Peaks Project #14

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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#41 » by PaulieWal » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:56 am

bastillon wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:snip....


Yeah, he "anchored" the GOAT defense with plus defenders at almost every position. That's some great anchoring right there.



Are you questioning that KG anchored Celtics defense in 2008? You realize that they completely collapsed defensively after KG went down with an injury in 2009, right? That Celtics were below average defense without KG, and all-time great with him?


No, I am questioning the hypocrisy of giving KG all the credit for the 08 Celtics when he finally had good defenders around him but Wade's good ORTG in 2011 doesn't count because LeBron :lol:.

This is getting a bit hilarious.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#42 » by eminence » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:04 am

PaulieWal wrote:
bastillon wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Yeah, he "anchored" the GOAT defense with plus defenders at almost every position. That's some great anchoring right there.



Are you questioning that KG anchored Celtics defense in 2008? You realize that they completely collapsed defensively after KG went down with an injury in 2009, right? That Celtics were below average defense without KG, and all-time great with him?


No, I am questioning the hypocrisy of giving KG all the credit for the 08 Celtics when he finally had good defenders around him but Wade's good ORTG in 2011 doesn't count because LeBron :lol:.

This is getting a bit hilarious.



Doesn't seem like a very comparable situation... Not going so far as to give KG all the credit for the Boston defense, but he was clearly the most important part(unlike Wade's 1a/1b with Lebron) and had nowhere close to the defensive help that Wade had on offense in the form of Lebron/Bosh.

To me at least it seems pretty easy to believe that KG deserves a larger portion of the credit for the Boston defense than Wade does for the Miami offense.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#43 » by bastillon » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:06 am

mischievous wrote:
bastillon wrote:
Wade lacks portability. He has issues meshing well with other ball dominant players.


Now wait, isn't this at least somewhat of an issue with all ball dominant players? How would Nash or CP3 fit with someone like Lebron? How would Kobe mesh with a Nash or a Lebron? The examples go on and on.

This seems false anyhow since the Heat made 4 straight finals and won 2 rings with Wade supposedly "not meshing" with Lebron James.


Wade was horrible during that stretch so I wouldn't exactly praise him. You can make a good argument for Wade at this point, but 2012-2013 is definitely not the direction you wanna go.

You do have a good point about Nash/LeBron, Kobe/LeBron though. Still, I think they'd have meshed better. Wade also failed to anchor great offense with Shaq on his team and I definitely think Nash/Kobe would've done better under those circumstances.

To Wade supporters:
Isn't his lackluster performance in 2009 playoffs an issue? His raw stats over the course of the series were ok but he was very inconsistent. I remember him bombing away 3s all series long, istead of attacking the basket. Particularly I have an issue with his performance in game 7 vs. Hawks. Wade put up 31 pts on 53% TS (10-25 FGA, 2-9 3s) with 4 assists and 4 turnovers, looks ok on paper but the stats piled up when Hawks were already winning in a landslide. Wade was outplayed by Joe Johnson in that game. I would've expected more from a guy who is supposed to be voted in this early.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#44 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:08 am

PaulieWal wrote:
No, the line of argument is actually very simple.

Nothing in life of the NBA is "equal".

That point had nothing to do with Wade or Dirk.

Ideally you want a good defense and good offense. Wade has shown he can be a part of good enough offenses to make deep playoff runs. Easy enough to understand or it should be...

You argument does not follow logically.

If one player "can be a part of offenses that are good enough to make deep playoff runs" and the other player has been a part of offenses that were always substantially better than the first player, whose team is more likely to win the title?

If your answer is anything other than "the player who led better offenses" then we're done here for obvious reasons.

"But defense!" You say. "Teams need to be good at both!" I agree. And here I'd say: do you have any evidence that the player who led worse offenses was having a bigger effect on his team's defense than the player who led better offenses? Or do you have any evidence the player who led better offenses is hurting his defense and leading to worse team performance on that end?

If you answered no to both of those questions, then the player who led better offenses is still more likely to lead you to a title all else being equal.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#45 » by PaulieWal » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:09 am

eminence wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
bastillon wrote:
Are you questioning that KG anchored Celtics defense in 2008? You realize that they completely collapsed defensively after KG went down with an injury in 2009, right? That Celtics were below average defense without KG, and all-time great with him?


No, I am questioning the hypocrisy of giving KG all the credit for the 08 Celtics when he finally had good defenders around him but Wade's good ORTG in 2011 doesn't count because LeBron :lol:.

This is getting a bit hilarious.



Doesn't seem like a very comparable situation... Not going so far as to give KG all the credit for the Boston defense, but he was clearly the most important part(unlike Wade's 1a/1b with Lebron) and had nowhere close to the defensive help that Wade had on offense in the form of Lebron/Bosh.

To me at least it seems pretty easy to believe that KG deserves a larger portion of the credit for the Boston defense than Wade does for the Miami offense.


My point has nothing to do with giving Wade credit. It's mainly to talk about how as soon Wade has a decent enough team around him he was putting up good ORTGs. It's about talking about ORTG, not credit. The larger point was KG struggled to make his Sota teams anything better than average defensively because of the crap around him and that's what happened with Wade as well.

It's just the hypocrisy that's a bit odd IMO.

Anyway, I have said all that I had to say on Wade, best not to derail this here and make it a Wade thread only. I will leave the Wade discussion alone so others can chime in with their ballots.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#46 » by theonlyclutch » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:10 am

PaulieWal wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Yeah, he "anchored" the GOAT defense with plus defenders at almost every position. That's some great anchoring right there.

And obviously you want your offense to be as good as possible but again a top 3-4 ORTG and a top ranked defense is far more important than a GOAT level offense with a mediocre defense. The reality in life is that all things are never equal so you can't really play that card.

And again, you are conflating his injury issues with diminishing play/impact on the court. He did pretty well in raw/advanced stats in 2011, 2013 RS and 2012 to an extent. You have shown this tendency before as well when you were talking about the Spurs having their way with a crippled Wade in the 13 Finals. That doesn't mean he's not portable, my man.


And when was Wade anchoring top 3-4 ranked ORTGs pre-Lebron? The closest he got was in '05, but that was very clearly concurrently with MVP-candidate Shaq on the team...

Anyways, given that Wade from '12 onwards was playing very differently from how he was playing pre-LBJ, I don't see much particular relevance in citing the portability of Wade's game at that time as a reference to his portability playing in an entirely different way in '09...


Why not? In 09 he had to do everything on his own, he can't really show "portability".

He actually showed whenever healthy post-2011 that he could be extremely portable, move off the ball completely to let LeBron or another ball handler take over and still be pretty damn effective whenever those knees weren't creaking.



You're missing my point, Wade post-11 was clearly focusing on different skillsets than Wade in 09, he shot much less 3s, was focusing far more on scoring + passing from the post, instead of the PnR play that he was using as lead ball-handler in '09, therefore, unless it can be demonstrated that Wade was always able to operate in the way he did post '11, the portability of Wade's game in '09 doesn't have much to do with his portability post '11...

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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#47 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:14 am

PaulieWal wrote:You have made some great posts but I am also having a hard time looking past your obvious agenda.

.

Dude what??? What agenda has bastillion shown? That he doesn't think as highly of Wade as you do?
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#48 » by PaulieWal » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:18 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:You have made some great posts but I am also having a hard time looking past your obvious agenda.

.

Dude what??? What agenda has bastillion shown? That he doesn't think as highly of Wade as you do?


Nothing to do with Wade.

His anti-Duncan agenda has been clear as day.

Edit: Oh and him saying that he judges players on how they do against tougher defenses in playoffs but then completely ignoring the fact that prime Wade has always been a strong playoff performer against good defenses is funny.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#49 » by bastillon » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:20 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:You have made some great posts but I am also having a hard time looking past your obvious agenda.

.

Dude what??? What agenda has bastillion shown? That he doesn't think as highly of Wade as you do?


Yeah that was weird. I am known to be anti-Wilt/anti-LeBron/pro-Hakeem... but Wade always just another dude for me.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#50 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:21 am

1st ballot: Oscar Robertson '64
Put simply he's the greatest offensive player of his generation, imo.
I've watched fair bit of game tape of him, and I've never been really blown away by any single plays; he's not flashy, and doesn't tend to amaze on a play-by-play basis the same way that some other greats do. Yet you get to the end of the game and he's got like 29/9/11 or some such.
Big big body for a PG (he'd be strong even for a modern SG), could just back guys down to where he wanted to be. Then had that short-mid range turnaround (odd one-hander form) that was so effective (could turn over either shoulder, too); and he turned his shoulders so late that it was really hard for defenders to swipe at. The slow-mo highlight reels don't do justice to how quick the release often was. I wish we had the shooting data to say exactly, but Oscar must have been lights out in that 10-17 ft range. Good athlete who was a decent slasher, too; very very fine FT-shooter as well. All in all, he scored an awful lot of points at MUCH higher efficiency than the vast majority of his peers.

I don't consider him in the class of Magic, Nash, Paul, or Kidd (or Bird or Lebron) as a passer/playmaker, but obv he was quite adept. Kareem has little but praise for his passing. Again, nothing too flashy, but some precision entry passes and hitting cutters or passing out of a double-team; good at putting it someplace easy for teammate to catch and finish smoothly.
Led I think 4 or 5 consecutive #1 offenses, including the year I'm going with as his peak (admittedly none of them were on an all-time level, but still....).

Rebounding: pace (and minutes) inflate his prowess as a rebounding guard to near-legendary proportions. I do NOT consider him the best rebounding PG of all-time; but I do consider him 3rd-best (behind Magic and Kidd), which obv is still awfully good.

Defensively.....I always thought he looked decent (again, not jumping off the screen at me; but solid). I've read a few peer reviews praising his defense as a seriously under-appreciated aspect of his game. So it's perhaps even a pinch better than I've given him credit for.

Here's HCA-adjusted WOWY data over his career (which is awfully darn impressive):

Code: Select all

Season  G With G Without SRS With SRS Without SRS Diff
----------------------------------------------------------
1961       71       8     -2.44     -14.59     12.16
1962       83       1      1.16     -11.24     12.40
1964       89       1      3.72       0.38      3.35
1965       79       5      1.94      -1.33      3.27
1966       81       4      0.76      -5.11      5.86
1967       83       2     -0.10     -16.22     16.12
1968       65      17      1.98     -10.69     12.67
1969       79       3     -0.57      -7.42      6.85
1970       69      13     -1.28      -7.64      6.36
1971       95       1     12.80      -6.64     19.44
1972       75      18     12.07       7.07      5.10
1973       79       9      7.98       7.42      0.57
1974       86      12      7.84       7.83      0.01


2nd ballot: Kevin Durant '14
I freely acknowledge the Durant is a completely average defender overall. But: very good to elite as both a rebounder and playmaker for a SF. And then GOAT-level pure scorer: 41.8 pts/100 possessions @ 63.5% TS :o . fwiw, I'd also constructed formula founded on Moonbeam's Score+ rating (I called mine "Modified Score+").......'14 Durant is the 2nd-highest MS+ rating on record (just barely behind '88 Barkley, and just barely ahead of '83 Dantley).
He couldn't quite maintain that in the playoffs, but still......35.9 pts/100 poss @ 57.0% TS while playing 42.9 mpg; that's still very elite level scoring. And bear in mind the defense he was facing while he did that:
1st round: -2.1 rDRTG (ranked 7th of 30; being guarded primarily by Tony Allen)
2nd round: -1.9 rDRTG (9th of 30)
3rd round: -4.3 rDRTG (3rd of 30; being guarded by Kawhi Leonard)

How does the playoff scoring look now?


3rd ballot: Julius Erving '76
I've already backed him out a couple places, and I'm just not comfortable backing him out any further.
As much as we've been putting Erving's defense under the microscope and subjecting it to a lot of criticism and skepticism, I don't think the defensive impact of peak Erving is significantly below that of one of my other top candidates for this spot ('06 or '09 Wade), and is likely ABOVE that of '08 Paul (my other top candidate).
Meanwhile I think he's a marginally better pure scorer than Wade. I shudder to think what Erving might have been capable of with no hand-checking. The guy was just a monster finisher, and better mid-range shooter (at least short-mid range, like 10-18 feet) than he's getting credit for by some here. When comparing to Wade in particular, this isn't too much of a dividing line anyway; Wade's not exactly dynamite from the mid-range (especially in '06, he's actually still kinda poor from there at that stage of his career). Doctor's a marginally better FT-shooter, too.
Not quite the playmaker Wade is (even relative to positional expectations), but is a better rebounder (again: even with positional considerations).
Peak Erving scaled up in the playoffs, too.
Paul's a little more difficult to compare to (given positional/role differences). Ultimately, it's the fact that Paul's defense wasn't yet quite what it would become, and also some questions regarding lower than expected (based on box/advanced numbers) impact data, that compel me to leave Erving ahead for now.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#51 » by mischievous » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:28 am

bastillon wrote:
mischievous wrote:
bastillon wrote:
Wade lacks portability. He has issues meshing well with other ball dominant players.


Now wait, isn't this at least somewhat of an issue with all ball dominant players? How would Nash or CP3 fit with someone like Lebron? How would Kobe mesh with a Nash or a Lebron? The examples go on and on.

This seems false anyhow since the Heat made 4 straight finals and won 2 rings with Wade supposedly "not meshing" with Lebron James.


Wade was horrible during that stretch so I wouldn't exactly praise him. You can make a good argument for Wade at this point, but 2012-2013 is definitely not the direction you wanna go.

.

But what about in 2011 when Wade wasn't bad and they steamrolled the Eastern Conference? Remember, they took turns destroying Boston who at that time was still an elite team. They meshed fine and looked ready to win the title until Lebron started having dreadful performances in the finals. That's the reality of 2011. They didn't lose because Wade was failing to mesh.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#52 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:20 am

bastillon wrote:To Wade supporters:
Isn't his lackluster performance in 2009 playoffs an issue? His raw stats over the course of the series were ok but he was very inconsistent. I remember him bombing away 3s all series long, istead of attacking the basket. Particularly I have an issue with his performance in game 7 vs. Hawks. Wade put up 31 pts on 53% TS (10-25 FGA, 2-9 3s) with 4 assists and 4 turnovers, looks ok on paper but the stats piled up when Hawks were already winning in a landslide. Wade was outplayed by Joe Johnson in that game. I would've expected more from a guy who is supposed to be voted in this early.



Don't know if I qualify as a "Wade supporter", given I haven't cast a ballot for him (though depending on who gets in on this thread, I may be giving him a 3rd ballot next thread), but speaking for myself....

No, I don't find his '09 playoff performance much of an issue, mostly because I wouldn't exactly call it "lackluster". He had a PER of 26.31, which is higher than any playoff PER in the entire careers of Larry Bird or Oscar Robertson, for example. He went for 29.1/5.0/5.3 on 56.5% TS, had a 112 ORtg (+4.1 to team ORtg), 106 DRtg (-0.8 to team DRtg). That, combined with the rs he had.....
EDIT: his on/off splits in the playoffs were exceedingly close to his rs ones too, for what that's worth (sample size is an issue).

Anyway, I'm not going to hold a single sub-stellar game against him, especially considering he was playing kinda banged up, iirc.
I think we're well past the point in this project where players are not allowed to have a bad playoff game.
Besides, I'm still undecided between '09 and '06.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#53 » by ceiling raiser » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:22 am

Just a question in general about using ORtg/DRtg as standalone metrics in evaluation (maybe this isn't being done here, but just from skimming, it's something I wanted to ask about)...

How much weight should we put into those splits, especially if we're comparing values that are (relatively) close? If we're talking about one or more SDs of separation then I don't take issue with the analysis, but if team seasonal or on court values are in the same ballpark, how confident are we in comparing them?

My concerns:

• I really like the concept (as well as the term) of resiliency that Spaceman has proposed prior to and during this project. Thing is, with some exceptions, teams relying heavily on transition scoring (or I guess in theory transition D) for the most part, seem to give up some of that advantage in the postseason. If we're seeing the same thing in the regular season and playoffs, then I feel more comfortable with the ORtg/DRtg numbers. But without separate Synergy-style breakdowns by set/play type, isn't there some reason for pause?

• Sort of tied in to the first point, but this regards RAPM. Awhile back, I recall a few of us collectively speculated that some players' low turnovers might inflate DRAPM splits. After speaking with mysticbb on APBRmetrics, he identified some other player qualities that might affect splits:

Code: Select all

Inflate off split
high STLs
high DRBs

Inflate def split
low TOVs
high FG%


This might go back to the transition question above (since all four figure into transition play), but are you guys worried that offensive and defensive splits, whether for RAPM or ORtg/DRtg, might not answer the questions we're trying to address? Not only because transition play might not be as high-resiliency as half court play, but because there's some 'leakage' between offense and defense in transition.

(Apologies if I'm not making sense or this isn't applicable here :) just something I was pondering to myself while skimming the last couple of pages.)
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#54 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:17 am

RebelWithACause wrote:Anyone already down to mention Barkley?

Would you say 93 was his peak?
I'm inclined to say 89 or 90 was his peak, because he tried a lot more on D and was a almost a neutral defender back then.

Thoughts?


I'm thinking about Barkley. I'd mentioned that if either Oscar or Erving gets in this thread, that's going to open the door to a handful of players for my 3rd ballot, and that I was mostly weighing Wade and Paul. But I'm now thinking hard on Barkley and Moses Malone, too.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#55 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:31 am

Curry has gotten a surprising amount of support in prior threads, and I think he has a serious chance of winning this one (I don't see many ballots cast yet). I'll likely vote for him here, as I think he's a legitimate contender for the greatest individual offensive season we've ever seen.

1. Stephen Curry 2015
2. Dirk Nowitzki 2011


I'm as yet undecided on my third spot. I think Nowitzki is nearing the time when he should be voted in, and in fact he's probably here already. Demonstrated offensive savant in his prime, truly unstoppable scorer, and the best offensive playoff performer of his generation outside LeBron. Scoring metrics don't favor him the way they do Durant, but when you consider all the non-box score stuff Dirk does such as screening, spacing, and fouling out opposing bigs, I think you can make a really great case. And I think his playoff performances demonstrate he was more than capable of taking on higher scoring volume of he decided that was necessary. The guy has had teams and offenses built around him that consistently outperformed their talent level by a large margin, and his peak playoff performance (11) was so outrageously good it shook the foundation of what lots of us thought about Dirk. It's easy to forget about him, because he's lanky and awkward and quiet, but I urge everyone to consider that you can in fact dominate a game without looking like a traditional American superstar does while doing it.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#56 » by eminence » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:00 pm

Going to copy my ballot from the last thread, hope to get involved in some discussion this evening.

1st Ballot: Stephen Curry 14-15 Not sure quite how high(want to let it sit for a while yet), but if I was doing an offense only season ranking this season would be a virtual lock for top 5 and could have a shot at #1.

2nd Ballot: Dwyane Wade 08-09 I've been convinced on this one. Giving it to Wade over Paul for a his individual scoring edge and a bit better defense vs better playmaking from Paul.

3rd Ballot: Chris Paul 07-08 Cooled a bit on his defense. Doesn't make a large part of ranking him this high, but when everyone is this close a tiny change in perception can knock a guy up or down a few spots.

HM: West, DrJ, and then a whole bunch more. One guy I'm looking at for the next group that I haven't heard brought up yet is Grant Hill, thought he had a pretty good mini Lebron type season in 96-97.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#57 » by Keller61 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:27 pm

I think people should be careful not to assign individual players too much credit/blame for their team's offensive/defensive rating. A lot of that has to do with the coach and what system they're running. To treat the players as if they are entirely responsible for their team's ORtg/DRtg is to deny that coaches make any impact. It can certainly be a point of discussion, but team context should be accounted for. In the case of 2009 Wade, he played on a slow-paced defensive team that didn't have a brilliantly-designed offense, and so Wade's individual stats can't be dismissed. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a team like the D'Antoni Suns, whose entire system was designed around offense, to the point of essentially sacrificing defense.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#58 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:20 pm

Keller61 wrote:I think people should be careful not to assign individual players too much credit/blame for their team's offensive/defensive rating. A lot of that has to do with the coach and what system they're running. To treat the players as if they are entirely responsible for their team's ORtg/DRtg is to deny that coaches make any impact. It can certainly be a point of discussion, but team context should be accounted for. In the case of 2009 Wade, he played on a slow-paced defensive team that didn't have a brilliantly-designed offense, and so Wade's individual stats can't be dismissed. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a team like the D'Antoni Suns, whose entire system was designed around offense, to the point of essentially sacrificing defense.


This is a good point.

I haven't been involved in this but have been reading some on the side. The portability arguments being made against Wade seem to stretch over the course of different years, even though its a peaks project so I'm not sure the value in that. Pointing to him breaking down physically in 2013 should have very little relevance in how portable he was at his peak, when his 3-point shot was actually a viable option and/or he was a goat level slasher next to Jordan (09 or 06 depending which you prefer).

Additionally, if one really wanted to question Wade's portability, why not look at his performance on the one truly great team he played for during his peak, the 2008 US national team? Where he was the leading scorer and most efficient player by far, and contributed immensely without ever disrupting the offense, while players like LeBron and Kobe took more shots and isolations to score fewer points? I understand it isn't the NBA, but it was still highly competitive basketball, and if one were looking to examine Wade's portability I see no reason why we can't look there.
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#59 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:13 pm

1st ballot - Julius Erving 1976
2nd ballot - Oscar Robertson 1964
3rd ballot - Jerry West 1966


I think Dr J should be in top 15, I will choose him as long as he is available.
About Oscar:
Oscar anchored the best offense in the league both years. In fact, he was the best offensive player in 1960s and one of the best ever. I have never seen him playing during that specific years, but there are available videos from 1966 series vs Celtics and some of his performances as a Buck. He looks just amazing. He never did the wasted move, he creates many oportiunities for his teammates. He liked slow pace (unheard in 1960s), he was very ball dominant. So what? I don't think there have been 5 players in history better on offense than him with the ball in their hands. LeBron is also very ball dominant and he is 3rd peak of all time.
Oscar had many skills. His midrange was comparable to West (although he didn't use it as much as Jerry), his post game was AMAZING and his playmaking was top-tier. Have you ever seen as strong PG as him? Because I don't. Also, he was great at running P&Rs, which is a good sign for today playing.
About his defense - I have never seen player uses his hands as much as him. He was the real "hand-checker", his man defense was very physical. Overall, he was good. Not great or amazing but really good (especially as a man defender).
Overall, I have Oscar over West because he was better offensive player and his defense is still very good (worse than West though).


After Oscar, I have some troubles with next pick. It's between West, Wade and Moses. I think West and Wade are better offensive players than Moses while being still great defenders, so Moses is out (and I'm big fan of his game).

With West vs Wade - West has some advantages over Wade: shooting, defense (West was AMAZING defender, even better than Wade), off-ball play. West is also more impressive playoffs performer in my opinion (as good as Wade is) and just as good in RS. They are overall very similar. Both draws many fouls, both are great slashers (Wade is better), great playmakers, help defenders. I think West shooting compared with his amazing playoff run is a key factor in this comparison.
I choose 1966 as a West's peak because of combination of his amazing RS and even better playoffs. He was also great in 1965 (but worse RS), 1969 (missed too many games in RS) and 1970. I think 1970 is very close to 1966, but while West has great numbers in postseason, he should get some blame for losing against the Knicks. Lakers had to won game 5, when Willis injured his knee, but they didn't. I think it's both Wilt and Jerry fault (even though they both played good finals).
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Re: Peaks Project #14 

Post#60 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:36 pm

Keller61 wrote:I think people should be careful not to assign individual players too much credit/blame for their team's offensive/defensive rating. A lot of that has to do with the coach and what system they're running. To treat the players as if they are entirely responsible for their team's ORtg/DRtg is to deny that coaches make any impact. It can certainly be a point of discussion, but team context should be accounted for. In the case of 2009 Wade, he played on a slow-paced defensive team that didn't have a brilliantly-designed offense, and so Wade's individual stats can't be dismissed. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a team like the D'Antoni Suns, whose entire system was designed around offense, to the point of essentially sacrificing defense.


I very much agree in principle.

That said, I only brought this up in the context of Dirk. I haven't really used this as an argument for any other players, and there are a few reasons why I feel it's particularly relevant to look at this in regards to Dirk:

1. His context changed so much throughout his career. The amount of different styles and coaches he's played for are staggering, let alone his different teammates. From Don Nelson playing him at Center and instituting a crazy smallball motion offense to Avery Johnson's grind-it-out, iso heavy style to Rick Carlisle's "flow" motion half court offense. That's 3 radically different systems in just the 7 years between 03-11, and Dirk flourished in all of them.
2. Consistency. Dirk's teams achieved the same offensive rating (like, literally within a range of +/- 1) in basically every series they played in. That's startling, and one of the big tenets of data analysis is pattern recognition. It's a really big deal that despite all the radical changes happening around him, Dirk kept that offense performing at that same elite level.

For what it's worth, this is exactly the argument that Doctor MJ has used to support Bill Russell as the GOAT. That everything changed besides him and elite defense, and in fact I'd argue Dirk has undergone even more change considering all the different coaching styles. Essentially, if you're a big supporter of Bill Russell, the same argument applies to Dirk offensively.

I did post this on the first page, but looking back I went more for rhetoric and less for precise language. If people are reading my argument as "Dirk is better than Wade because his team's had better ORTG", that's not what I'm saying at all. What I AM saying is that the astounding consistency of both Dirk's and his team's performance drastically increases the likelihood that he is the one causing it, and this stance is made even more reasonable by the fact that his skill set is one we intuitively know to be portable and lead to super high-performing offense (see Bird, Larry), and his individual numbers paint the picture of one of the best scorers ever.

All of this taken together, for me, simply makes it far more likely than not that we can attribute a big share of Dirk's team offensive performance to him.

Finally, this doesn't mean I think Wade is a lesser offensive player because his teams weren't good offensively. It does mean, though, that we have no reason to believe he could lead an offense as good as Dirk has.

EDIT, to clarify: I am being EXTREMELY careful assigning the Mavericks' offensive performance solely to Dirk. It's just that I've looked at the evidence and it's the conclusion that makes the most sense.
“I’m not the fastest guy on the court, but I can dictate when the race begins.”

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