Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

Mulhollanddrive · Post #1361 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:25 am

If making 4m bucks is unsuccesful I want to be a huge failure!

NavLDO · Post #1362 » by **NavLDO** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:......
Anyway, I have zero confidence in this organization now. I have lost it completely. ...... I have never been less excited for a Suns season in my life.

Absolutely hilarious. Boy, you and FrankLo are two peas in a pod. What don't you understand about building a team? .....

So again, can we give the guy a chance beyond 2 years before we start burning him at the stake? If we finish this season with similar results, and assuming we don't have injuries to key players like Bledsoe, Len, Chandler, and Knight, which cause us to finish near .500, at that point, then yes, I could understand the negativity, but until then, I would suggest we all refrain from the bashing.

Losing confidence and respect is hardly bashing... its a personal feeling. As far as I have seen , there has been very little discussion about sacking McDo... just reminders that he is not Kid Midas. I would suggest there are more peas in this pod than what you care to acknowledge. BTW, this has been anything but a smooth rebuild... oh, but we need to be nicey nice with the young GM.

Keep in mind, not all of us are not in line to motorboat McDo's asscheeks. and suggesting someone to refrain from 'bashing', especially when they explain themselves is homer-esqe censorship.

Hey Nevets .... you have an itinerary ?

I would suggest you are closer to 'bashing' McD than I am to 'kissing his rear-end'. I've stated multiple times about the mistakes I feel he's made; I just choose to reognize that it takes time to build a contender, while others feel like we should already be sitting at the 4 Seed or higher, competing for an NBA Championship 2 years following the hiring of a new GM and HC.

Can you point to an example of when a team went from a sub .400 winning percentage, hiring a new GM and HC, and then went to a Conference Championship game two years later? Do you think this is something that happens often, or at least more often than not? I'd hazard a guess that the answer to that is 'no'. It takes time to develop draft picks--why is McD and Horny not given that time before fans 'completely lose confidence' in them? That's not 'kissing butt', that's called having reasonable expectations.

Scutt · Post #1363 » by **Scutt** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:20 pm

NavLDO wrote:
I would suggest you are closer to 'bashing' McD than I am to 'kissing his rear-end'. I've stated multiple times about the mistakes I feel he's made; I just choose to reognize that it takes time to build a contender, while others feel like we should already be sitting at the 4 Seed or higher, competing for an NBA Championship 2 years following the hiring of a new GM and HC.

Can you point to an example of when a team went from a sub .400 winning percentage, hiring a new GM and HC, and then went to a Conference Championship game two years later? Do you think this is something that happens often, or at least more often than not? I'd hazard a guess that the answer to that is 'no'. It takes time to develop draft picks--why is McD and Horny not given that time before fans 'completely lose confidence' in them? That's not 'kissing butt', that's called having reasonable expectations.

I think a lot of fans are not upset that the Suns aren't contenders, they are upset that the Suns are putting player development on the back burner, in favor of trying to sneak into the 8th seed. Where do you see the Suns developing their draft picks? Was it when they went out and signed a 33 year old Tyson Chandler to be the new starter, demoting Alex Len? Or maybe it was when they brought in Weems, limiting the opportunities for Goodwin and Booker?

I do not blame Ryan McDonough, this all falls on Robert Sarver. He cannot handle a proper rebuild and desperately wants to remain competitive and sneak into the playoffs year after year, hoping for a disgruntled star to land in his lap, like Houston. I wouldn't have an issue taking this route, if the players who were leading us to that 8th seed were mostly the young guys we are developing. Yet, they brought in 3 guys, all over or pushing 30 years old, this offseason to play big roles in the rotation. Realistically, the Suns rotation will only have 2 players, maybe 3, under the age of 25. How can the team be considered rebuilding when that is the case?

This year is going to be Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, and a heavy dose of 30 year olds (Chandler, Tucker, Weems, and Teleovic) trying to fight for the 8th seed, with occasional appearances by Alex Len and TJ Warren. I would much prefer it be Bledsoe and Knight, with a group of young developing guys ( Len, Warren, Booker, and Goodwin) that are competing for the 8th seed. At least the bulk the roster has the chance to really grow, and then we can have a team that can build off an 8th seed spot, not just sneak into one. Eric Bledsoe and Brandon are not rookies, they are old enough to be considered the veteran's leading a young rebuilding team. We shouldn't need half our rotation to be 30 year old role players.

Years90Suns · Post #1364 » by **Years90Suns** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:54 pm

Scutt wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
I would suggest you are closer to 'bashing' McD than I am to 'kissing his rear-end'. I've stated multiple times about the mistakes I feel he's made; I just choose to reognize that it takes time to build a contender, while others feel like we should already be sitting at the 4 Seed or higher, competing for an NBA Championship 2 years following the hiring of a new GM and HC.

Can you point to an example of when a team went from a sub .400 winning percentage, hiring a new GM and HC, and then went to a Conference Championship game two years later? Do you think this is something that happens often, or at least more often than not? I'd hazard a guess that the answer to that is 'no'. It takes time to develop draft picks--why is McD and Horny not given that time before fans 'completely lose confidence' in them? That's not 'kissing butt', that's called having reasonable expectations.

I think a lot of fans are not upset that the Suns aren't contenders, they are upset that the Suns are putting player development on the back burner, in favor of trying to sneak into the 8th seed. Where do you see the Suns developing their draft picks? Was it when they went out and signed a 33 year old Tyson Chandler to be the new starter, demoting Alex Len? Or maybe it was when they brought in Weems, limiting the opportunities for Goodwin and Booker?

I do not blame Ryan McDonough, this all falls on Robert Sarver. He cannot handle a proper rebuild and desperately wants to remain competitive and sneak into the playoffs year after year, hoping for a disgruntled star to land in his lap, like Houston. I wouldn't have an issue taking this route, if the players who were leading us to that 8th seed were mostly the young guys we are developing. Yet, they brought in 3 guys, all over or pushing 30 years old, this offseason to play big roles in the rotation. Realistically, the Suns rotation will only have 2 players, maybe 3, under the age of 25. How can the team be considered rebuilding when that is the case?

This year is going to be Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, and a heavy dose of 30 year olds (Chandler, Tucker, Weems, and Teleovic) trying to fight for the 8th seed, with occasional appearances by Alex Len and TJ Warren. I would much prefer it be Bledsoe and Knight, with a group of young developing guys ( Len, Warren, Booker, and Goodwin) that are competing for the 8th seed. At least the bulk the roster has the chance to really grow, and then we can have a team that can build off an 8th seed spot, not just sneak into one. Eric Bledsoe and Brandon are not rookies, they are old enough to be considered the veteran's leading a young rebuilding team. We shouldn't need half our rotation to be 30 year old role players.

I completely agree with you.
At the beginnig I considered Chandle'rs movement as a good one, but then I slowly realized that it was an image transaction to lure an old center to the franchise and to try to imprese free agents, especially LMA, to the Valley. Chandler was wanted by nobody as an old C who does not attract double teams, neither has any passing ability or any post game. He is a mammonth belonging to another style of play. He could be useful with a 27 point a game guy like Nowitzy, so he could get the rebounds and defend and do the dirty work. We need a different thing. Especially three years down the road, when he is 37... oh, my God...

If we are supposed to develop a winnig team, what the f*c* are we doing playing Weems, Tucker, Chandler... I had understood signing a veteran center two years ago or even a y ear ago. But do we really need a 34 year old Chandler to get minutes from Len? This is a joke...

Do we really need Weems when we have Goodwin and Knight or Bledsoe to play the SF position, and Warren the SF spot? Come on...

I understand getting Knight. He is 23. Bledsoe is a good PG, but I do not know whether he ever become a pasionate player, as he seems to be really happy about the money he got but doesn's seem to die for giving the extra effort... at least, here or while we are this competitive...

I understand keeping Warren and Goodwin... but, when are they gonna play, if ever?

I believe the business side of this is killing Sarver. He knows that 2-3 PO games are 6-8 millions bucks and he dreams about that. That would be the difference between a bad and a good year financially for him, I guess.

The West is still loaded with OKC, Spurs, Grizzlies, Clippers, Warriors and Rockets. That is already 6 teams that are better than us. Then we have NO, who I believe are better because of AD, who maybe has more quality than our entire roster. That leaves 1 spot for Utah, Portland, Dallas and the Lakers, who I think will be an average team with Kobe, Randle, Clarkson, Hibbert, Bass, Williams and Russell.
If we fail to make the PO, which we probably will, we had expended 3 years playing in no-mand's land, which is the worst possible scenario in this League: not getting up, not getting down, not getting any experience playing PO games for our youngsters and not getting any better because we do not get good rookies, neither any body of a certain level wants to end up here...

The best thing to happen to this franchise we all know what would be. Let's hope it happens within the next couple of years.

RaisingArizona · Post #1365 » by **RaisingArizona** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:56 pm

Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

TeamTragic · Post #1366 » by **TeamTragic** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:57 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
GoranTragic wrote: If they have issues this season as they did last season then get the pink slips ready

I think that is part of our problem. Constant churning, not only of the players but of the front office and coaches. I'm a big believer in continuity. Many of the best franchises in sports have had continuity, and they rarely stay in bad stretches for long (Steelers, Pats, Spurs, etc).

I believe if we stick with this FO and coach and they grow together and we kept them for a long time, we would become they type of team that contends year in and year out at some point. If we give people three years and turn it all over, we are going nowhere fast.

People complain about the FO sometimes and treadmilling, and then they want to do the same thing with the FO and coaches that they are complaining about with constant changing of the roster.

You can expect roster turnover the first couple of years a new regime takes over. I think had we signed LMA and then traded Kieff (or even kept him) we would basically have our team, and could just rely mostly on adding draft picks. If we were a LMA away from being really competitive, then we are not all that far off....and we are young at every position with a couple of vets to help out at the spots where the future is REALLY young (3 years or less in nba).

I think you are definitely using logic here. However the problem with waiting around is that our conference is ridiculously competitive. There are teams with younger/better talent that will only get better over the years. If we spend too much time with a front office that is good but no great we will fall behind the younger teams.

I'm not saying that a young team is guaranteed to be make the play-offs and compete however I would prefer Wiggins on this team. It is impossible to build a future proof team though last season was such a trainwreck I'm not sure where this franchise goes from here.

Post #1367 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:02 am

GoranTragic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
GoranTragic wrote: If they have issues this season as they did last season then get the pink slips ready

I think that is part of our problem. Constant churning, not only of the players but of the front office and coaches. I'm a big believer in continuity. Many of the best franchises in sports have had continuity, and they rarely stay in bad stretches for long (Steelers, Pats, Spurs, etc).

I believe if we stick with this FO and coach and they grow together and we kept them for a long time, we would become they type of team that contends year in and year out at some point. If we give people three years and turn it all over, we are going nowhere fast.

People complain about the FO sometimes and treadmilling, and then they want to do the same thing with the FO and coaches that they are complaining about with constant changing of the roster.

You can expect roster turnover the first couple of years a new regime takes over. I think had we signed LMA and then traded Kieff (or even kept him) we would basically have our team, and could just rely mostly on adding draft picks. If we were a LMA away from being really competitive, then we are not all that far off....and we are young at every position with a couple of vets to help out at the spots where the future is REALLY young (3 years or less in nba).

I think you are definitely using logic here. However the problem with waiting around is that our conference is ridiculously competitive. There are teams with younger/better talent that will only get better over the years. If we spend too much time with a front office that is good but no great we will fall behind the younger teams.

I'm not saying that a young team is guaranteed to be make the play-offs and compete however I would prefer Wiggins on this team. It is impossible to build a future proof team though last season was such a trainwreck I'm not sure where this franchise goes from here.

I think most of us are not living in fantasy land and know that some of the younger teams appear to have better young talent for the future and the top teams obviously have better talent. The problem is that you don't get Wiggins (or Towns) by having a phenomenal front office...you get them from luck and/or having a dysfunctional team or sucking.

I think McD kind of wanted to get a high pick that year and unloaded our vets....Sarver may have prevented him from trading Dragic, which in turn, led to us overachieving and altering our course into no man's land. Now you can't really pull for us to really suck, because the draft isn't great next year, and we have enough talent to be competitive. So you kind of have to hope for the best unless you want to make yourself miserable.

I see a handful of people really pissed off at the FO, but I have been far more pissed at past front offices like the Colangelos, and the ones following for making treadmill or simply bad moves.

dmastro32 · Post #1368 » by **dmastro32** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:30 am

ginobiliflops wrote:Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

I will be there

Stix · Post #1369 » by **Stix** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:49 am

dmastro32 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

I will be there

When is it?

dmastro32 · Post #1370 » by **dmastro32** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:52 am

Next Saturday at the madhouse scrimmage starts at 6 but they got a fan session starting at 330

Frank Lee · Post #1371 » by **Frank Lee** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:06 am

NavLDO wrote:
I would suggest you are closer to 'bashing' McD than I am to 'kissing his rear-end'. I've stated multiple times about the mistakes I feel he's made; I just choose to reognize that it takes time to build a contender, while others feel like we should already be sitting at the 4 Seed or higher, competing for an NBA Championship 2 years following the hiring of a new GM and HC.

Can you point to an example of when a team went from a sub .400 winning percentage, hiring a new GM and HC, and then went to a Conference Championship game two years later? Do you think this is something that happens often, or at least more often than not? I'd hazard a guess that the answer to that is 'no'. It takes time to develop draft picks--why is McD and Horny not given that time before fans 'completely lose confidence' in them? That's not 'kissing butt', that's called having reasonable expectations.

Can you point to an example of someone who says we should be 'contending' now... ? You are stretching trues to make some lollypop licking point about patience. Its not unreasonable to think after three off seasons we would have a defined core or identity. Fact is, this has been a shaky rebuild, full of roster gutting and directionless moves, that leave the experts and even the players wondering wtf we are doing.

I am tempering my bashing for the moment. McDo has been making reactionary moves running damage control for over a yr now. At least he has brought on some likable guys. Lets hope they can put a respectable product on the court.

RaisingArizona · Post #1372 » by **RaisingArizona** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:20 am

dmastro32 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

I will be there

We should all meet up down there.

dmastro32 · Post #1373 » by **dmastro32** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:17 am

ginobiliflops wrote:
dmastro32 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

I will be there

We should all meet up down there.

I am down going with my pops

Revived · Post #1374 » by **Revived** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:23 am

bwgood77 wrote:If you would be fine with the FO had LMA signed, does that mean your opinion of the entire FO rests on the decision of one player?

This isn't a fair question to ask him IMO because in sports, one player's decision can make a drastic difference.

If LeBron doesn't choose CLE, good chance that Minnesota ends up with a disgruntled Love who walks for nothing or they get crap for him and Saunders gets fired.

If LeBron didn't choose Miami, Erik Spoelstra no longer has a HC job in the NBA.

If LeBron didn't choose Miami, millions of people don't take days off work to go championship parades in two years because it doesn't happen.

If Peyton doesn't choose Denver, Tim Tebow may still remain in the NFL.

If Harden didn't want more money from Thunder, Rockets still remain a treadmill team.

If the Bucks didn't lose the coin flip....

If T-Mac or Vince never left Toronto....

If Shaq never fought with Kobe...

One player could mean the difference between playoffs and not playoffs. One player's decision can lead to many people losing their jobs.

To shun something away by saying "Oh so if we had just gotten this one player then you'd be happy?" is kinda silly.

I bet Hornets fans would be thrilled if that one player,LeBron, signed with them and they would remain disgruntled without LeBron on their team.

If you want to put it into perspective outside of sports, one man's decision could be the difference between life and death.

Post #1375 » by **Qwigglez** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:34 am

ginobiliflops wrote:
dmastro32 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:Is anyone going to the scrimmage next week?

I will be there

We should all meet up down there.

I dare you to tell a yo momma joke to Kieff.

Twuan89 · Post #1376 » by **Twuan89** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:43 am

How Good Can The Phoenix Suns Be This Season?

Post #1377 » by **Qwigglez** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 am

^Gonna wait til the Morris situation settles before I evaluate. I think team chemistry is a big factor in determining how successful we can potentially be.

Revived · Post #1378 » by **Revived** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:03 am

Today's media day, anyone care to speculate on what Markieff Morris will say today? Surely he's gonna be asked about all this...

Post #1379 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:59 pm

I think Markieff would keep his head down and not say much, however, it may be inevitable that someone (a reporter) pokes and prods him to try and get a rise out of him, and at that point I think he will simply be honest and say "no, I wasn't happy my brother was traded, the way it was done, and I don't trust the front office" at which point people will again go crazy here and say he needs to be traded even if it is for a bag of chips.

m1chal · Post #1380 » by **m1chal** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:21 pm

bwgood77 wrote:I think he will simply be honest and say "no, I wasn't happy my brother was traded, the way it was done, and I don't trust the front office" at which point people will again go crazy here and say he needs to be traded even if it is for a bag of chips.

Hah, I can honestly say it even without a word from Markieff. I'd rather have a bag of chips (and a 1st round draft pick if possible) than Kieff on this team.