wanted to give you a good glimpse of how he played that year.

I don't think people focus on his 77 postseason enough. You hear about other great postseasons often but the 72-79 period in NBA history might be the most forgotten unfortunately for Kareem. I mean everyone knows the 70s stars are great because they've been taught they are but they don't understand exactly how good they were. In the 77 postseason Kareem averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and 4.1 rpg. He had a 64.6 TS% (60.7% from the field) and a 32.4 PER. Here's his game logs from that postseason:
WCSF vs Warriors
Game 1- 27 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, 7/12 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 19 rebounds, 3 assists, 9 blocks, 4/6 FT
Game 3- 28 points, 14 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 4/7 FT
Game 4- 41 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 blocks, 11/16 FT
Game 5- 45 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 16/28 FG, 13/18 FT
Game 6- 43 points, 20 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks, 17/25 FG, 9/11 FT
Game 7- 36 points, 26 rebounds, 0 blocks, 14/26 FG, 8/10 FT

WCF vs Blazers
Game 1- 30 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 11/19 FG, 8/9 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 17 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks, 17/23 FG, 6/9 FT
Game 3- 21 points, 20 rebounds, 7 assists, 8 blocks, 5/12 FG, 11/13 FT (Foul trouble)
Game 4- 30 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 6/9 FT

I really think this year is underrated. I mean his worst game of the postseason probably a game where he put up 28/14/7 with 4 blocks or a game where he had 21/20/7 with 8 blocks.

After reevaluating if I was in this project I'd possibly put Kareem over Duncan/Wilt. IDK it's close. I have a bunch of old articles I want to post too but I am participating in a hackathon later today and tomorrow and unfortunately might not have the time if he is voted in here.

Thanks for the added data E-Balla. It's fairly compelling stuff (not just about how good Kareem was, but as far as advocating for '77, too). I've always kinda liked '72 (his most dominant year in the rs, by somewhat of a good margin, actually); and though his playoff numbers (or rather just his playoff efficiency) dips, as I'd noted previously: he was being guarded by Nate Thurmond in the first round, and a defensive-minded Wilt Chamberlain in the 2nd round.
Still, in '77 he's being guarded by a defensively capable young Robert Parish or Clifford Ray in the first round, then by peak Bill Walton in the 2nd round, and still lit up the playoffs. idk, I may be reconsidering my peak year. '71 was great, too.

Thanks for the videos, Quot. I'm going to try to watch some of those tonight. I'll try to watch some of the '95 WCF, too, wrt our prior debate, E-Balla. btw--If you want to cast ballots in this project, say the word.

Post #26 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:24 pm

drza wrote:
Spoiler:
eminence wrote:Seems to me to be the debate between the bigs mostly for this one. Wilt/Kareem/Robinson/Hakeem all getting pretty heavy support last round. Personally I'm really liking Duncan in one of the upcoming spots, later today I'll try to go into my comparison between them all (maybe Russell/KG as well), but I'd appreciate it if some others could give their takes on it as well

I did a comp of Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan and Garnett as part of the last Top 100 project. It was almost all stylistic and scouting, with nothing in the way of stats, and started off as a post on my observations about Hakeem before expanding to compare all 4 of them with each other. Anyway, it seems like it'd fit here so I'm going to re-post it:

fpliii wrote: drza set the standard earlier in the project with his Garnett breakdown (which mixed qualitative with quantitative; in case you're reading drza, I'd love a similar breakdown of Hakeem, who I didn't get to watch pre-peak though ronnymac, fatal9, 90salldecade, and a couple of others have done a great job fleshing those years out), even if abridged, it would be great to have someone breakdown both Kobe and Bird defensively over their careers.

Thanks for the compliment. And I wish I could provide a similar breakdown for Olajuwon. The thing is, the lion share of that Garnett breakdown came from watching absurd amounts of his games through the years (yay, League Pass). Unfortunately, while I watched Dream play, I didn't see nearly as many of his games and early in his career I wasn't exactly watching analytically (was way too young) or preparing cases on message boards (especially since, you know, I had no idea that there would ever be such a thing as the internet at that time). This also makes a direct comparison of KG and Olajuwon difficult, because there isn't a lot of common frames of reference for them. I tend to find it more interesting to compare all of KG, Olajuwon, Duncan and Robinson because that allows for more nuance in contrasting them. But it's still hard.

For what it's worth, my general memories of Olajuwon through the years:

[spoiler]*I have dim memories of watching Olajuwon when he was in college. I was young enough at the time that I thought my dad was calling him and Clyde Drexler "Five Slamma Jamma". I remember at the time I thought that Drexler was the star, but I remember my dad being really excited about tall guy who the announcers said had come late to playing basketball. The tall guy's name confused me, though, because I heard that his name was 'Akeem Abdul Olajuwon' and I kept getting mixed up in my mind with 'Kareem Abdul Jabbar', who was my definition of a great center at the time.

*I remember there being an interview with Moses Malone, who was working with Olajuwon in the offseason, where Malone said "The boy only know 2 words. 'My ball', and 'womens'. This cracked my dad up, and he repeated the story often enough through the years that I'm not positive that I ever heard Moses say it or if I just remember my dad's version.

*I remember the hype around The Twin Towers, how announcers were saying that pairing the 6-10 Olajuwon with the 7-4 Ralph Sampson was going to take over the league. I remember that Olajuwon moved quicker and seemed stronger, but I was more impressed at the time with how absurdly tall and long Sampson was. Of the pairing, Sampson was more my favorite.

*I remember that though the Twin Towers were good, they weren't as good as the Lakers or Celtics (who were the best). I remember that those Rockets had Rodney Mcray and Lewis Lloyd and Robert Reid. For some reason I always thought Reid was pretty good, and an important member of the team.

*I remember being absolutely stunned when Sampson hit that crazy buzzer beater to eliminate the Lakers. The Twin Towers were good and all, but the Lakers had Kareem AND Magic. They were never supposed to lose to anyone except the Celtics.

*I remember after that, when Sampson started getting hurt all of the time, that I kind of lost interest in the Rockets. Without the other Twin Tower they weren't as interesting to me, and I didn't think they'd be that good.

*I remember when Akeem changed his name to Hakeem, which confused me about his name all over again because I could never remember which was the old spelling and which was the new. I also remember, around the same time, hearing that he was celebrating something called "Ramadan" and fasting from food for like a month during the season. I thought that was both crazy and cool, that he could do that.

*I remember the progression of great teams out West as the Lakers aged and then Magic had to retire. I remember when Portland started making the Finals thinking that was strange, because in my head they (like the Rockets had been with the Twin Towers) were good but not great. The only "great" team out West was supposed to be the Lakers, but now the Lakers had left the field empty to whoever stepped up. At this point I knew Hakeem to be a star, but there was nothing about him that made him stand out to me as a super-duper star. At that time, if I'd have been asked, I'd have lumped Olajuwon in with Robinson and Ewing as the best centers in the league. I'd have probably said that Robinson was the best of them, actually, because his game was just so electric.

*I remember being extremely excited when Barkley got traded to the Suns. For one, I really liked Barkley and the Suns were a fun team. But more importantly, I considered Barkley a super-duper-star and the Suns were the best hope to take out Jordan's Bulls, who I was not a fan of. At that time I'd have said that Barkley was better than Olajuwon, and probably that Robinson was too.

*I remember 1994, when (at least to my mind) Olajuwon suddenly went up a level. I had been disappointed (and surprised) when the Rockets took out the Suns (though I'm almost positive that was the series when KJ posterized Olajuwon, and I got a kick out of that". I was happy when the Rockets took out the Jazz, as I was never a big fan of theirs and I never really thought that highly of Stockton and Malone (more players that I recognized as stars, but didn't see as super-duper-stars). In the Finals I was really pulling for the Knicks...I wasn't especially a fan of theirs, but they'd earned my attention and respect with their battles with the Bulls through the years and I was hoping to see Ewing get a title. I was surprised by how much better Olajuwon was than Ewing in those Finals. In fact, as I mentioned, I was surprised by how good Olajuwon was through those whole playoffs. I thought I had known him, had a handle on his level, but in those playoffs I realized he had gone up a notch.

*I remember 1995, when David Robinson seemed to put everything together with a magical regular season. Like with Barkley, I was a Robinson fan. Maybe even more-so...it was hard not to pull for the Admiral. The Rockets were surprisingly down all season after their title, and even after they traded for Drexler they weren't as good as I might have thought. But for most of the year my attention was on the Magic, as Shaq and Penny looked like the new big thing in the NBA. Penny was actually on the verge of edging out Ron Harper to become my new favorite player, and I was pretty excited to see them make their run. In the meantime, the playoffs started out West, and suddenly Olajuwon was back to his old tricks again. I was watching the game when Robinson got that MVP trophy, and it seemed like Olajuwon got mad and decided to destroy him. For good or ill, that game long-formed my opinion of the relative hierarchy between the two (and of course, I'm not alone in that). I remember thinking that Olajuwon vs Shaq was going to make for an epic Final, but expecting the Magic to maybe win...until Nick Anderson missed those 4 free throws. My gut sank with each miss, and when the last one came off I just KNEW that the Rockets would hit a three. Their team just seemed like assassins, like they knew how to do what was needed to win. I felt like Hakeem and Shaq played each other to a standstill, but that the Rockets won in a sweep because they had the nerve for the moment and the Magic were too shook.

* I remember folks saying that the Rockets only won because Jordan retired, and thinking that was unfair. And thinking/hoping that Olajuwon would lead the Rockets back to the promised land one more time and take out the Bulls. But they couldnt get past the Sonics.

*I remember when Barkley joined Olajuwon in Houston the next season, getting my hopes up again that with this superteam they could meet the Bulls in the Finals and show Jordan who the REAL best from the class of 1984 were. But of course they came up short again.

*I remember the last gasps when Pippen joined Dream and Barkley in Houston after the second Bulls 3-peat, but by then none of them had the juice that they once had and the next generation was starting to take over.

Wow. When I started my "I remember"s, I wasn't expecting that section to be nearly that long. I guess the point of my reminiscing is that I was aware of and watching Olajuwon on some level from the time he entered the NBA, but that I wasn't exactly scouting him. But I guess I did see him enough to form opinions.

My impressions of Hakeem (as compared to Robinson, Duncan and/or Garnett)
Physically:
Spoiler:
Hakeem always struck me as athletic, but not in the same way that Robinson was. Robinson was longer, seemed faster, and seemed to jump higher. Olajuwon always seemed to be built like a tall short guy (if that makes sense. In other words, he was so proportioned that he didn't give the overwhelming impression of height that Robinson, Kareem or Sampson gave). I also don't have memories of overwhelming speed from Olajuwon, though he seemed quick enough to get his hand on everything in the paint (be it a block or a steal) so that impression isn't exactly air-tight. His agility and maneuverability were amazing, though, and I remember how whenever this would be noted the announcers would always point out his background as a soccer player

Defense:
Spoiler:
I remember Hakeem coming out on guards if necessary (most famous example being his block against the Knicks) but the vast majority of my impressions of him are at/near the rim. From that, even though he had the ability to go horizontal, I would say I'd expect his "horizontal defense" to be more similar to young Duncan's or Robinson's (and perhaps Russell's) than Garnett's. As someone (Doc MJ?) suggested up-thread, the type of defense that Garnett played wasn't necessarily conducive to the blocked shot. If roles were reversed, Olajuwon and his coach would have to decide what ratio of horizontal vs. vertical he wanted to be as a defender. And of course, that decision wouldn't be trivially made.

In fact, I'd say that Robinson and Hakeem probably had the most similarity in terms of defensive style of that four-some. Both were incredible shot-blockers but also extremely disruptive of the passing lanes.

It was pretty ironic that the lasting images (for me anyway) of that 1995 match-up were Robinson being so badly fooled by Olajwon's feints and head-fakes, because I kind of feel like Olajuwon would have also fallen for those fakes. Both Olajuwon and Robinson tended to look for the block a lot, which sometimes caused them to over-commit. I feel like this is a weakness for both when compared to Tim Duncan, who almost always seemed to play steady post defense without going for the fakes. I think that Garnett also tended to be better at this area, as he relied on being so darned long that I don't remember him often joining the para-troopers club when defending on-ball.

For all 3 of Hakeem, Robinson and Duncan I think their help defense primarily consisted of rim protection. As I mentioned, all had the athletic ability to show or occasionally switch out to a perimeter player if needed, but their primary areas of influence was the paint. Garnett's area of influence is more like the entire area inside the arc, but the trade-off is that he wasn't directly protecting the rim as often. Some believe this meant that the three center-like players were providing a more important service. I tend to feel like Garnett does more to blow up offenses with his extended range and that this was the more important skill, and got more-so with the rule changes in the "modern" NBA.

Offense:
Spoiler:
On offense, I feel like all four had distinct styles that produced different types of effects.

*Robinson was the best of the 4 on the fast break, and also the best in the face-up game. He was likely the tallest (I peg him at 7-1, KG at 7-1, Duncan at 6-11 and Olajuwon at 6-10, though I'm not positive of these heights) and best leaper which made him great at finishing if set up near the rim. Robinson had some back to the basket skills, but it wasn't his natural forte and depended more on athletic ability than skill. This isn't necessarily a good thing, as the skill tends to win out when faced with players of similar ability. Robinson showed the ability to scale up his scoring (especially in the regular season) when his team brought in more rebounding, and he also showed the ability/willingness to scale down his scoring with more energy focused on defense when playing next to Duncan. Robinson was an adequate passer, but in this company he's not at the top of that heap. As such, he is more ideally suited to be an offensive finisher than a low-post hub or offense creator for teammates.

Olajuwon had the most artistic post moves of the group, and he used them to maximal effect with more volume-scoring mentality than the others. Robinson peaked higher as a regular season scorer, but Olajuwon had the highest peaks in playoff scoring. Olajuwon was the most natural agile/fluid of the group, and that played out with his post moves. Olajuwon also had an excellent handle for a center, and could attack off the face-up. Olajuwon was never really as efficient a scorer as Robinson in the regular season, and I think in large part that's because he didn't share Robinson's proclivity for getting the "easy" shots (fast breaks, alley-oops) nor did he attack and draw fouls like the Admiral. However, his post moves were the exact opposite on the skill/strength continuum. Olajuwon was also (in this company) an adequate passer that got better as his career progressed. However, since he was more adept at post play than Robinson he was a better choice to be a low-post hub for the offense. Especially when surrounded by four shooters, as was the case during his championship runs. His volume/efficiency could potentially hinder his portability with respect to his peers, as we don't have a positive example of him scaling down his volume for the sake of team success if circumstances dictated the way that we do for the others in the group. But to be fair, I don't know that any of the other three could have taken on the volume scoring responsibility to the degree that he did during the Rockets' repeat years. Olajuwon was the best Iso scorer of the group.

Duncan: I think that, while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was. However, I don't think that either Duncan or Olajuwon are as good of big men offensive hub options as Shaq or Kareem. Thus, I don't know that you could scale up an offense built primarily around Duncan (or Olajuwon's) low-post offense to a best-in-the-league level the way that you could one built around Shaq or Kareem. However, what both Duncan and Olajuwon demonstrated with their post-game was the ability to lead/anchor an offense that was good enough to win with the right combination of strong defense and shooters. Duncan was good in the iso, but not brilliant like Hakeem could be. He also shared shooting range with Hakeem out to about 15 feet, which was a nice counter to the post games.

Garnett: Like on defense, Garnett's offense is stylistically the most different from the other three. He had a good iso scoring and post game, but not nearly on Hakeem's level. His effectiveness as a scorer down low could rival Duncan's, but he didn't spend as much time down there. Whether it was to prevent wear-and-tear or to put defenses off balance/prevent easy doubles, Garnett spent the most time of this group operating from the high-post/elbow. He was able to run perinneal top-5 offenses from his office in the high-post, pulling defenses towards him and opening up passing lanes and shooting space for teammates. Garnett was also the best passer of the group, and the one best suited to be an offensive hub due to his high-post ability. Garnett also had the most shooting range. Garnett was the lowest volume-scorer of the group, though very similar in that respect to Duncan. Conversely, this meant that KG's game was the one least dependent upon scoring to provide impact.

Conclusions: I don't know that we can make definitive conclusions about comparisons between Garnett/Duncan and Hakeem/Robinson. It is easier to compare within the generation since they had shared league cirucmstances and plenty of head-to-heads to work with. Robinson and Hakeem met each other in the postseason at the height of their powers, and Hakeem won. Hakeem led his team to two titles in ways that Robinson didn't have to when getting his two rings. Was this head-to-head and postseason success enough for Hakeem to counter the regular season dominance and regular season head-to-head success that Robinson had over Hakeem? For many it is, but I'm willing to re-visit it if someone makes a great case for Robinson. I'd entered the Retro Player of the Year project feeling that I'd still be willing to lean to Robinson in that comparison, and more than the 1995 matchup, it was the evidence presented about Robinson's issues with th e'94 and '96 Jazz that really swayed me that perhaps Robinson's problems in the postseason were more than coincidence. There has been a narrative explanation since then that speaks to Robinson's offensive style just not being conducive to the playoffs. It's sounded plausible and believable enough for me to go with it for now, but I'm still willing to be convinced otherwise.

KG and Duncan also met each other in the postseason in their primes (though it was their early primes), and essentially they played each other to a standstill twice. Duncan had much more team success, but the regression-based analysis methods seem to favor KG as perhaps having more impact. By my eye test and analysis I had Garnett over Duncan long before RAPM ever existed because I could see how much lift he was providing and didn't believe that anyone else could do as much. But I recognize that my opinion on that isn't the majority. And it only matters in this post to the extent that, as I mentioned above, it is easier for me to analyze this group together/vs. each other than it is to pick any two from different generations and compare them directly.

Ultimately, I think that KG's impact footprint is at least as large as the others in this group. I think that, stylistically, his approach scales up to maintaining that impact on better teams than the others. On defense, you could get his mega impact from the 4 slot while still potentially retaining a strong defensive center. Across the range of great teams, I think this is more likely than being able to pair Olajuwon or Robinson with an equivalently strong defensive 4. On offense, Garnett's ability to run a team from the high-post has more upside than a more post-centric offense run through the centers. Then, on the flip side, I fully believe that Garnett could have also won a title with a similar degree of team support as the '03 Spurs or mid-90s Rockets (he was a Cassell injury away from pulling it off in '04, IMO). There's been some push-back in this project against "portability", but I do think it's important to consider how impact might transfer to different situations and I think KG's the most portable of the lot. So on the whole I have Garnett (slightly) ahead of the others in this group. But obviously, the margins are extremely thin all the way around.

Great stuff drza, thank you for taking the time.
If anyone hasn't read this yet, in contains some great insights. Rather a long read to get everything in the spoilers, but well worth the time, imo.

E-Balla · Post #27 » by **E-Balla** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:36 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Quotatious wrote:Here are two games from the '77 playoffs where KAJ performed extremely well (at least 40 points in both games):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aLu4oc2WeY[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6gMMMr6B6k[/youtube]

Please don't think that I'm posting it because of my good will - no, I actually have an agenda here - '77 KAJ is probably going to be my top pick here, so I have to prop him up, lol.

Nah, obviously I'm joking. Just wanted to give you a good glimpse of how he played that year.

I don't think people focus on his 77 postseason enough. You hear about other great postseasons often but the 72-79 period in NBA history might be the most forgotten unfortunately for Kareem. I mean everyone knows the 70s stars are great because they've been taught they are but they don't understand exactly how good they were. In the 77 postseason Kareem averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and 4.1 rpg. He had a 64.6 TS% (60.7% from the field) and a 32.4 PER. Here's his game logs from that postseason:
WCSF vs Warriors
Game 1- 27 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, 7/12 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 19 rebounds, 3 assists, 9 blocks, 4/6 FT
Game 3- 28 points, 14 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 4/7 FT
Game 4- 41 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 blocks, 11/16 FT
Game 5- 45 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 16/28 FG, 13/18 FT
Game 6- 43 points, 20 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks, 17/25 FG, 9/11 FT
Game 7- 36 points, 26 rebounds, 0 blocks, 14/26 FG, 8/10 FT

WCF vs Blazers
Game 1- 30 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 11/19 FG, 8/9 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 17 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks, 17/23 FG, 6/9 FT
Game 3- 21 points, 20 rebounds, 7 assists, 8 blocks, 5/12 FG, 11/13 FT (Foul trouble)
Game 4- 30 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 6/9 FT

I really think this year is underrated. I mean his worst game of the postseason probably a game where he put up 28/14/7 with 4 blocks or a game where he had 21/20/7 with 8 blocks.

After reevaluating if I was in this project I'd possibly put Kareem over Duncan/Wilt. IDK it's close. I have a bunch of old articles I want to post too but I am participating in a hackathon later today and tomorrow and unfortunately might not have the time if he is voted in here.

Thanks for the added data E-Balla. It's fairly compelling stuff (not just about how good Kareem was, but as far as advocating for '77, too). I've always kinda liked '72 (his most dominant year in the rs, by somewhat of a good margin, actually); and though his playoff numbers (or rather just his playoff efficiency) dips, as I'd noted previously: he was being guarded by Nate Thurmond in the first round, and a defensive-minded Wilt Chamberlain in the 2nd round.
Still, in '77 he's being guarded by a defensive sound young Robert Parish in the first round, then by peak Bill Walton in the 2nd round, and still lit up the playoffs. idk, I may be reconsidering my peak year. '71 was great, too.

Thanks for the videos, Quot. I'm going to try to watch some of those tonight. I'll try to watch some of the '95 WCF, too, wrt our prior debate, E-Balla. btw--If you want to cast ballots in this project, say the word.

I'll definitely vote later but at the earliest stages in this particular project I don't feel like I feel strongly enough to pick and choose. I mean if I had a vote I don't even know who would get it (thanks for putting Lebron in though he certainly makes it harder).

70sFan · Post #28 » by **70sFan** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:49 pm

1st ballot - Wilt Chamberlain 1967
2nd ballot - Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 1971/1972/1974/1977
3rd ballot - Hakeem 1994

I would explain my votes later. Wilt and Kareem are clear choices for me, after them I struggle to choose betwen Duncan and Hakeem. Right now, Hakeem is over Timmy for me (very small gap) and after them I have Russell and Robinson as an another close pair.

GoldenFrieza21 · Post #29 » by **GoldenFrieza21** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:53 pm

Didn't get a chance to vote on the earlier thread, no surprises on the result though.

I am going:

1. Wilt Chamberlain 1967: I have spoken ad nausem about this the last 2 threads. His dropping lower than 4 would be an unspeakable travesty and seriously damage the credibility of the project IMO.

2. 1993/1994 Hakeem Olajuwon: It's very close between these two seasons for him... 1995 may have has the best postseason but the RS was clearly better in these cases. His defense also dropped off a little bit in 1995 from 1993/1994, especially 1993 when he was basically a one man wrecking crew. His Seattle series in 1993 was insane, some of the best transition defense you'll ever see. Hard to believe he's 6'11. Offense was better than previous years but I still rank it way below Wilt, and even the next guy, although Hakeem's defense takes it in this case.

3. 1977 Jabbar: People have spoken enough about this season. That was a really really bad Laker team. The Blazers series was comical. At one point the Blazers scored 8-10 transition points because the Laker guards could barely get it past half court. This was like the big man version of 2006 Kobe. 41-5 at home, with the roster he had, and putting up the numbers he did, yeah, it's definitely deserving of a top 6 all time spot. I have Bird next, but I have my doubts that even at his absolute peak he could drag such a terrible team to an above average performance the way Kareem did this year.

My next few spots are Bird/Magic/Duncan/Walton/Russell/Kobe/Wade.

GoldenFrieza21 · Post #30 » by **GoldenFrieza21** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:55 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Ballot 1: Hakeem 1994

Ballot 2: Tim Duncan 2003

Ballot 3: Kevin Garnett 2004

If I'm "drafting" a season it's hard to get more appealing than what these 3 players add to my team. They anchor my defense, score and pass well enough to run an offense through them. It's hard for me to pick between them, for me I asked "what offensive skillset is hardest to guard in the playoffs?" I rated Hakeem's dynamic post ability first and KG 3rd for not being as post centric, whereas post play can be a go-to option that collapses the defense's plans, although KG also floor spaces the most

How can you pick Garnett over Kareem? 2004 Garnett was not his peak defensively, peak Kareem, especially Bucks Kareem was not that far away on that end. And on offense Garnett gets blown away.

The-Power · Post #31 » by **The-Power** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:10 pm

GoldenFrieza21 wrote:
How can you pick Garnett over Kareem? 2004 Garnett was not his peak defensively, peak Kareem, especially Bucks Kareem was not that far away on that end. And on offense Garnett gets blown away.

This doesn't become true just because you say so. Smart posters on this board wrote whole treatises about the likes of Garnett, Robinson etc., those can't be simply washed away by one sentence of yours.

thizznation · Post #32 » by **thizznation** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:23 pm

The-Power wrote:
GoldenFrieza21 wrote:
How can you pick Garnett over Kareem? 2004 Garnett was not his peak defensively, peak Kareem, especially Bucks Kareem was not that far away on that end. And on offense Garnett gets blown away.

This doesn't become true just because you say so. Smart posters on this board wrote whole treatises about the likes of Garnett, Robinson etc., those can't be simply washed away by one sentence of yours.

Everything Frieza said is true. 2004 Garnett was not his best year defensively and that Kareem was better than Garnett offensively, dramatically so in the playoffs. Garnett has an rebounding edge over KAJ but that is about it.

The-Power · Post #33 » by **The-Power** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:33 pm

thizznation wrote:
The-Power wrote:
GoldenFrieza21 wrote:
How can you pick Garnett over Kareem? 2004 Garnett was not his peak defensively, peak Kareem, especially Bucks Kareem was not that far away on that end. And on offense Garnett gets blown away.

This doesn't become true just because you say so. Smart posters on this board wrote whole treatises about the likes of Garnett, Robinson etc., those can't be simply washed away by one sentence of yours.

Everything Frieza said is true. 2004 Garnett was not his best year defensively and that Kareem was better than Garnett offensively, dramatically so in the playoffs. Garnett has an rebounding edge over KAJ but that is about it.

Then I'll recommend to read the posts of drza, for instance. I find it really presumptuous, to be absolutely honest, to provide no reasoning whatsoever while trying to discredit some people's stance - argued in great detail with lots of compelling evidence and points - as absurd. Nothing against you (I actually like you as a poster) or GoldenFrieza but this is exactly the kind of "discussion" which helps nobody and destroys the discussion culture. Bad enough that we get to see this in other threads but I really hoped this project would be different.

If someone firmly believes that Garnett has no case over Kareem then why not answering the posts who advocate KG in detail? If what you believe is that obvious it shouldn't be much of task, should it?

thizznation · Post #34 » by **thizznation** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:59 pm

The-Power wrote:
thizznation wrote:
The-Power wrote:This doesn't become true just because you say so. Smart posters on this board wrote whole treatises about the likes of Garnett, Robinson etc., those can't be simply washed away by one sentence of yours.

Everything Frieza said is true. 2004 Garnett was not his best year defensively and that Kareem was better than Garnett offensively, dramatically so in the playoffs. Garnett has an rebounding edge over KAJ but that is about it.

Then I'll recommend to read the posts of drza, for instance. I find it really presumptuous, to be absolutely honest, to provide no reasoning whatsoever while trying to discredit some people's stance - argued in great detail with lots of compelling evidence and points - as absurd. Nothing against you (I actually like you as a poster) or GoldenFrieza but this is exactly the kind of "discussion" which helps nobody and destroys the discussion culture. Bad enough that we get to see this in other threads but I really hoped this project would be different.

If someone firmly believes that Garnett has no case over Kareem then why not answering the posts who advocate KG in detail? If what you believe is that obvious it shouldn't be much of task, should it?

I will try to go into more detailed posts later. I posted because I thought that nothing Frieza said was outlandish. I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that 2004 Kevin Garnett wasn't head and shoulders better defensively than Milwakee Kareem. The stats we have that compare the both of them show that Kareem was a better rim protecter while Garnett was a more versatile defender and could guard the perimeter better.

Offensively Garnett does not have the efficiency that Kareem does and in the playoffs Garnett's numbers go south while Kareem's go north. I understand that 10 games shouldn't overwrite 82 but when those 10~ games are the most important in the season and you are comparing two players and one of their numbers goes up and the others goes down. Then it starts to become a serious factor.

Post #35 » by **Quotatious** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:29 am

Ballot #1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar '77

Ballot #2 - Wilt Chamberlain '64

Ballot #3 - Hakeem Olajuwon '93

I've already provided my reasoning for Kareem and Wilt in the previous thread, but I'll just say this - Kareem is ranked higher than Wilt because he elevated his game in the playoffs, while Wilt stayed about the same - both won one playoff series, so the fact that Wilt made the finals, while Kareem lost in conference finals, is irrelevant - it's merely a matter of nomenclature, because both accomplished about the same. Both played against other all-time elite centers in their primes - Russell and Walton, and I'm more impressed with Kareem's performance against Walton, than Wilt's performance against Russell.
Abdul-Jabbar's offensive game was clearly better in my opinion. He had about the same scoring average as Chamberlain if you adjust for 100 possessions, they also have about the same assists, but Kareem is much more efficient as a scorer, both in absolute and league-relative terms). Wilt has the edge on defense and on the boards, but I don't think it's as important as Kareem's edge in terms of scoring. KAJ beats Wilt by a significant margin when it comes to facing really tough defenses in the playoffs, as a scorer. Offensive decline is expected if you face THE best defense in NBA history, like Wilt did in the '64 finals ('64 was the best year for the Celtics on defense, in terms of relative DRtg), and Wilt still averaged almost 30 ppg on clearly above average efficiency for that year. That's pretty good, I can't say he really declined that much (maybe just slightly, taking the strength of the opposing defense, and the direct matchup at the center position, into account). At any rate, KAJ improved his scoring AND overall game in the '77 playoffs. Wilt did not. As I've said before, '77 Kareem reminds me a lot of '09 LeBron - both players carried mediocre supporting casts to a great record in the RS, and stepped up their already fantastic game even more. From an individual standpoint, they had better playoff runs than many of the top 10 caliber players had during their championship seasons, so the fact that LBJ and KAJ didn't win titles in '77 and '09 is unimportant for me. We know they were both capable of doing that, with stronger supporting casts.

Choosing between '93 (or '94) Hakeem and '03 (or '02) Duncan was EXTREMELY tough to do, for me. I've decided to go with Olajuwon because he was able to get extremely comparable numbers (I mean advanced numbers) against clearly better competition and I think Hakeem's scoring is the biggest advantage one of them has over the other. Also, I consider Olajuwon to be a bit better defensively, more mobile, more capable of being a truly devastating pick & roll defender (that would come into play even more in today's league, than it did in the mid 90s).

'93 Hakeem was slightly better statistically than the '94 version, slightly better defensively (a little bit better athleticism - quicker, more agile, higher motor), and already had pretty good passing ability and great, polished scoring. Also, '93 was a better FT shooter.

Era-relative dominance (and superior advanced stats, at least as much as those incomplete advanced stats for Wilt and Kareem are worth) is the only reason why I have Wilt and Kareem over Hakeem and Duncan. They are all extremely close. I just think that Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar had fewer peers at their position during their respective careers. Maybe it's not 100% fair to Olajuwon and Duncan, who played in more "mature", developed eras of NBA history, but I still do think that Wilt and Kareem stand out from the crowd a bit more. They only had one real rival, one guy who came close to them - Russell for Wilt, and Walton for Kareem. Meanwhile, Hakeem had Robinson, Shaq, maybe also Ewing and Malone (if we count PFs as rivals for Hakeem), Duncan had Shaq, KG, Dirk.

After the "Big 3" of MJ, Shaq and LeBron, I think it gets even more unclear. A lot of great candidates. I can see a strong case for Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem and Duncan for #4. It's real hair-splitting.

We are voting for #4 right now, and I've already changed the order of my all-time peaks list...Put LeBron over MJ, Shaq over Wilt, Kareem over Wilt and Hakeem...(initially, I had Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, in this regard, then Duncan 7th and Russell 8th).

The-Power · Post #36 » by **The-Power** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:43 am

thizznation wrote:I will try to go into more detailed posts later. I posted because I thought that nothing Frieza said was outlandish. I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that 2004 Kevin Garnett wasn't head and shoulders better defensively than Milwakee Kareem. The stats we have that compare the both of them show that Kareem was a better rim protecter while Garnett was a more versatile defender and could guard the perimeter better.

Every data we have suggests that KG has been one of the best defenders in the NBA for years, arguably even the best defender since DRAPM is available. We can't say the same about Kareem like it's a given thing. And which rim protection stats are available for Kareem?

thizznation wrote:Offensively Garnett does not have the efficiency that Kareem does and in the playoffs Garnett's numbers go south while Kareem's go north. I understand that 10 games shouldn't overwrite 82 but when those 10~ games are the most important in the season and you are comparing two players and one of their numbers goes up and the others goes down. Then it starts to become a serious factor.

Individual scoring efficiency is only one part of the offense and not even the most important one. When someone evaluates a player like KG citing his volume and efficiency and bases his reasoning on it, I tend to move away without much further ado because it's not worth the effort. Not saying you're one of them but these people come here in spades, unfortunately.

We have posters who have spent hours and hours analyzing players in great detail and defending their point extensively but still, often all they get as a respond are a few sentences who don't even focus on what was written. This can become frustrating and I admire some guys for their patience in such a discussion. Great analysis deserves a detailed reply, not one-liners with a 'are you crazy?'-undertone (which is what happened in Frieza's case; he didn't directly referred to a comprehensive analysis but in the end it's directed at everyone who has KG this high). And I also find it almost amusing when the question 'how can one rank him this high?' arised, because the 'how?' has already been addressed multiple times (over the last years, months and even during this project). Wondering why there is no reply to them.

mtron929 · Post #37 » by **mtron929** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:52 am

Garnett's 04 season is overrated for a variety of reasons. One thing that I have never seen mentioned is the following.

Garnett is unique amongst superstars in the sense that he did not achieve any success in the playoffs for quite an extended period of time while he was in the NBA. Before the 04 season, he had 7 straight years where his team went 1 and done in the playoffs. I am not necessarily blaming Garnett for this (although I think guys like Jordan, Shaq, or Lebron would have done much better with the same squad), but setting up the following point. Most superstars in the NBA hit their prime when they are 27-28. However, most superstars do not value the regular season as much when they hit that age given that they start to focus more on the playoffs (that is why you see a lot of guy's raw numbers drop after first 4-5 years in the league). However for Garnett, it was different. Because he has had zero success in the playoffs, I suspect that with new teammates in the 04 season, Garnett treated the whole season like it was the playoffs. It was important for him to accumulate a great regular season record to optimize the chance of advancing in the playoffs. Accordingly, it is not surprising that his physical peak (27-28 years old) coinciding with providing so much effort in the regular season yielded a monster season. Which is great and all, but even at his peak (i.e. 04), I don't value his potentiality to do damage that high. In fact, I would rather roll my chance with 06 or 11 Dirk over 04 Garentt when building a team to win a championship if I am assured an average team.

thizznation · Post #38 » by **thizznation** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:57 am

The-Power wrote:Every data we have suggests that KG has been one of the best defenders in the NBA for years, arguably even the best defender since DRAPM is available. We can't say the same about Kareem like it's a given thing. And which rim protection stats are available for Kareem?

Well because Kevin Garnett is the best defender since DRAPM has been available doesn't mean a whole lot when compared to Kareem. I think in Kareem's time he was one of the best defenders in the league, just because we don't have DRAPM data for Kareem you can't just assume the worst from him.

Also becareful when throwing around best defender since DRAPM because if you are going as '04 as your peak that is just not true. I believe '08 Garnett has the best DRAPM scores, not '04 Garnett.

For my reasoning why Kareem is a better rim protector than KG. Blocks per 100 possession and their overall stylistic differences. Kareem is longer but less mobile and is staying around the hoop more often than Kevin Garnett.

The-Power wrote:Individual scoring efficiency is only one part of the offense and not even the most important one. When someone evaluates a player like KG citing his volume and efficiency and bases his reasoning on it, I tend to move away without much further ado because it's not worth the effort. Not saying you're one of them but these people come here in spades, unfortunately.

We have posters who have spent hours and hours analyzing players in great detail and defending their point extensively but still, often all they get as a respond are a few sentences who don't even focus on what was written. This can become frustrating and I admire some guys for their patience in such a discussion. Great analysis deserves a detailed reply, not one-liners with a 'are you crazy?'-undertone (which is what happened in Frieza's case; he didn't directly referred to a comprehensive analysis but in the end it's directed at everyone who has KG this high). And I also find it almost amusing when the question 'how can one rank him this high?' arised, because the 'how?' has already been addressed multiple times (over the last years, months and even during this project). Wondering why there is no reply to them.

Well I'm not going to buy that Kevin Garnett's assist numbers create a better offense than Kareem's superior scoring. If I ever have the choice of scoring or assists from my best player I'm going to choose scoring.

drza · Post #39 » by **drza** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Garnett's defense in '04

This will be a short post, because I'm actually eating dinner with the family now and I slid out of the room to write this. I saw the question arise about KG's defensive level in 2004. Someone pointed out that this wasn't necessarily his defensive peak. We could discuss that further, but I can see that point. However, it was still a monster defensive season. And the quickest way to illustrate that is with DRAPM. That's right...

Warning: RAPM incoming!

In 2004, KG finished 3rd in PI defensive RAPM behind only peak Ben Wallace and peak Tim Duncan. Using Doc MJ's scaled RAPM spreadsheet (to allow for easier comparing across seasons), KG's scaled DRAPM of +5.69 would have been:

Among the top-5 DRAPM scores for every player on the list. Duncan. Big Ben. Mutombo. Whoever. From 1998 - 2012, no player had 5 defensive seasons better than KG's 2004 season. So it was a strong year.

But this might make it clearer: KG's +5.69 scaled DRAPM score from 2004 would have led the entire NBA in 2006, 2007, and 2012. It also would have led everyone except KG himself in 2008 and 2011. It'd have been third in 2009 and 2010, like it was in 2004.

In other words...Garnett's 2004 defensive RAPM score would be the best, 2nd best, or 3rd best score for every NBA season from 2004 until (at least) 2012. KG in 2004 was a defensive monster, and the only reason he didn't lead the NBA is that it WAS the peak season for 2 other Mount Rushmore defensive players of his generation.

Was Kareem 1977 playing defense at that level? I'll leave that for someone else to flesh out. I see he led the league in blocks and was a strong rebounder, but I'd love to see someone really break down his defense from that year. But unless he was playing at the level of of the GOAT defenders, then more than likely Garnett has a reasonable defensive advantage over him in that season.

My 2 cents.

mischievous · Post #40 » by **mischievous** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:51 am

Ill be getting my ballots in sometime tommorow, Hakeem will probably be my number 1 pick, but Wilt will be in that mix and Kareem not far behind. I'm not ready to discuss Drob or KG yet. Duncan should go in over them.