Peaks project #6

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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#21 » by eminence » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:45 am

trex_8063 wrote:
eminence wrote:Not really relevant quite yet as I feel the real elite two way big men will continue to dominate the polls for a bit (Duncan and the like). But how do people like to compare the elite offensive big-men who lack a bit on defense to the elite offensive perimeter players (who have a bit of a cap to how much they can contribute on defense). Guys like Karl/Barkley/Dirk vs Magic/Curry and the like. In general when I first look at it the perimeter players usually bring a bit more offensively while the big guys have a bit more value on defense. But an idea I've been toying with recently is that the big men are costing there team a bit in kind of an opportunity cost kind of way on defense, where the guards aren't, so the guards are inching ahead in my mind. Any value to this thought path or any other thoughts on it from anyone else?


There's value to this line of thought, for sure. Though fwiw, lumping Karl in with Barkley and Dirk (as far as defense is concerned) is not at all accurate. He's probably at least 1-2 tiers (depending on how many tiers you favor) ahead of each of them defensively: he was a solid low-post defender and the master of "pulling the chair", was good on pnr D, better than most PF's if caught guarding a perimeter player on a switch (because he had good quickness and was giving solid effort on defense), and was quick enough that he gambled well on passing lanes (note his stl/100 poss and stl% stats very nearly rival that of Lebron James......that's awfully damn good for PF). Note also was 4-time All-Defensive Team (3 of those 1st team), fwiw.

So....he's not Draymond Green, but he's definitely getting you your money's worth on defense.


Absolutely true in all of that, I just always think of those three power forwards together, so I wrote them all, whoops :)

I suppose in reverse of my first idea I'd have to penalize guards who weren't quite carrying as much of the offensive load as they "should be", but I can't think of a single guard who'd be making this list primarily on his defense... Maybe Payton/Kidd, but Payton I remember really peaking on the opposite sides of the ball at different times and don't really expect him in the top 30 for sure, 50 maybe. Kidd I think might have a bit more of a case, but still seems really borderline.

Soon I think we'll see the really fun part of the project where opinions really start to diverge.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#22 » by Quotatious » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:46 am

Ballot #1 - Hakeem Olajuwon '94

Ballot #2 - Tim Duncan '03

Ballot #3 - Bill Russell '62


Hakeem ahead of Duncan because as he was a better, more reliable scorer - as this post from Djoker proves:

Spoiler:
Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).


Duncan had his fair share of series where when his scoring was mediocre. Even though it's not really a problem in '03, he still didn't really dominate as a scorer in every series, sometimes when his team could've won more easily if he did dominate as scorer. In the first round series against Phoenix, he averaged only 18.7 ppg. Pretty good efficiency - 58.4% TS, but his turnovers were very high, too - 18.4% TOV, so his efficiency wasn't that great, and Phoenix wasn't even a top 10 defensive team. Obviously he was great all-around - fantastic rebounder, excellent playmaker for a bigman, great defense. Also, had 15/20/10/4 in the last game of that series, made up for his mediocre scoring in that game (only 4/12 FG and 7/11 FT for 15 points) in other areas.

Besides, the point Djoker made about Hakeem facing superior competition, and playing better against much better competition than Duncan sometimes played against clearly worse competition, resonates with me. That's my main argument for Hakeem over Tim.

I've decided to switch from '93 Hakeem to the '94 version, because after watching a bit more of Olajuwon in the '93 vs '94 playoffs, it seemed to me that he was clearly more assertive and aggressive in terms of looking for his own shot, he took over games like a real superstar should. I think the Rockets would've won the '93 series against Seattle with '94 Hakeem instead of '93. He would've likely averaged something in the high 20s, even approaching 30 ppg, on similar efficiency (56-57% TS), and that would've been enough for the Rockets to win the series.

So, I don't think the superior regular season advanced metrics in '93 are as important as the superior confidence he had in '94. If I wanted to go by advanced stats, I should take '02 Duncan instead of '03, too. However, I think there's basically no functional difference between '93 and '94 versions of Hakeem, or '02 and '03 versions Duncan, in terms of their impact on winning. Just like Spaceman alluded to in one of the earlier threads (#1, if I recall correctly), we tend to view the gaps in terms of production as much more important than they really are. Those gaps may seem to be clear, like it is the case with '93 and '94 regular season versions of Hakeem, but they are almost nonexistent when you watch him play.
Actually, I think it's likely that their non-boxscore impact was slightly higher in '94 and '03, even in the RS - for Duncan, we actually know that for sure - he had clearly higher on/off court ORtg differential in '03 compared to '02 (+14.7 in '03, +9.4 in '02), and superior single year RAPM score in '03, too (+6.1 to +5.2). The same is likely to be true for Hakeem, as well. I'll take the championship seasons of both guys.

Besides, I think that Olajuwon was a little bit better on defense. More active, slightly better shotblocker - those things can add up. Obviously I'm really splitting hairs here, but you have to do it, because all of those comparisons in this project have been very close so far.

Russell is my #3, because he was THE best defender of all-time, better than Olajuwon or Duncan or anyone else in NBA history, but offensively, while Russell could be useful (especially the '62 version, which was his highest scoring season, on slightly above average efficiency for that era, and even more so in the playoffs, when he raised his scoring average from 18.9 to 22.4, and raised his efficiency from 48.9% TS to 51.9, while also averaging 5 assists per game in the postseason), he was still far worse than Olajuwon and Duncan. I think the gap on offense in their favor is bigger than the gap on defense in Russell's favor. Russell was also a better rebounder than both of them (especially compared to Hakeem), using Trex's estimated per 100 possession numbers, Russell averaged 19.1 rpg in '62, Duncan averaged 17.5 in '03, Olajuwon averaged 14.7 in '94. He was also likely an even better leader, in terms of intangibles.

Anyway, I feel fairly comfortable saying that Olajuwon and Duncan could've won the title if they replaced Russell on the '62 Celtics, because they'd likely still anchor the #1 defense in the league (maybe not necessarily as dominant as Russell, but at least close), while I really can't see Russell leading the '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs to the title in those years. He just wouldn't be able to anchor their offense anywhere near as well as Hakeem/Tim did, and those teams relied heavily on their superstar bigmen for scoring and playmaking from the post. Russell is only mediocre in those areas (he was certainly decent by 1962 standards, but would be totally unimpressive in the 90s or 00s).

I respect the fact that some guys (like Chuck Texas) would rather avoid time-machine type comparisons, because it's often pure speculation, but for me, personally, time-machine speculation is a must (as well as having per 100 possession numbers, to be able to at least make an educated guess about what we could expect from the old school players today, or modern players if they played back in the 60s). I believe you can make a decently accurate prediction of that stuff (maybe like 80% accurate, which is a high enough probability for me to be able to speak with some sort of conviction).

I have the utmost respect for the great Bill Russell. On and off the court, his contributions to the game of basketball are absolutely enormous. I even had the famous picture of Russell with that pensive look on his face, and all those championship rings on his fingers, as my avatar. If my all-time list was based solely on how much each player dominated his own era, Russell and Jordan would be virtually equal as #1 GOAT. His game was an absolutely perfect fit for the era he played in. He just suffers when I compare him to modern superstar two-way bigs like peak Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, because his relatively poor offense would prevent him from having the same kind of impact in today's game. His supreme intellectual approach to the game wouldn't make as big of as difference today, with the vastly superior scouting and coaching that we have today, and even though he would still be the best rebounder and probably also defender, in the league today (basically a rich man's Ben Wallace), his defensive impact definitely wouldn't translate 100% to today's game, because of the emphasis on stretching the floor and running much more perimeter-oriented offenses, than it was the case in the 50s and 60s, when teams were just clogging the lane, shooting was much less accurate, especially from long range, and teams had no extra incentive to take 20+ feet shots, because the 3-point line didn't exist. Russell would just naturally have less opportunities to affect the game on defense, because players today are not going to the rim like 75-80% of the time, like it seemed to be the case in the 60s. He would still be able to bother perimeter players and shooters in half-court, because of his GOAT level mobility for a center, his cat-like quickness, agility and great leaping ability, plus he would still have absolutely elite timing and anticipation, even by today's standards. I can imagine about 90-95% of his defensive impact translating to today's game, which would still make him a perennial DPOY (or at least a perennial DPOY candidate, and a 3 or 4 time winner), which just shows how incredible his defense was, if 90% of Russell is still a DPOY today, but the thing is, that 5-10% which separated him from the best modern defensive anchors like Olajuwon, Robinson, Mutombo, Wallace etc., (I mean it separates him if we compare those guys to Russell in terms of era-relative impact), would be gone.

I've decided to go with '62 Russell instead of '64 or '65, because he already anchored a GOAT level defense (-8.5 league relative DRtg, which would be the third best ever, slightly behind the '04 Spurs, who had -8.8, and '08 Celtics, at -8.6, if we hypothetically assumed that the '64 and '65 Celtics who had -10.8 and -9.4, didn't exist), and he averaged 23.6 rebounds per game, which is 1.1 more rebounds than his career average (I mean that's his RS average - in the playoffs, he averaged 26.4 that year, 1.5 more than his career playoff average), but he seemed to be a better offensive player in '62, compared to '64 and '65. Again, obviously I'm nit-picking, but I think '62 was the most balanced version of Russell, and he also had one of the best playoff runs of his career that year, individually (plus, the icing on the cake - he beat Wilt's Warriors, in Chamberlain's 50 ppg season - well, he wasn't a 50 ppg scorer against Russell in the postseason - he dropped to 33.6 points (by the way - anyone knows what was his efficiency in that series? I know that he shot 50.8% TS in the '62 playoffs, compared to 53.6% in the regular season, and his efficiency in the Syracuse series was likely higher than 50.8% TS, so I guess it's possible that Russell held him to something below 50% TS - that would mean he held him almost 17 ppg below his RS average, and about 4-5 percent below his regular season TS%).
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#23 » by eminence » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:30 am

My take on Hakeem vs Duncan (my two primary contenders for this spot). Using 93-94 and 02-03 stats.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=1994&p1=olajuha01&y2=2003&p2=duncati01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

A offensive general summary: Regular season Hakeem scored at a bit higher rate, but Duncan was more efficient, generated more assists, grabbed more offensive boards, drew more fouls, and generally led in all offensive advanced stats. Turnovers even. Solid advantage Duncan.

Post season Hakeem expanded the scoring volume gap (from 2 to about 5 pp100) while Duncan continued to lead in efficiency. Assists, Rebounds, and fouls drawn also all stayed in Duncan's favor, with advanced stats still favoring Duncan as well. Small advantage to Duncan in turnovers. Advantage Duncan.

So offensively Hakeem was a better volume scorer, but Duncan was the superior overall offensive player.

A defensive summary: Regular season Hakeem generated significantly more steals and slightly more blocks. Duncan has the advantage on the glass and also fouls less. Advanced stats slightly in favor of Hakeem. Slim advantage Hakeem.

Post season: Hakeem expands the gaps in steals/blocks by just a bit. Rebounding remains in favor of Duncan, fouls a bit closer, but still in favor of Duncan. Advanced stats this time basically a wash (Duncan vs Hakeem) 92v97 drating, 2.7v2.0 dws, 5.4v5.7 dbpm. Maybe a tiny advantage Hakeem?, really too close to call for me.

Overall Hakeem seemed to be a slightly better defender for the seasons.

Honestly this went almost exactly the opposite of how I expected... I have visions of Hakeem with beautiful offensive moves while I remember Duncan seemingly always being in the right place at the right time on D. I really expected to say offensive advantage Hakeem and defensive advantage Duncan, but I wound up with the exact opposite. I feel Duncan performed better in the playoffs than Hakeem, continuing to outperform Hakeem on offense and stepping his defense up to match. Anywho, in all I think Duncan had a larger advantage on offense than Hakeem had on defense, so overall I prefer Duncan as of now.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#24 » by SactoKingsFan » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:37 am

1st ballot: 65 Bill Russell

Russell had unparalleled defensive impact while anchoring historically dominant defenses. Since Russell's defensive impact was so huge, I don't think it makes sense to rank his peak much lower than top 5 unless he was a major negative/liability on offense. Although Russell's offensive skill-set was limited, I think he was far from a major liability on offense due to his underrated passing and ball handling. His passing and ball handling were more than good enough for Russell to be a valuable secondary passer when needed and initiate fast breaks. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that Russell was a plus on offense, however, I highly doubt he was worse than a slight minus, which wouldn't take much away from his GOAT level defensive impact. Ā Ā 

2nd ballot: 93 Hakeem Olajuwon

I could also go with 94, but I think 93 was Hakeem's top regular season with his best combination of offense and defense. Also had one of his most impressive playoffs, especially on defense.

3rd ballot: 04 Kevin Garnett

Although it looks like Duncan will get voted in at least a couple spots ahead of Garnett, I have to give at least a slight edge to peak Garnett. I prefer his more diverse/versatile and extremely portable skill-set and think he had higher overall impact than Duncan due to his GOAT level PnR defense, all-time great passing/playmaking for a big and ability to warp defenses with his shooting range. Garnett led the 04 Wolves to the 2nd best SRS and a top 5 offense (+3 relative ORtg) and top 6 defense (-3.2 relative DRtg), which is more impressive than it sounds since his supporting cast wasn't anything special on offense (Cassell was the exception) and full of subpar defenders.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#25 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:08 am

1. Hakeem Olajuwon 1994
RS: 27.3 PPG 11.9 RPG 3.6 APG 1.6 SPG 3.7 BPG 3.4 TOPG 25.3 PER 56.5ts% 21 WS/48.
58 wins for Houston in the regular season. Onyle behind the Sonics who had a great team. Hakeem won MVP and DPOY and it was well deserved. Great impact on both sides of the court, leading a team with no 2nd star (despite having a good cast) to that great record. He was scoring, blocking, rebounding, assisting, stealing and living up to his legendary reputation, both on offense and specially on D.

Playoffs: 28.9 PPG 11.0 RPG 4.3 APG 1.7 SPG 4.0 BPG 3.6 TOPG 27.7 PER 56.8 ts% 20.8 WS/48.
Jordan had Pippen. LeBron had Bosh/Wade. Shaq had Kobe Bryant. Hakeem had Kenny Smith, Maxwell, Otis, Horry and Sam Cassel. It's a great cast don't get me wrong, but he won without a 2nd great player like those guys had. And despite being great on offense, the most interesting thing to look at is his D. Karl Malone in the WCF scored 26 PPG but at 50.5ts%. Barkley scored 23.4 PPG at 53.2ts% in the 2nd round vs Houston, and Ewing scored 18.9 at 39%ts in the NBA finals! Those numbers will indeed show the kind of impact Hakeem had on D.

Also he won MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in the same season. That's a very restrict club: only Hakeem has done that.

2. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

3. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#26 » by eminence » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:54 am

1st Ballot: Tim Duncan 02-03 - Went into more detail on Duncan vs Hakeem earlier in the thread. Gist of it is that despite Hakeem's variety of moves Duncan was the more reliable offensive player while they played similar levels of defense.

2nd Ballot: Hakeem Olajuwon 92-93 - Staying above KG/Robinson for me due to better playoff performances (not that those guys were terrible, but Hakeem managed to raise his level of play).

3rd Ballot: Kevin Garnett 03-04 - Very very close between Robinson and KG in this spot to me. Thoughts: both were top 5 defenders, but I have a slight edge to Robinson there. On offense I think Robinson was a bit better scorer, but in general KG was the better option to run an offense through out of the high post. Both had their relative playoff "struggles", in case of a virtual tie I usually give it to the offensive player, so KG here.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#27 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:50 pm

SKF_85 wrote:1st ballot: 65 Bill Russell

Russell had unparalleled defensive impact while anchoring historically dominant defenses. Since Russell's defensive impact was so huge, I don't think it makes sense to rank his peak much lower than top 5 unless he was a major negative/liability on offense. Although Russell's offensive skill-set was limited, I think he was far from a major liability on offense due to his underrated passing and ball handling. His passing and ball handling were more than good enough for Russell to be a valuable secondary passer when needed and initiate fast breaks. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that Russell was a plus on offense, however, I highly doubt he was worse than a slight minus, which wouldn't take much away from his GOAT level defensive impact. Ā Ā 

2nd ballot: 93 Hakeem Olajuwon

I could also go with 94, but I think 93 was Hakeem's top regular season with his best combination of offense and defense. Also had one of his most impressive playoffs, especially on defense.

3rd ballot: 04 Kevin Garnett

Although it looks like Duncan will get voted in at least a couple spots ahead of Garnett, I have to give at least a slight edge to peak Garnett. I prefer his more diverse/versatile and extremely portable skill-set and think he had higher overall impact than Duncan due to his GOAT level PnR defense, all-time great passing/playmaking for a big and ability to warp defenses with his shooting range. Garnett led the 04 Wolves to the 2nd best SRS and a top 5 offense (+3 relative ORtg) and top 6 defense (-3.2 relative DRtg), which is more impressive than it sounds since his supporting cast wasn't anything special on offense (Cassell was the exception) and full of subpar defenders.


I never saw Russell playing but how do you feel about Hakeem's defensive impact against Russell's?

Because if you're considering Russell a slight minus on offense (I don't know, I don't have an opinion on that) I feel like Hakeem absolutely crushes him in that regard. And it's hard for me to imagine a defensive impact that is much better than Hakeem's. He's clearly the player with the most impact I ever saw on defense.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#28 » by bastillon » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:34 pm

Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).


You nailed it.

The main difference between Duncan and Dream in terms of individual scoring ability, is performance against high level competition. While Duncan can dominate to a similar degree vs. low quality defensive players, he's simply mediocre against ATGs. Duncan has NEVER showed profficiency against the level of players that Dream has dismantled.

This is extremely important when comparing ATGs. It makes no difference whether you are able to dominate low quality opposition. As has been proven time and time again, the most common similarity of championship caliber teams is all-defensive big man in the lineup. So basically - if you wanna win a title, you have to go through great defensive big men at some point in time. This is why Duncan's offensive stats don't paint an accurate picture.

You have to distinguish his stats into two categories:
1) stats against low quality/average quality bigs
2) stats against strong defensive big men

To the list of players you have mentioned I would also add Karl Malone in 2004, where Duncan was completely shutdown in the last 4 games of the series (and Spurs got reversed swept). I mean look at some of those games:
G3: 10 pts, 4-14, 6 turnovers, 2 assists
G4: 19 pts, 5-13, 2 turnovers, 8 assists
G5: 21 pts, 7-15, 7 turnovers, 2 assists
G6: 20 pts, 7-18, 2 turnovers, 2 assists

This coincided with Spurs struggling mightily on offense averaging about 82 ppg.

Another obvious example was 2001 playoffs against the Lakers, where Spurs were totally dismantled. Horace Grant was fine basically guarding Duncan single coverage most of the time. I won't even bother quoting any stats. Spurs were being roasted. Similarly, his performance in 2008 WCF against Gasol was incredibly underwhelming. He posted 22 ppg/5 assists on 46% TS with the Lakers defense being specifically designed to guard Duncan 1 on 1. Those stats don't even tell the whole story. Duncan scored many pts off of Parker/Manu penetrations. He was basically a non-threat 1 on 1 at that point - you could leave him in single coverage and be just fine. That's not even taking into account that he was posting about 15 ppg against Tyson Chandler the series before that.

What is the primary consequence of those examples?

There is an alarming trend during Duncan's career where he struggles offensively against quality defensive big men. You would be hard pressed to find an example where Duncan dismantles high quality opposition. He actually feasted on mismatches like vs my Suns, but he was never able to dominate quality defenders. This trend is not just a couple examples, the list goes on and on:

-99 and 01 KG
-99 and 05 Sheed
-01 Horace Grant
-04 Karl Malone
-05 and 07 Camby
-07 Varejao
-08 Tyson Chandler
-08 Gasol

It covers all of Duncan's prime. It lists pretty much every good defender he has faced during his playoff career. It shows that he consistently underperformed individually. The stats in those playoff series show a consistent trend. Trend that says Duncan can't sustain his offensive production against quality big men. Which in fact means, that he can't sustain his production when it matters the most.

What's amazing is that some of those guys aren't even known for their defense. Take Camby for example - obviously he is a great shotblocker/rebounder but nobody considers him elite post defender. Not even close, he's just ok at best. Gasol is better as a man defender than team defender, but nobody would consider him a shutdown post defender either way. It's not like you're going mad cuz you're facing Pau Gasol.

Now contrast this list of guys with players that Hakeem has dismantled in the playoffs:
-86 Kareem, not a great post defender but easily at the level of Camby or Gasol
-Walton/Parish/McHale/Bird frontline - one of the best defensive frontlines ever
-94 and 95 Spencer/Malone
-94 Ewing/Mason/Oakley
-95 Shaq/Grant
-95 D-Rob/Rodman
-97 Perkins/Kemp

Hakeem has faced the stiffest defensive competition of any player ever. He has showed consistently that he cannot be stopped. Go find the number of games during which prime Hakeem with the right system around him scores less than 25 pts in a playoff game. That almost never happened. 25 pts would seem like a mountain for Duncan if he was competing against the likes of D-Rob or prime Karl Malone.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
drza
Analyst
Posts: 3,518
And1: 1,861
Joined: May 22, 2001

Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#29 » by drza » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:36 pm

I'd like to see some more conversation, and about more players, but unfortunately since I'm at work I don't have time at the moment to really dig into any subjects myself. So, I figured I'd dig around old threads and find posts of interest. Here's a huge, informational post about Magic Johnson that ThaRegul8r posted in the last Peaks project:

ThaRegul8r wrote:Reposting.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:When speaking of the best peaks, I would think we would be comparing the best offensive & defensive peaks, along with the best 2-way peaks. MJ had a great offensive peak in 91', along with great defensive play. 87' Magic vs 64' Russell, how does that shake down? 64' Wilt vs 00' Shaq vs 94' Hakeem. 86' Bird vs 12' Lebron. What about 03' Duncan or 04' KG? Or great 2-way peaks like 06' Kobe & 94' DRob. I'm surprised at how few heated debates there have been.


Since obviously no one else is going to talk about some of these other people, I'll start with '87 Magic. I wasn't part of the Retro Player of the Year Project yet at that time, so it's someone different I haven't talked about here before.

New tricks
Lakers’ Magic adds scoring to act


Milwaukee Bucks Coach Don Nelson Tuesday was recalling a game four years ago between the Bucks and the Los Angeles Lakers in Inglewood, Calif.

ā€œI used Charlie Criss on Magic Johnson,ā€ said Nelson. ā€œAnd he never posted Charlie up once. They never looked to go down in there. Now, you can’t do that.ā€

The enormity of that mismatch is obvious. Criss, a former Bucks guard, is 5 feet 8 inches. Johnson is 6-9. But, as Nelson said, that was then and this is now. With Johnson becoming a more assertive offensive player this season, it’s doubtful that anyone could get away with that kind of mismatch.

Johnson is posting up — playing near the basket to make better use of his height advantage against smaller defenders — a lot more than he used to.

The ā€œnewā€ Magic Johnson will be one of the Bucks’ many concerns when they play the Lakers at 7:30 p.m. Wednesday at the Arena. The Lakers have the best record in the National Basketball Association, 15-3.

ā€œThey post Magic more,ā€ said Nelson. ā€œHe’s gotten much more aggressive offensively, and he’s scoring more.ā€

That he is. Going into the Lakers’ game Tuesday night against the Knicks in New York, Johnson ranked 17th in scoring in the NBA, averaging 20.8 points a game. Johnson had 22 points in the Lakers’ 113-87 victoty over the Knicks. Johnson had a career scoring average of 18.3 points going into this season, his eighth in the NBA.

For the first time in his career, Johnson is leading the Lakers in scoring.

It’s true that Johnson is shooting more this season. He’s averaging 14.3 shots per game compared with 12.7 last season, and 7.8 free-throw attempts compared with 6 last season. But it’s not as if he isn’t giving up the ball. Johnson leads the league in assists, averaging 11.2 a game.

ā€œThe Lakers are awesome, just awesome,ā€ says Nelson. ā€œBut it’s not just their talent. They’re well-coached, and they got the ball in the hands of a guy . . . is there a better guy to have handling the ball than Magic Johnson?ā€

New Jersey Nets Coach Dave Wohl, a former Lakers assistant, said the Post Up Magic Theory was something Lakers Coach Pat Riley toyed with when Wohl was with the Lakers.

ā€œThat was something Pat always wanted to do,ā€ said Wohl. ā€œThe problem is that Magic is so good with the ball and they have so many other weapons. It’s something you didn’t try to force.

ā€œThe main thing, I think after last year, was they were looking for more variety offensively and to exploit more things. At the end of last year, I think Pat thought they were too predictable. In the half-court, it was always going into Kareem. Or else it was the running game. It was either-or.

ā€œThis year, they’re looking for more weapons to go to occasionally.
ā€

The Lakers do have some lethal weapons. Center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, merely the most prolific scorer in the history of the game, ranks no better than third on the team in scoring behind Johnson and forward James Worthy.

Guard Byron Scott and swingman Michael Cooper also score in double figures and both rank in the top four in three-point field-goal percentage.

Wohl said that in a Lakers victory over New Jersey earlier this season, Johnson posted up only a couple of times. But the threat was always there.

ā€œIt’s not something they’re going to go to five, six or seven times in a row,ā€ said Wohl. ā€œUnless the mismatch is there or unless Kareem is out and they need Magic’s scoring.

ā€œIt’s not that Magic has been reluctant to post up in the past. He’s just never been a post-up player. Even in college.

ā€œPart of it is just getting him comfortable there. He can catch and create there just as well once he gets comfortable.

ā€œPat always liked him there but to change the half-court offense and to go to him time and again, everybody else would start standing around. What they’d like to do is find a nice balance.

ā€œMagic has gotten much more aggressive offensively. He’s looking for his shot. That’s a big plus. It’s opening up more things. You have to worry about him more.

ā€œHe’s playing the best I’ve ever seen him play.ā€


In December of 1986, Kareem had to miss several games due to an eye problem.

Abdul-Jabbar out of action with eye woes

LOS ANGELES — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has suffered a painful cornea disorder blamed on years of eye jabs during basketball games, and will not be able to play until at least Tuesday, the Los Angeles Lakers said Saturday.

ā€œApparently he’s been poked in the eye so many times in his career that something like this is going to happen from time to time,ā€ team spokesman Josh Rosenfeld said. ā€œWhen his cornea dries up he’s going to have a problem.ā€

The 39-year-old Abdul-Jabbar, the NBA’s first 18-season veteran and all-time leading scorer, has his right eye taped shut and patched and will be examined by doctors again Monday, Rosenfeld said.

Abdul-Jabbar’s eye began bothering him Friday during a flight to Dallas for Saturday night’s game against the Mavericks, Rosenfeld said. ā€œWhen he awoke (Saturday) morning the eye was inflamed and watering,ā€ he said.

The 7-foot-2 center, who for years has worn goggles to prevent eye injury, was treated by a Dallas doctor and told he had recurrent corneal erosion syndrome, Rosenfeld said. Abdul-Jabbar returned to Los Angeles on Saturday and will be examined by team doctors Monday.

In addition to the Dallas game, Abdul-Jabbar also will miss tonight’s Laker game against Houston, Rosenfeld said, adding that doctors will have to determine whether he’ll be fit to play Tuesday night at Sacramento.


And so just as he did in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals, Magic took over.

Johnson levitates ā€˜Magic’ act to new heights

His team was without a legitimate center, so he elevated his own game a notch and raised the level of his teammates in the process. He averaged 39.3 points from the guard position, and every time his team was desperate for a basket, he somehow found a way to score.

No, not Michael Jordan. We’re talking about Earvin ā€œMagicā€ Johnson. With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar sitting out because of a recurring corneal erosion syndrome in his right eye, the Magical one took matters into his own hands last week and reminded us that he, not Jordan, is the best guard in the National Basketball Association.

Magic scored 34 points in a losing cause at Dallas, then came back with 38 points (along with 16 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals and 2 turnovers) to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to victory the next night in Houston. He capped it off Tuesday by scoring a career-high 46 points in an overtime victory in Sacramento.

He put on a week-long show that summoned up memories of Game 6 of the 1980 NBA finals in his rookie season. Who could forget that performance? With Abdul-Jabbar sidelined and watching at home, Magic started at center and scored 42 points as the Lakers won at Philadelphia to sew up the title.

Once again, he has proven he can score whenever needed. But more important, Magic has demonstrated that precious ability — Larry Bird is the only player who compares — to shape the circumstances of his team, and make certain they do not lose.

The so-called experts — I humbly confess to having been among them — thought that the Lakers were ready for a slide this season. The feeling was that Pat Riley’s team had lost a step on the league, and its thin front line would enable other teams to overwhelm them late in the big games.

Magic hasn’t allowed it to happen. Riley told him to shoulder more of the scoring load, and he has dutifully responded. He is shooting more than at any time in his eight-year career and averaging 23.4 points a game, five above his career average.

And he is still getting his 11 or 12 assists a game, pulling down rebounds and sparking the Lakers’ brilliant perimeter defense. He has them playing at an unsually high emotional level for this early in the season, and the Lakers have the NBA’s best record — 20-6.

For all these reasons, Magic Johnson is our choice for Most Valuable Player after one-third of the season. Frankly, it’s about time he won the award. Despite leading the Lakers to three NBA titles in seven years, he has never been named MVP.

Michael Jordan has been phenomenal, but it would be a mistake to presume he is more valuable than Magic. Magic isn’t the sheer, unstoppable scorer that Jordan is, but if necessity compelled him to shoot 30 times a night, he’d put up some awesome numbers of his own.


During this three-game stretch, Magic averaged 39.3 points on 51.3 percent shooting from the floor, 90.9 percent shooting from the line and 61.9 percent true shooting, 8.3 rebounds and 13.3 assists.

Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers—averaging 28.5 points, 15.8 assists and 8.0 rebounds—was named player of the week in the National Basketball Association for the period ending Sunday.


He then followed it up by putting up 30 points on 11-for-20 shooting, 15 assists and three steals Dec. 26 in a 134-111 win over Houston when Kareem returned to the lineup, and 28 points on 12-for-17 shooting, eight rebounds and nine assists Dec. 28 in a 111-85 win over Philadelphia.

Magic was named NBA Player of the Month for December, averaging 27 points on 51.7 percent shooting and 59.2 percent true shooting, 7.4 rebounds, 11.5 assists and 1.86 steals as the Lakers went 10-4 for the month.

'INVISIBILITY' ACT OVER FOR MAGIC BIGGER ROLE MAY BRING DRAW HONORS

For the record, he insists that the slights and the also-ran finishes don't really bother him anymore. He flashes the familiar smile, talks about teamwork and championships, then lectures you, in a friendly sort of way, on how nothing else really matters in this game.

Certainly, it is an admirable way of looking at things, and you find yourself beginning to buy it. You find yourself wanting to believe that this is a man above the trappings of ego, a professional who has transcended the need for the ultimate spotlight.

Then Earvin Johnson hits a slightly sour note--nothing mean-spirited, certainly, but just enough to plant a seed of doubt. And suddenly, you realize there may be more to this picture than meets the eye, that perhaps, beneath the Magic, there is a little bit of hurt and disappointment, too.

"If I put individual goals first, I'd be a very angry person," he was saying in a less guarded moment at a recent practice of the Los Angeles Lakers. "But I don't do that."

He hasn't, and that is very much to Magic Johnson's credit. Still, part of him remains a bit confused about why unselfishness so often goes unrewarded, why the experts who supposedly understand this game never look beyond the numbers to see what he has done.

So behind the smiles and easy answers, there is another side to all this success. It is a side that privately wonders what it is he has to do to win them over, what it finally will take for the man who makes the Lakers go to be fully recognized for what he can do.

It is a remarkable record, on both sides of the coin. In seven NBA seasons, he has helped Los Angeles to three world championships and five Western Conference titles. He has led the league in assists in six of those years. In his rookie season (1979-80), he was named Most Valuable Player in the playoffs after his brilliant 42-point, 15-rebound performance in relief of the injured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as the Lakers won Game 6 and the championship in Philadelphia, and he came back to win the award again in 1982.

There are those who consider him the best player in the game today, and the debate almost always comes down to Johnson or Larry Bird. Still, the individual honors have lagged behind the achievements. No Rookie of the Year award. (Bird beat him 63-3 in the voting, although Johnson's team won the title that year.) No regular-season MVP award. No All-Star game MVP award.

Johnson has a simple answer for that.


"Scoring becomes a big part of it," he says, "and I haven't ever scored a lot of points."

There also is a less pleasant explanation.

"Sometimes, you get overlooked," he admitted. "Sometimes, you get old to them."

Perhaps. This year, however, there are some new touches to the old Magic, and not because Johnson has decided to chase the MVP award that his rival, Bird, already has won three times. Instead, it is coach Pat Riley's choice that Johnson should be a bit more selfish with the ball this season, and Johnson has obliged in dramatic fashion.

Through 33 games, he is averaging 23.4 points on 16.9 shots per game, up from career averages of 18.3 points and 12.5 shots. His field-goal percentage is down (54.2 to 50.8) but still is very respectable for a guard. Most remarkable of all, however, is his play-making: His average of 11.7 assists per game leads the league and is a full assist above his career average.

In other words, Johnson hasn't radically altered his game so much as he simply has added to it. So now, people are talking MVP. And now, Magic Johnson finds himself amused by the attention.

"They're saying I've raised my game to another level, and that's not true," he said. "I'm playing the same game. I could have been doing this seven years ago.

"But now, he (Riley) asks me to do it, and people are saying, 'Oh, he can do that, too.' It's just that no one ever asked me to do it before."

That he has been asked to do it is the ultimate compliment from the coach, a public acknowledgement that Johnson is a talent who can do whatever is needed for his team to win. Still, Johnson admits, old habits are hard to break, and it has taken him a while to learn to shoot first and ask questions later.

"It has been an adjustment," he said. "I've had to develop more of a scorer's mentality. Now, at certain points of the game, I have to be a little selfish."

So he is doing more, and people are noticing. And while the standard line on the Lakers is that everyone is doing more to take the burden off the aging but still brilliant Abdul-Jabbar, it is Johnson who is doing the most.

The scepter is passing, and the straight man is starting to get more of the good lines.

"It's a different role," says Johnson. "But I'm enjoying the responsibility of the added pressure. I play better when I have more responsibility."


From Jan. 2 to Jan. 19, Magic averaged 29.6 points on 51.4 percent shooting and 60.0 percent true shooting, 5.1 rebounds, 10.1 assists and 1.89 steals over 9 games in which the Lakers went 7-2.

Lakers' Johnson is player of the week
NEW YORK — Guard Earvin ā€œMagicā€ Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, who averaged 31.7 points, 10 assists and 6.3 rebounds in three Laker victories last week, was named NBA Player of the Week by the league Monday.

Johnson shot 56 percent from the field and 87 percent from the free throw line as the Lakers defeated Sacramento, Indiana and Boston.

He had 16 points and 13 assists against the Kings; 40 points, seven assists and six rebounds against the Pacers; and 39 points, 10 assists and six rebounds against the Celtics.


From Feb. 13 to Feb. 20, Magic averaged 32.8 points on 56.9 percent shooting from the floor, 88.7 percent shooting from the line and 65.4 percent true shooting, 7 rebounds and 11.8 assists as the Lakers went 4-1.

Los Angeles Lakers’ guard Magic Johnson, who averaged 26 points and 17.7 assists in three games last week, has been named NBA Player of the Week.


The Los Angeles Lakers’ Magic Johnson, who averaged 26.7 points, 16.3 assists and 9.7 rebounds and had two triple-doubles in three games last week, was named the NBA Player of the Week.

Johnson, who beat out Boston’s Larry Bird for the honor, shot .542 from the field and hit 27 of 32 free throw attempts as the Lakers extended their winning streak to 10 games, their longest of the season.


Magic was Player of the Month for March, averaging 21.7 points on 65.7 percent true shooting, 6.8 rebounds, 14.6 assists and 1.79 steals.

Lakers' Magic is player of the month
NEW YORK — Guard Earvin ā€œMagicā€ Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, who averaged 21.7 points and 14.6 assists in March, has been named the NBA’s Player of the Month, the league announced Wednesday. Johnson shot .589 from the field and .819 from the foul line last month as the Lakers won 13 of 14 games and clinched their sixth straight Pacific Division title. He leads the league with 12.3 assists per game and is 10th in scoring with an average of 23.9 points per game. Both Johnson and Chicago’s Michael Jordan have won the award twice this season.


From Mar. 31 to Apr. 5, Magic posted four consecutive triple doubles, averaging 28.3 points on 53.5 percent shooting from the floor and 58.2 percent true shooting, 10.3 rebounds, 11.8 assists and 1.5 steals in four Laker victories.

NEW YORK (AP) — Magic Johnson of the Los Angeles Lakers, who hit double figures in points, rebounds and assists in all four of his games, was named Monday as the NBA’s Player of the Week.

For the week, Johnson averaged 28.2 points [28.25], 11.8 assists and 10.2 rebounds [10.25]. He leads the NBA in assists with 12.3 a game and is ninth in points at 24.1.

Other nominees were Larry Bird of Boston, Buck Williams of New Jersey, Karl Malone of Utah and Xavier McDaniel of Seattle.


This triple-double streak began three games into a season-high 11-game winning streak from Mar. 26 to Apr. 16, during which Magic averaged 25.1 points on 57.2 percent shooting and 63.7 percent true shooting, 8 rebounds, 12.9 assists and 2.55 steals.

The Lakers finished the season 65-17, the best record of the Showtime era and the second-best record in franchise history behind the 1971-72 Lakers, who went an NBA-record 69-13. The Lakers led the league with a 115.6 offensive rating, the highest in NBA history. Magic won the NBA Most Valuable Player award after averaging a career-high 23.9 points (10th in the league) on 52.2 percent shooting and 60.2 percent true shooting, 6.3 rebounds, 12.2 assists (1st) and 1.73 steals in 36.3 minutes per game. ā€œHe was selected as NBA Player of the Week an unprecedented five times this year and was Player of the Month in both December and Marchā€ (Daily News of Los Angeles, May 14, 1987).

Believe in Magic
Lakers have passed the torch to Earvin Johnson


LOS ANGELES — One second left. Score tied. Rodney McCray lofts the ball to Ralph Sampson, who turns and twists and tosses it at the basket from the foul line. The ball glances off the heel of the rim, bounces around and slices through the net like a dagger.

A magic shot, and — poof — the Lakers were dead.

The Houston Rockets moved on to play the Boston Celtics for the NBA title last season, while the Los Angeles Lakers, the defending champions, were swept into the dusty corner of oblivion.

The Rockets, with their Twin Towers of Sampson and Akeem Olajuwon, had launched their dynasty. The Lakers were history. Kareem was too old. Magic was not bold enough.

Now, a year later, where are those mighty Rockets? Where are the Dallas Mavericks and Portland Trail Blazers, the other ā€œrisingā€ powers in the West?

And where are the Lakers? The once and future kings of the NBA are in the finals for the sixth time in the last eight years. They open a seven-game series against the Boston Celtics tonight in Los Angeles.

The Lakers bounced back with the best record (65-17) in basketball this season. They believed in Magic.

Earvin (Magic) Johnson made use of his entire bag of tricks in his eighth professional season.

ā€œYou’ve never seen the real Magic Johnson,ā€ Johnson once said.

ā€œThere’s a lot more to my game than I’ve shown, and one day I’m going to show it.ā€

This season was Magic’s Showtime. Magic passed as brilliantly as ever, but he shot, too, and rival defenses couldn’t figure out what to do.

The 6-foot-9 point guard produced his best season, an MVP season. Magic raised his scoring average to 23.9 points per game, six above his career norm, while he continued to lead the league in assists — the fourth straight year.

ā€œMagic is the most intuitive person I’ve ever known about reading the environment of the team,ā€ said Lakers coach Pat Riley. ā€œHe knew what he had to do, and the team knew it.ā€

ā€œI realized that I had to change my game this season if we were to continue to be successful,ā€ Magic said. ā€œI knew I would have to start scoring more.

ā€œIt was a big adjustment. During my first seven years with the Lakers, my main duty was handling the ball. And scoring was an afterthought.ā€

Magic averaged 38 points a game at Everett High in Lansing, Mich. He knew he could score. He scored 42 against Philadelphia when the Lakers were without Kareem in the championship-clinching sixth game in 1980.

ā€œThe great scorers in this league, like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins, have a scorer’s mentality,ā€ Magic said. ā€œThey think they can score on anybody at any time. It took me some time to develop it again.ā€

The Magic touch returned in December. With Kareem Abdul-Jabbar sidelined with an eye injury, Magic scored 34 against Dallas, 38 against Houston and a career-high 46 against Sacramento in one torrid stretch.

ā€œI didn’t bend him, I didn’t push him, I didn’t over-coach him,ā€ said Riley, who felt the Lakers needed to revise their fast-break offense to remain successful.

ā€œHe just did it. Because it had to be done. The great ones know when they have to step forward.ā€

ā€œHe always could have scored,ā€ said Michael Cooper, the Lakers’ sixth man. ā€œHe could have been playing this way from the beginning, but he didn’t need to.ā€

Magic became more than a scorer. He became L.A.’s leader as well. These are his Lakers.

Kareem passed the torch, unselfishly, realizing that at 40, he could no longer dominate the offense.

ā€œEveryone on the team accepted my new role, and that was the key,ā€ said Magic, who has added an adaptation of Abdul-Jabbar’s sky hook to his showcase. ā€œKareem gave me the nod. He told me to take over, go for it.

ā€œI never had doubts that I could do it, but there were other people to consider. Kareem, James [Worthy]. I didn’t know how they would be affected. It would have been frustrating if they hadn’t accepted my new role.

ā€œI knew I would eventually shoot more, but I thought it would be after Jabbar was gone.ā€

Magic’s shot output increased 3.9 attempts a game to 16.4, while Abdul-Jabbar’s went down 4.2 attempts to 17.5 (with a scoring drop of 5.9 points to 17.5 a game).

ā€œI had doubts, repeated doubts that this would work,ā€ Riley confessed. ā€œI was unfamiliar with the territory I was treading. The first week of training camp was as chaotic as anything I’d ever been through. I was comfortable with the old offense. I had the greatest post player of all time. But I knew we had to make a change.ā€

Magic reported to training camp in the best shape of his life, determined to inspire his teammates.

ā€œI was worried about our future,ā€ he said. ā€œIf I came in at the best shape of my career, it would set an example that we weren’t accepting anything, that we would come back.

Magic Johnson had to wait eight years to get his recognition.

ā€œIf Magic doesn’t get the MVP,ā€ Riley said before the vote was announced. ā€œIt would be tantamount to Jim Bakker not being expelled from the PTL. There is no other choice.

ā€œMagic has brought the game into a new realm of skill.ā€

The players agreed.

ā€œMagic was the best player in the league this season. There was nobody even close,ā€ said three-time MVP Larry Bird, who gave his rival and good friend a ringing endorsement all season.

ā€œHe makes everyone on the court with him better. He plays good defense, he posts up, he scores but still gets his assists. He adjusts to the game. If they’re struggling, he can take the shot. A lot of players can’t do that.ā€

ā€œThe true barometer for the superstars is that they make everybody else around them better,ā€ said Seattle coach Bernie Bickerstaff.

ā€œThe one thing that I’ve said over and over again is that there are a lot of great basketball players in this league, but there are very few who know how to win.ā€

ā€œWinning the MVP means a great deal,ā€ Magic said proudly at the presentation. ā€œI wanted to win it the right way, with the team having a great season.ā€

ā€œEvery great player has a special year during his career,ā€ said West, the Lakers’ general manager. ā€œThis has been Magic’s special year.ā€

Magic Johnson trails Larry Bird 3-1 in MVP awards, but in the big race — NBA championships — the superstars who define each other are tied 3-3.

And championships are what matter the most.

ā€œWinning is the most important thing. The championship is more important than this award,ā€ Magic said. ā€œThat’s what you remember and what the fans remember. If it comes down to me having to trade this trophy in for the championship ring. Hey, it will be traded tomorrow. Diamond rings. That’s what I live for. That’s why I play. I’m all about winning.ā€

The Lakers are poised to win another championship, with Magic leading the way.


The Lakers defeated the Celtics in six games in the Finals, Magic unanimously winning Finals MVP honors, averaging a series-high 26.2 points on 54.1 percent shooting from the floor, 96.0 percent shooting from the line and 59.0 percent true shooting, a team-high 8.0 rebounds, and series highs of 13.0 assists and 2.33 steals with only 2.17 turnovers in 39.3 minutes per game. ā€œ ā€˜This was the sweetest of them all,’ Johnson said. ā€˜This is the best team I ever played on. This championship means the most to me’ ā€ (Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Jun. 15, 1987).

Johnson hailed as best

INGLEWOOD, Calif. — If you don’t think that Magic Johnson is the best player in, on or around the game of basketball, you haven’t been watching the same player for eight years that Larry Bird has.

ā€œMagic,ā€ said Bird, ā€œis just a great basket ball player. He’s the best I’ve ever seen. Unbelievable. Other than that, I don’t know what to say.ā€

No problem, Larry. Johnson’s play during this, his season of seasons, said it all. Not only was he the National Basketball Association’s most valuable player, as voted by the media, and its Sporting News player of the year, as voted by the players, he was the only unanimous choice on the NBA’s all-league team. Bird wasn’t. Neither was Michael. Or Akeem Olajuwon.

Only Magic.


Much like it was the entire NBA season, regular and playoffs. Just Magic.

When it was all said and done Sunday afternoon, Johnson, as usual, had said the most and done the best. And when it came time to name an MVP for the series, won by the Los Angeles Lakers, four games to two, Johnson again was the unanimous choice.

Of course he was. He not only averaged 26.2 points, 13 assists and eight rebounds a game in the series, he made the biggest shot of the NBA season.

Officially, the Lakers beat the Boston Celtics Sunday afternoon. Unofficially, the Celtics were finished when Johnson’s sky hook with two seconds left dropped through the basket a week ago in Game 4, and Bird’s jumper from the corner at the buzzer didn’t.

ā€œThat,ā€ Celtics Coach K.C. Jones said Sunday, ā€œis the shot that beat us.ā€

ā€œI really thought we needed to win all three games of the series at home to have a chance, and we almost did,ā€ said Bird. ā€œThat shot he made just took it out of us. We know coming back out here it would be awful tough.ā€

Just as it will be tough for the rest of the NBA to beat the Lakers next season. This season’s Lakers were different from any previous Laker teams. When it came time for ā€œShowtime,ā€ the spotlight was on, not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, as it had been for the previous decade, but Johnson.

He shot more this season, and scored more. He was given a heavier burden, and carried it all the way through the finals.

And even though he will be trying to buck history — the NBA hasn’t had a repeat champion since the ’69 Celtics — there is no reason to think Johnson cannot do it again next season.

The Lakers of 1985-86 were 62-20 during the regular season before being beaten by Houston in the conference final. The change in their philosophy, the passing of the torch from Abdul-Jabbar to Johnson, made them a 65-17 NBA championship team.

It is hard to conceive, with Johnson in his prime, and with James Worthy, Cooper and Byron Scott close to theirs, and with Mychal Thompson around for an entire season, that the Lakers won’t be back in the championship series — and favored to win it — again next year.


Lakers’ win means Magic gets his due

INGLEWOOD, Calif. — They are speaking now about Magic Johnson, once basketball’s Cheshire-grinned kid, in terms of experience and legacies and dynastic greatness. They are speaking of him in the same breath as his legendary teammate, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And they already are speaking in Los Angeles about the Lakers’ doing it all again next year — a reprise on this whole NBA championship season with the Lakers’ fast break wheeling along and Magic at the helm, scoring and dealing out one assist after another.

And who will say no?

Oh, there are Houston and Atlanta and Detroit and Dallas. Maybe Portland, if center Sam Bowie ever mends and gets back in the middle. But the Lakers’ most fabled foil, the Boston Celtics, disbanded Sunday after the Lakers’ title-clinching 106-93 victory, admitting that changes will be — and must be — in the offing. Don’t be surprised if shooting guard Danny Ainge is used as trade bait.

ā€œWe have to pick up a couple of guys,ā€ said Celtics forward Larry Bird. ā€œI don’t know where we stand with Kevin (McHale, who will undergo foot surgery in the next two weeks), Bill Walton (foot injury) and (injured backup forward) Scott Wedman next year.ā€

The Lakers, for a change, want to stick with more of the same. After they won their fourth title of the 1980s — and the fourth in Magic’s eight-year career — Abdul Jabbar, 40, immediately said he’s committed to playing one more season, maybe two. Backup center Mychal Thompson – ā€œwho did for the Lakers what Bill Walton did for us last season,ā€ Bird said — could add a few years to Abdul-Jabbar’s career. Guard Michael Cooper talked of winning the sixth man award.

And Magic? He picked up his third championship series most valuable player award Sunday — an NBA record — to go along with his first regular-season MVP award. And afterward, principals from both teams were singing the praises of the 6-foot-9 point guard who was LA’s leading scorer (26.2 points per game), rebounder (8.0) and playmaker (9.8 assists) in the final.

ā€œMagic is a great, great basketball player — the best I’ve ever seen,ā€ Bird said.

ā€œWe wouldn’t be anywhere without Magic,ā€ LA coach Pat Riley said. ā€œI was afraid that after he won the regular-season MVP award that he might have a tendency to relax. But his whole performance this year was something that spilled over into the playoffs. I happened to be blessed with him and Kareem, two of the greatest players in the league, and they’re working on ā€˜legend’ titles even as they’re playing.ā€

Lakers general manager Jerry West took the back-patting one step higher. ā€œI think Magic can get even better,ā€ West said. ā€œExperience is a wonderful teacher.ā€

And experience, Johnson said, taught him that this Lakers title was better than the rest.

ā€œEvery day when I lace up my shoes, I only thought about playing hard and winning a championship,ā€ said Johnson, the former Lansing, Everrett and Michigan State star. ā€œOf the four championships, no question, this is the greatest one because of what we did in the regular season, our record (65-17), and what we did in the playoffs.ā€


For the entire postseason, Magic averaged 21.8 points on 53.9 percent shooting and 60.7 percent true shooting, 7.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists (1st in the playoffs), 1.72 steals (9th) and 2.83 turnovers in 37.0 minutes per game, and led the postseason in win shares (3.7), offensive win shares (2.6), defensive win shares (1.1) and win shares per 48 minutes (.265), while finishing second in PER (26.2). Magic showed he could have been doing this earlier had the situation required it, but the situation didn’t require it. ā€œ ā€˜Give a lot of credit for our success to Magic,’ Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said after Sunday’s 106-93 victory gave the Lakers their fourth title since Johnson’s arrival. ā€˜He accepted his role this year as team leader and played with enough intensity to inspire the other four guys on the floor’ ā€ (Kentucky New Era, Jun. 15, 1987).
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#30 » by Purch » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:46 pm

If people are going to argue for Kg or Robinson based on primarily the regular season, than I don't see what argument they have over 82 Malone. Here's a great post from Shaqattack about how dominant Malone was that season.


ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."



Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

Originally Posted by Lenny Wilkens
"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."



Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."




After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#31 » by Purch » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:02 pm

Here's another post detailing that season

dankok8 wrote:I always knew it was a great season but upon further analysis I think it's on a very short list of the greatest ever. Only Wilt and Kareem in their peak years ever dominated throughout the regular season so thoroughly. Funny thing is Moses started the year a bit slow but the second half of the season he was as dominant as any player ever. He just steamrolled the best centers in the league. For the entire season he averaged 31.1 ppg and 14.7 rpg on 51.9% shooting. He was second in the league in scoring and led in rebounding, PER, and Win Shares.

Month-by-Month:

October (2 games): 39.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg

November (15 games): 25.3 ppg, 13.7 rpg

December (12 games): 28.5 ppg, 15.4 rpg

January (13 games): 28.7 ppg, 13.8 rpg

February (14 games): 38.1 ppg, 17.3 rpg on 55% shooting

March (16 games): 35.0 ppg, 14.1 rpg

April (9 games): 28.1 ppg, 15.6 rpg



During the all-star game on January 31st, Moses had 12 points and 11 rebounds in just 20 minutes played but West coach Pat Riley decided to bench Moses in the 4th quarter in favor of Kareem. The West lost the game and Moses was pissed and this event is rumored to have motivated his tear on the league. For 33 straight games from February 2nd to April 6th, Moses averaged 36.0 ppg and 15.8 rpg.

His game against Sikma and the Supersonics on February 11th is one of the all-time legendary performances. Moses outrebounded the entire Seattle team 32-21, grabbed an NBA record 21 offensive rebounds, and outrebounded center Jack Sikma by a 32-3 margin (and also outscored him 38-16). Sikma was in his prime that season averaging 19.6/12.7 and one of the best defenders and rebounders in the league.


Here are his performances against the best centers in the league.


vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (5 games)

Moses: 34.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg

Kareem: 21.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 3.2 apg on 51.8% shooting

Kareem left one game in the 1st half with an ankle injury but Moses still killed an aging Kareem. Moses had games of 36/10, 37/22, 23/9, 39/17, and 37/21 against the Lakers.

81-82 Season

10/30/1981

Kareem: 33/10/2 (11/25, 11/16)
Moses: 36/10 (18/?, 0/2)

Rockets win 113-112 in double OT. Moses scores a game-winning lay-up with one second remaining.

11/11/1981

Kareem: 21/9/3 (9/21, 3/3)
Moses: 37/22 (15/?, 7/9)

Lakers win 95-93. Kareem had 4 points in the last minute to fuel the Lakers comeback.

11/29/1981

Kareem: 23/3/4 (10/14, 3/5)
Moses: 23/9 (9/?, 5/6)

Lakers win 122-104. Magic had 12/11/11 for LA and Hayes had a 30/12 game for Houston.

3/21/1982

Kareem: 12/6/4 (6/9, 0/1)
Moses: 39/17 (12/?, 15/18)

Lakers win 107-102. Kareem left the first half with an ankle injury and did not return. Moses had 25 points in that half and just 14 in the second. Magic took over late.

4/6/1982

Kareem: 20/3/3 (7/14, 6/8)
Moses: 37/21 (9/?, 19/21)

Lakers win 108-97.

Cumulative Stats

Kareem: 21.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 3.2 apg on 51.8 %FG/69.7 %FT/55.9 %TS
Moses: 34.4 ppg, 15.8 rpg on 82.1 %FT

Moses just dominated Kareem this year in 3 out of the 5 games. He’s the clear winner here.



vs. Robert Parish (2 games)

Moses: 37.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg

Parish: 11.0 ppg

Moses had games of 37/11 and 38/12 against the Celtics.


vs. Jack Sikma (5 games)

Moses: 31.4 ppg, 16.0 rpg

Sikma: 17.8 rpg

Moses had games of 21/11, 28/15, 24/9, 38/32, and 46/13 against the Sonics.


vs. Mychal Thompson (5 games)

Moses: 36.2 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 1.4 apg on 60.8% shooting

Thompson: 21.4 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.4 apg on 59.3% shooting

Moses had games of 28/10, 34/8, 29/20, 49/12, and 41/18 against the Blazers.


vs. Artis Gilmore (2 games)

Moses: 29.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg

Gilmore: 21.5 ppg

Moses had games of 31/16 and 27/? against the Bulls.



Overall in 19 games against the five best centers in the league above, Moses averaged a monstrous 33.8 ppg and 14.8 rpg. He went 17-1-1 in scoring and we don't have rebounds for all games but of course he dominated them pretty badly on the glass.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#32 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:35 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:
SKF_85 wrote:1st ballot: 65 Bill Russell

Russell had unparalleled defensive impact while anchoring historically dominant defenses. Since Russell's defensive impact was so huge, I don't think it makes sense to rank his peak much lower than top 5 unless he was a major negative/liability on offense. Although Russell's offensive skill-set was limited, I think he was far from a major liability on offense due to his underrated passing and ball handling. His passing and ball handling were more than good enough for Russell to be a valuable secondary passer when needed and initiate fast breaks. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that Russell was a plus on offense, however, I highly doubt he was worse than a slight minus, which wouldn't take much away from his GOAT level defensive impact. Ā Ā 

2nd ballot: 93 Hakeem Olajuwon

I could also go with 94, but I think 93 was Hakeem's top regular season with his best combination of offense and defense. Also had one of his most impressive playoffs, especially on defense.

3rd ballot: 04 Kevin Garnett

Although it looks like Duncan will get voted in at least a couple spots ahead of Garnett, I have to give at least a slight edge to peak Garnett. I prefer his more diverse/versatile and extremely portable skill-set and think he had higher overall impact than Duncan due to his GOAT level PnR defense, all-time great passing/playmaking for a big and ability to warp defenses with his shooting range. Garnett led the 04 Wolves to the 2nd best SRS and a top 5 offense (+3 relative ORtg) and top 6 defense (-3.2 relative DRtg), which is more impressive than it sounds since his supporting cast wasn't anything special on offense (Cassell was the exception) and full of subpar defenders.


I never saw Russell playing but how do you feel about Hakeem's defensive impact against Russell's?

Because if you're considering Russell a slight minus on offense (I don't know, I don't have an opinion on that) I feel like Hakeem absolutely crushes him in that regard. And it's hard for me to imagine a defensive impact that is much better than Hakeem's. He's clearly the player with the most impact I ever saw on defense.


A quote from Dipper

Dipper 13 wrote:
Dream was very comparable to Russell in many areas, though Russell also cleaned the defensive boards like Garnett or Rodman. He was so quick at recovering from above the FT line to block a shot, much like this below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=39m42s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also his hands were even quicker than his feet on defense. Hakeem is proof (to all the "weak era" detractors) that Russell would dominate in the modern era.


Technically, his rebound rate, while steller, was nothing out of this world, but It was still markedly better than Hakeem's
Russell was definately a much better shot blocker (probably the greatest of all time in that regard, Thurmond might have been mad at Wilt but he ranked Russell and himself ahead of Wilt in that regard)
I would assume that He was more of a "leader" on defense. And when I say leader, I mean Tim Duncan Esque leadership, maybe even surpassing it.

Russell was probably quicker, as crazy as it may seem, on defense, or at least was better at "anticipating" things (defensive bball iq is unparallelled).

His teams went from a resounding first in every year he had been in the league on defense, excluding 1 year, to barely above league average when he retired.

His one on one defense had always been very good, but considering his weight, im not sure how he would do today. (240 pounds, a davis like frame to be honest)
he said he could touch the top of the backboard. Personally, I think Russell is a great guy, so I would take his word for his own achievements

(basically, in terms of scaling for the modern era, his team was around +7-8 in Russells last year with the Celtics.
With only him and 1 other perimeter player I think leaving, this rating went to around +0.1, and this was a 34 year old russell with around 1000 games of mileage on his body)
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#33 » by bastillon » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:06 pm

drza wrote:There's some great stuff in here, from a lot of different angles, that I'd like to address.

1) When I said
drza wrote:while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was.
, I wasn't just looking at his ability to score from the post. Rather, I meant that, because Duncan is also a better and more willing passer than Olajuwon, an offense built around using Duncan in the post has similar expectations to a similar offense built around Dream. And at this point in the discussion, I'd still stand by that. Also, in that originally quoted post, I said that neither Dream nor Duncan are ideal offensive anchors because offenses that run through the post, with their skillsets, wouldn't scale up to elite with better supporting talent. Thus, as far as offensive anchors go, I'd rather an offense built around either one of the outlier offensive bigs (like Shaq or maybe Kareem) or else bigs that could operate from further out (like Dirk or KG) as opposed to building one around Dream or Duncan.

3) Also, I would argue that Garnett (and arguably Sheed Wallace) might very well be more difficult 1-on-1 defenders than anything that Olajuwon faced. Dream relied on his incredible footwork, speed, and feints to free himself up for scoring opportunities. He was quicker than Ewing and Shaq, of those you listed, and thus had advantages in this area. He and Robinson had similar athletic abilities (and in the majority of their match-ups Robinson played him very well), but in those playoffs my memory had Robinson falling for an inordinate number of Dream's feints and up-fakes. Garnett and Sheed are both 7-footers with great length, but both also tended to play better position defense against the kinds of moves that Dream offered. I don't know that we could project Dream's scoring figures to look like Duncans, but I don't think he'd have exploded against them the way that he did in that '94/'95 run. He'd have had to be more physical, use his strength more, which he could do but I think his effectiveness would have been lowered.


You know I love your posts drza. That being said & and with all due respect, this is wrong on so many levels.

It is not enough for you to just state that Duncan can anchor offenses to a similar degree that Dream. You should support that with any sort of data. The data however is against you in this case, my friend.

High quality defensive bigs. Remember: we are talking about anchoring playoff offenses against high quality defensive opposition. This seems reasonable given that you have beat such teams to win a title. It is actually what matters the most in this respect.

Time period. I will use only examples when Duncan truly anchored Spurs offense. I don't think you can argue that Duncan was solo-anchoring the Spurs post 05. At that point Spurs offense was much more dependent on Parker/Manu than Duncan's post offense. In 2005 it was to a lesser degree because Parker/Manu were still growing in the RS. But by the time the playoffs came around, Parker/Manu were forces to be reckoned with. Particularly Manu was driving force of Spurs offense in 05 finals. So the time period I will use is 99-04, where Duncan was a clear centerpiece of Spurs offense.

So let's look at the data:
99
- overall Spurs offense was above average in the postseason (+1.8). What about vs.Sheed & KG?
-107 ORtg vs Blazers. Seems fine, except it wasn't because of Duncan (who only posted 16.8 ppg/2.5 ast and took 12 FGA, so he wasn't exactly the centerpiece of the offense in the series).
-102.6 ORtg vs. Wolves with Duncan underperforming (18.8 ppg/51% TS)

00
-Duncan did not play
-Spurs offense was atrocious - 90 ORtg. It was a continuing trend from D-Rob's prime reminding us that he can't anchor playoff offenses.

01
-overall below average in the postseason (-2.3)
-101.9 ORtg vs. Wolves, Duncan playing better than 2 years later but still nowhere near Hakeem (22 ppg, 51% TS, 104 ORtg)
-90.4 ORtg vs Lakers, which is atrocious. Duncan posted 23/4 ast but underwhelming efficiency (54% TS, however only 99 ORtg due to 4.5 turnovers per game)

02
-Spurs offense overall was way above average (+2.9) due to feasting on poor Sonics in the 1st round with 114 ORtg (who were, obviously, a terrible post defense back in those days; Vin Baker won't get it done).
-once again Spurs were very poor offensively vs. Lakers, only 99.8.
-Duncan was kinda overwhelmed offensively and ran out of gas at the end of games. This is the series where Duncan's leadership and clutch play was heavily questioned as Spurs got dominated in the 4th quarters by Bryant, while Duncan was a complete no show down the stretch of games. Duncan did post 29/4.6 apg/52% TS/103 ORtg. But he wasn't playing against Horace Grant this time around, but vs. Robert Horry and scrubs. You can see the difference. Once you put poor defenders vs. Duncan he will feast on them; but remains underwhelming vs. top competition (not that near retirement Horace Grant was top competition anyway...)

03
-overall mediocre offense in the postseason (-1.4). They won that title solely due to their defense (incredible -7.8).
-Duncan exploded against the Lakers vs. Horry/Medvedenko: 28 ppg/57.5% TS/120 ORtg, and finally Spurs offense worked - 110 ORtg
-Duncan was still great vs. Nets, 24 ppg/5 assists/109 ORtg/almost 4 TOV; but Spurs offense only 100 ORtg
-once again the same trends: Duncan explodes vs weak post defenses; Spurs mediocre offensively vs top defenses

04:
-overall way above average (+3.8), once again because of feasting on poor defense in the 1st round (114 ORtg vs Grizzlies)
-once again very poor offensive performance vs. Lakers (96 ORtg)
-Duncan shutdown the last 4 games by Karl Malone

So what can wee see from this year-by-year breakdown?
Duncan cannot anchor succesful offense against good post defense. That didn't happen vs. Wolves (around 102 ORtg), or Grant/Malone Lakers (90, 96 ORtg, respectively). That didn't happen either in 03. Contrary to views of many posters on this site, Spurs were by no means carried super hard offensively. They were just mediocre offense. They solely due to their superstar defensive lineup and coaching (D-Rob, Bowen, Manu, S-Jax, Popovich; not to mention Duncan himself).

Duncan has never showcased that he can carry offense against effective post defense and yield good results.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at 94 Rockets:
-117 ORtg vs Buck Williams/Clifford Robinson
-110 ORtg vs Spencer (basically Kendrick Perkins on steroids)/Karl Malone
-100 ORtg vs NY Knicks (Ewing/Mason/Oakley, Riley coaching imo the best post defense ever)

Now look at 95 Rockets.
-120 ORtg vs Karl Malone
-110 ORtg vs David Robinson/Rodman
-117 ORtg vs Shaq/Grant

What Hakeem was doing as an offensive anchor in those two years has never been matched by Duncan. Yeah, Duncan was able to anchor good offenses when he faced poor post defenses (Vin Baker Sonics, Gasol's Grizzlies, Horry/Samaki Walker/Medvedenko Lakers), but then crumbled against top competition.

We know Hakeem would never crumble against 01 Horace Grant, because we have seen him destroy Horace Grant at his peak. We know Hakeem would never get shutdown by 04 Karl Malone cuz he was rolling over Karl Malone 10 years later when he was at his peak. We know this because he faced those guys when they were much better, and they were looking hopeless. And it's not even their fault, Olajuwon was unstoppable at his peak.

As a side note. The idea that 99/01 KG and 99/05 Sheed were better post defenders than Ewing/Robinson at the height of their powers is pretty ridiculous. KG/Sheed are excellent post defenders but they would get torched against Hakeem. We have seen Dream dismantle every single all-time great. The same goes for Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning. None of those guys were able to stop Hakeem from scoring.

And for sure, no coach would be dumb enough to leave Hakeem in single coverage, that was unthinkable in the 90s, which was attested by Pat Riley and Phil Jackson who have said that Hakeem faced the most defensive attention of any player. For instance Celtics defensive gameplan for 86 finals was to triple team Hakeem. They were saying it out loud before the finals even started (casters mention this during the finals). Lakers in 90-91 just gangbanged Hakeem and forced him to shoot over 3 guys or pass to his shooters who had no range. Sonics in 93 and 96-97 were so afraid of Olajuwon that they just sent their entire team on his side of the court to trap him every single time he would take a freakin dribble. Sometimes I've seen Hakeem go out to the 3 pt line be able to make a play because that's how defenses were focusing on stopping him. People talk about Jordan rules, but that was at least replicated in modern times vs. guys like Bryant and LeBron. Olajuwon rules - that was a different story. Nobody has ever treated a big man like this. Even though Shaq received even more attention close to the basket, he did not have teams come up with strategies to crowd his entire side of the court just so he wouldn't catch the ball within 15 feet of the basket. Shaq usually received attention after the catch, Hakeem was not allowed to even catch the ball close to the basket.

Needless to say, Duncan has NEVER faced this kind of attention. Usually when facing top post defenders. They were guarding him straight up. Washed up Horace Grant and washed up Karl Malone can attest to that. If that had been happening 10 years before against Olajuwon, they would be crying for help the second Dream caught the ball, and possibly after beforehand.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#34 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:06 pm

Purch wrote:If people are going to argue for Kg or Robinson based on primarily the regular season, than I don't see what argument they have over 82 Malone. Here's a great post from Shaqattack about how dominant Malone was that season.


ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."



Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

Originally Posted by Lenny Wilkens
"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."



Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."




After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.

I ended up getting higher on Moses than ever before after the top 100 project (along with my opinion of Dirk going up Moses did too as I saw him as incredibly similar impact wise) but wasn't his defense way better in 83 than 82. I love Moses but I'm thinking it's too early for him (I'd say I'll give him the vote over D.Rob and Karl but there's guys like Ewing, McGrady, Wade, and KG I think deserve to get in first).

Also you mentioned his postseason performance but I wouldn't say he was bad (other than the fact he was swept). Yeah he shot 43% from the field and had a 49 TS% but 9+ OREB per game and a 3.3/2.0 assist to turnover ratio meant he was still a pretty big plus on that end. Seriously I had a new respect for Moses' peak watching those old PS games where he shot horribly, didn't pass well, and still dominated. The most forgotten player that was once the best in the game.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#35 » by thizznation » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:26 pm

Bill Russell is going to be probably the hardest player to pin down in this project. While it might seem that he was one of the most dominant players of all time, when doing dreaded "time-machine" comparisons it never turns out well for Bill.

If we are rating how he played among his peers then I believe we have to rank him high. The conundrum that we are faced with is "did the Celtics make Bill Russell or did Bill Russell make the Celtics?" Or is it neither and both were required for the fruitatin of the greatest dynasty in NBA History?
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#36 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:39 pm

Spoiler:
Purch wrote:If people are going to argue for Kg or Robinson based on primarily the regular season, than I don't see what argument they have over 82 Malone. Here's a great post from Shaqattack about how dominant Malone was that season.


ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."



Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

Originally Posted by Lenny Wilkens
"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."



Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."




After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.


This is only true if you base your opinions only on the box score. KG and Robinson equal (actually in Robinson's case well exceed) Mailman's offensive production while being the two greatest defensive players of the modern era.

They are two different classes of player. Malone does not deserve mention yet.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#37 » by thizznation » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:45 pm

Quotatious wrote:I have the utmost respect for the great Bill Russell. On and off the court, his contributions to the game of basketball are absolutely enormous. I even had the famous picture of Russell with that pensive look on his face, and all those championship rings on his fingers, as my avatar. If my all-time list was based solely on how much each player dominated his own era, Russell and Jordan would be virtually equal as #1 GOAT. His game was an absolutely perfect fit for the era he played in. He just suffers when I compare him to modern superstar two-way bigs like peak Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, because his relatively poor offense would prevent him from having the same kind of impact in today's game. His supreme intellectual approach to the game wouldn't make as big of as difference today, with the vastly superior scouting and coaching that we have today, and even though he would still be the best rebounder and probably also defender, in the league today (basically a rich man's Ben Wallace), his defensive impact definitely wouldn't translate 100% to today's game, because of the emphasis on stretching the floor and running much more perimeter-oriented offenses, than it was the case in the 50s and 60s, when teams were just clogging the lane, shooting was much less accurate, especially from long range, and teams had no extra incentive to take 20+ feet shots, because the 3-point line didn't exist. Russell would just naturally have less opportunities to affect the game on defense, because players today are not going to the rim like 75-80% of the time, like it seemed to be the case in the 60s. He would still be able to bother perimeter players and shooters in half-court, because of his GOAT level mobility for a center, his cat-like quickness, agility and great leaping ability, plus he would still have absolutely elite timing and anticipation, even by today's standards. I can imagine about 90-95% of his defensive impact translating to today's game, which would still make him a perennial DPOY (or at least a perennial DPOY candidate, and a 3 or 4 time winner), which just shows how incredible his defense was, if 90% of Russell is still a DPOY today, but the thing is, that 5-10% which separated him from the best modern defensive anchors like Olajuwon, Robinson, Mutombo, Wallace etc., (I mean it separates him if we compare those guys to Russell in terms of era-relative impact), would be gone.


I want to say this is fantastic and spot on. I like how you realistically addressed the fact that Russell was able to have more of an impact on defense due to rule and stylistic differences. Having the most efficient shot at the rim and not having the alternative for 3 point shooting is huge. Even so his skills like you mentioned would actually translate great to modern era and he would be perennial DPOY candidate or winner. Elite athlete very long and quick, he would be able to switch onto almost everyone in the court and would have a huge range when contesting shots. This with his best of the best bbiq and positioning and we may very well still see the best defensive player ever.(although still not quite as dominant as he was in his era).

This type of defense plus his elite rebounding with his character and leadership role he plays on the team and we can even forget about offense completely and his peak is going to be up there. I plan on fitting him in very soon.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#38 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:49 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Spoiler:
Purch wrote:If people are going to argue for Kg or Robinson based on primarily the regular season, than I don't see what argument they have over 82 Malone. Here's a great post from Shaqattack about how dominant Malone was that season.


ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.




Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.




Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.





After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.


This is only true if you base your opinions only on the box score. KG and Robinson equal (actually in Robinson's case well exceed) Mailman's offensive production while being the two greatest defensive players of the modern era.

They are two different classes of player. Malone does not deserve mention yet.


I agree that Admiral had better peak (mainly because of his defense) but Moses was better offensive player than both. Who cares that he had TOV problems? His offensive rebounding gave him huge offensive impact, also he was better scorer (especialy than KG) and drawed more fouls (well, David also draws many fouls, KG didn't).
I would rank them:
1995 Robinson
1983 Moses
2004 KG
I'm not as high on KG as most posters here (probably because I'm not high on advanced numbers, more on eye-test). KG was amazing defender (clearly better than MM) but his offense was worse than either David or Moses (especially Moses).
These 3 players aren't "different classes of players". That's not true, they are close.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#39 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:50 pm

70sFan wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Spoiler:
Purch wrote:If people are going to argue for Kg or Robinson based on primarily the regular season, than I don't see what argument they have over 82 Malone. Here's a great post from Shaqattack about how dominant Malone was that season.




This is only true if you base your opinions only on the box score. KG and Robinson equal (actually in Robinson's case well exceed) Mailman's offensive production while being the two greatest defensive players of the modern era.

They are two different classes of player. Malone does not deserve mention yet.


I agree that Admiral had better peak (mainly because of his defense) but Moses was better offensive player than both. Who cares that he had TOV problems? His offensive rebounding gave him huge offensive impact, also he was better scorer (especialy than KG) and drawed more fouls (well, David also draws many fouls, KG didn't).
I would rank them:
1995 Robinson
1983 Moses
2004 KG
I'm not as high on KG as most posters here (probably because I'm not high on advanced numbers, more on eye-test). KG was amazing defender (clearly better than MM) but his offense was worse than either David or Moses (especially Moses).
These 3 players aren't "different classes of players". That's not true, they are close.


Oh crap. Thought he was referring to Karl.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#40 » by Quotatious » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:52 pm

thizznation wrote:Bill Russell is going to be probably the hardest player to pin down in this project. While it might seem that he was one of the most dominant players of all time, when doing dreaded "time-machine" comparisons it never turns out well for Bill.

Yeah, it's hard to pin him down. Not that much easier than ranking George Mikan, to me (because at least Mikan was a more traditional star, high volume scorer, although obviously he played in the pre shot clock era which makes it hard to compare him to the shot clock era players). I'm fairly satisfied with the position where I ranked Russell, though. He was hugely impactful in his own era (which should be the predominant factor, in my opinion), and he consistently delieved in the playoffs, even more so than he did in the regular season.

thizznation wrote:If we are rating how he played among his peers then I believe we have to rank him high. The conundrum that we are faced with is "did the Celtics make Bill Russell or did Bill Russell make the Celtics?" Or is it neither and both were required for the fruitatin of the greatest dynasty in NBA History?

I'm pretty sure that Russell made the Celtics. They weren't particularly successful before he joined that team, with Cousy, Sharman and Macauley leading them. As soon as Russell joined in '57, he turned them into the best defensive team in the league (they were ranked 6th of 8 teams on defense in '56, one of the worst in the league). Then, when Sharman and Cousy retired, in '61 and '63, respectively, the Celtics didn't miss a beat, they were still winning titles every year (and it's not like Sharman and Cousy were irrelevant for their last few seasons - no, both were making All-Star appearances almost to the end of their careers, and averaged 25+ mpg (Cousy even averaged 30.2 in the '63 playoffs, just before his retirement).

There's that famous anecdote about a journalist implying that the Celtics won't win championships anymore after Cousy retired, and during that interview, Russell told him: "check who was the MVP of the league for the last three seasons - it was not Cousy, we'll be fine without him" or something like that. :)

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