The Marvin Gaye Williams Thread

[Braggins]

I don't want Marvin or Psycho in the regular rotation. If they both are...

Cody, Al, Frank, and Hawes should be our top four bigs on the depth chart. Marv is a mediocre shooter and mediocre defender at both forward positions. There really isn't much of an upside to giving him anything more than spot minutes at PF and SF. Psycho T is just terrible and should only see the court if there are injuries. However, its Clifford making these decisions, so I'm sure he is going to do everything he can to give Marvin and Psycho way more minutes than they deserve to reward their professionalism and good attitudes.

[Mystical Apples]

Toronto had some pretty funky results in November and December and a lot of home games. Hansbrough had a net rating of +27 in those months - in just the 4th quarter.

His net plus rating is almost entirely on offense - 112 - which is better than Golden State, an odd number for a guy who doesn't shoot or pass.

All kidding aside he could be useful in certain spots and in practice he's the perfect player to throw at Kaminsky to accelerate his progress.

[Bassman]

You can cite all the stats you want about Marvin. He does not pass the eye test in games. Now he is a year older. I still say Clifford might implode here. Players may like him but is his "Orlando Redeaux" design really a good idea?

[yosemiteben]

He looked really good post all star break last year. In 30 games he shot 40% from three on almost for attempts per game.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Cliff's problem is that, if he plays MKG & Al as starters, then the other 3 guys have to be long range threats. Cody hasn't shown that he can fill that role even if he's great on D. Frank is rookie and will need time to learn the NBA and really earn a starting role on a playoff bound team. Hawes can fit here, but then who becomes the backup center?

[Mystical Apples]

He looked really good post all star break last year. In 30 games he shot 40% from three on almost for attempts per game.

Also the Mo Williams effect. Marvins 3 % with various players on the court

Mo- 43%
Al - 38%
Biz- 36%
Kemba - 36%
Hendo - 36%
Lance - 33%

[Eoghan]

Roll out a...

Roberts
Lin
Harrison
Marv
Sucko Weak Tea

...lineup Cliff. C'mon, you know you want to.

[Braggins]

I'd so much rather have Tolliver.

[yosemiteben]

I'd so much rather have Tolliver.

That just seems dumb to me. Last season Tolliver had a lower FG% and only slightly higher 3PT%. He's also a terrible defender and poor rebounder.

If you're saying that on the basis of last season's performance I don't get it.

[Braggins]

I'd so much rather have Tolliver.

That just seems dumb to me. Last season Tolliver had a lower FG% and only slightly higher 3PT%. He's also a terrible defender and poor rebounder.

If you're saying that on the basis of last season's performance I don't get it.

I guess I didn't really pay attention to what he did last season.

Marvin isn't exactly good at defense or rebounding. Tolliver is cheap.

[yosemiteben]

I guess I didn't really pay attention to what he did last season.

Marvin isn't exactly good at defense or rebounding. Tolliver is cheap.

Marvin is a much better defender and rebounder than Tolliver. Last season Marv's DRPM was 31st among all PFs. Tolliver's DRPM was 56th. It's been five years since Tolliver matched Marv's TR% from last year.

At this point it doesn't matter how much they cost, and Marvin gives us more expiring salary thus making him more useful as a trade option.

Really just comes off as you wanting to be negative. If we can get post-ASB Marv from last season, he'll be a nice asset for this team.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I'm not horrified at the idea of him starting ... but I do think that some of last year's awkwardness was due to how he was used. If that doesn't change then I would expect him to be brought off the bench after some number of games, just like last year.

On the other hand I'll be curious to see if the overall team focus on more passing helps him ... and Batum & Lin's passing in particular offer a bit of hope in my mind that he will get the ball in better positions to score this year.

[Mystical Apples]

I think it's plausible Marvin starts while only playing 12-15 minutes a game, with some of those minutes at sf.

[Braggins]

I guess I didn't really pay attention to what he did last season.

Marvin isn't exactly good at defense or rebounding. Tolliver is cheap.

Marvin is a much better defender and rebounder than Tolliver. Last season Marv's DRPM was 31st among all PFs. Tolliver's DRPM was 56th. It's been five years since Tolliver matched Marv's TR% from last year.

At this point it doesn't matter how much they cost, and Marvin gives us more expiring salary thus making him more useful as a trade option.

Really just comes off as you wanting to be negative. If we can get post-ASB Marv from last season, he'll be a nice asset for this team.

Well, if you are assuming our defense and rebounding will be fine no matter what then that stuff doesnt really matter and Tolly is definitely the better deep threat. The defense is the last thing youre worried about. I wouldnt want either getting many minutes. Id still rather have Tolliver as a 5th big. I feel like Post ASB Tolliver from two seasons ago performed better than Marvin has for us, but I could be wrong since i havent looked at the numbers in a while.

[yosemiteben]

Well, if you are assuming our defense and rebounding will be fine no matter what then that stuff doesnt really matter and Tolly is definitely the better deep threat. The defense is the last thing youre worried about. I wouldnt want either getting many minutes. Id still rather have Tolliver as a 5th big. I feel like Post ASB Tolliver from two seasons ago performed better than Marvin has for us, but I could be wrong since i havent looked at the numbers in a while.

Even ignoring the fact that Marv is a better defender and rebounder, Marv is the better and more useful offensive player. Tolliver is a one trick pony as an outside shooter but historically he hasn't been great at that.

Tolliver 2013-14 post-ASB: 20 games played, 18.6 MPG, 6.7 pts, 40% FG, 36.3% 3PT, 76.5% FT, 2.3 boards
Marv 2014-15 post-ASB: 30 games played, 28.4 MPG, 8.7 pts, 42.5% FG, 39.3% 3PT, 76.2% FT, 5.6 boards

[HornetJail]

Well, if you are assuming our defense and rebounding will be fine no matter what then that stuff doesnt really matter and Tolly is definitely the better deep threat. The defense is the last thing youre worried about. I wouldnt want either getting many minutes. Id still rather have Tolliver as a 5th big. I feel like Post ASB Tolliver from two seasons ago performed better than Marvin has for us, but I could be wrong since i havent looked at the numbers in a while.

Even ignoring the fact that Marv is a better defender and rebounder, Marv is the better and more useful offensive player. Tolliver is a one trick pony as an outside shooter but historically he hasn't been great at that.

Tolliver 2013-14 post-ASB: 20 games played, 18.6 MPG, 6.7 pts, 40% FG, 36.3% 3PT, 76.5% FT, 2.3 boards
Marv 2014-15 post-ASB: 30 games played, 28.4 MPG, 8.7 pts, 42.5% FG, 39.3% 3PT, 76.2% FT, 5.6 boards

You picked the worst part of Tolliver's season, and the best part of Marvin's season FWIW. Outside of shooting 3s, neither of them does anything better than "merely passable", so through the entirety of 2013-14, Tolliver shot 41.3% from three, with 2.8 makes per 36 minutes, while Marvin in 2014-15 shot 35.8% from three, with 1.7 makes per 36. I would give the rebounding edge to Marvin, the inside scoring edge to Marvin, the passing edge to Tolliver, and defense is a wash. Not going to argue any of these because none of this is anything special from either player. Both went through shooting slumps and bursts of great shooting.

Basically Marvin and Tolliver are both useless when they're not shooting well. So I'll take the 41% three point shooter who shoots more 3s in less minutes than the 36% three point shooter who doesn't shoot it all that much. It's kind of a no-brainer.

[tondi123]

If we traded him for a top 55 protected second rounder in 2020 I would be thrilled. The thought of him being on a roster with Cliff coaching scares the crap out of me. If he plays at all it should only be in situations where we need a 3pt shooter, like the last possession of a quarter or something.

[Braggins]

Well, if you are assuming our defense and rebounding will be fine no matter what then that stuff doesnt really matter and Tolly is definitely the better deep threat. The defense is the last thing youre worried about. I wouldnt want either getting many minutes. Id still rather have Tolliver as a 5th big. I feel like Post ASB Tolliver from two seasons ago performed better than Marvin has for us, but I could be wrong since i havent looked at the numbers in a while.

Even ignoring the fact that Marv is a better defender and rebounder, Marv is the better and more useful offensive player. Tolliver is a one trick pony as an outside shooter but historically he hasn't been great at that.

Tolliver 2013-14 post-ASB: 20 games played, 18.6 MPG, 6.7 pts, 40% FG, 36.3% 3PT, 76.5% FT, 2.3 boards
Marv 2014-15 post-ASB: 30 games played, 28.4 MPG, 8.7 pts, 42.5% FG, 39.3% 3PT, 76.2% FT, 5.6 boards

You picked the worst part of Tolliver's season, and the best part of Marvin's season FWIW. Outside of shooting 3s, neither of them does anything better than "merely passable", so through the entirety of 2013-14, Tolliver shot 41.3% from three, with 2.8 makes per 36 minutes, while Marvin in 2014-15 shot 35.8% from three, with 1.7 makes per 36. I would give the rebounding edge to Marvin, the inside scoring edge to Marvin, the passing edge to Tolliver, and defense is a wash. Not going to argue any of these because none of this is anything special from either player. Both went through shooting slumps and bursts of great shooting.

Basically Marvin and Tolliver are both useless when they're not shooting well. So I'll take the 41% three point shooter who shoots more 3s in less minutes than the 36% three point shooter who doesn't shoot it all that much. It's kind of a no-brainer.

I 100% agree with you, but in all fairness, he brought up Tolliver's post all-star break numbers because I mentioned that I thought he did better post ASB than Marvin. I specifically remembered announcers talking about Tolliver's overall 3pt% being 40% in some of our post ASB games that season, but I guess I didn't realize that he was actually kind of in a slump at the time. He was just correcting me.

[yosemiteben]

You picked the worst part of Tolliver's season, and the best part of Marvin's season FWIW.

I didn't pick that portion of Tolliver's season, Braggins did. I can take some blame though because I knew that Tolly was better pre-ASB, hid the ball there a bit

I would give the rebounding edge to Marvin, the inside scoring edge to Marvin, the passing edge to Tolliver, and defense is a wash. Not going to argue any of these because none of this is anything special from either player. Both went through shooting slumps and bursts of great shooting.

Basically Marvin and Tolliver are both useless when they're not shooting well. So I'll take the 41% three point shooter who shoots more 3s in less minutes than the 36% three point shooter who doesn't shoot it all that much. It's kind of a no-brainer.

Well the two seasons before that 41% season Tolliver shot 24.8% and 33.8% from three, and the season after he shot 36.6%, so it's a bit misleading to act like shooting 41% from three is the norm for him.

The last time that Tolliver finished a season with an AST% higher than Marv was in 2010-11, so not sure why he gets the edge in passing. Defense isn't a wash, Marv is the clearly superior defender based on DRPM, defensive win shares, and DRTG, plus his superior rebounding is also helpful defensively.

Pretty much Marv does everything better than Tolliver, except for one year in the past four that Tolliver posted a statistically significantly better 3PT%.

[HornetJail]

If we traded him for a top 55 protected second rounder in 2020 I would be thrilled. The thought of him being on a roster with Cliff coaching scares the crap out of me. If he plays at all it should only be in situations where we need a 3pt shooter, like the last possession of a quarter or something.

And for those scenarios, we have Lin, Kemba, Daniels, Lamb, Batum, Hawes, Frank, and maybe PJ who can shoot it as well or better than Marvin.