Peak Project #16

[70sFan]

1st ballot - Jerry West 1966
2nd ballot - Dwyane Wade 2006/2009
3rd ballot - Moses Malone 1983

I like that people want to discuss about Wade vs West. I'm a big West supporter, but it's such a close comparison. Why I have West over Wade?
First of all, West was better shooter. Yes, we don't have numbers to confirm this, but there are a few of his game available as well as some highlights. Just look at this video:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzwR1a8KuA&list=PLk0ojkrQDIQ6G7V9qURSy4YRm_Y6sglQI&index=6[/youtube]
He showed some jumper and his pull-up is unguardable. I think he was clearly better shooter than Wade (not a knock on Wade, he is underrated midrange shooter in my opinion). On the other hand, Wade has advantage on his slashing ability. I think only Jordan is close to Wade in that aspect (at SG spot at least). Jerry was very good slasher and had great speed and quickness, but Wade is in conversation for GOAT athlete as a guard. Overall, they are close as a scorers (Wade might have edge in RS, but in playoffs West was unreal).
Playmaking is an overrated part of their game. I think that while they are both elite playmakers as SGs, they have never been close to great PG in that aspect. If I choose 2009 Wade, he might have an edge. If not, they are even (or small edge to West).
And key factor in my opinion - DEFENSE. Wade was very good defender at his peak, but slightly overrated in my opinion. West is praised by everybody played with or against him. I think only Frazier had as quick hands as him. He was just as good shotblocker as Wade (just look at his last seasons) and he looks like better man defender, but I'm not sure.
Overall I think they are so close that West's advantages are more important than Wade's.

Short about my 3rd choice. I think about 3 offensive bigs (Moses Malone, Barkley and Dirk) and Ewing. Overall, Malone is the best defender not named Ewing (especially 1983 Moses). He is the best rebounder by far (even better than Barkley) while being just as good scorer as Dirk and Barkley. Yes, I know he's a poor passer and turnover machine, but it didn't hurt his team as much as many think. His amazing work on offensive glass creates mismatches and turnes opponents in foul trouble.
I just think Ewing is clearly the worst offensive player of this 4. His defense is the best, yes I know, but Ewing was never in the same class with Mutombo or Admiral as a defender. He had bad team in 1990, but their average defense is also Ewing fault. Also, playing against good opponents is a key factor for me. I don't have his numbers from 1990 against Hakeem etc. but I don't think he was close to the Moses's domination against Kareem, Lanier, Sikma, Gilmore and others. Ewing performed usually bad against best centers for the most of his career.
Besides, this season for Patrick is like 2003 TMac. He was never as good as that year (mainly because of injures). Don't get me wrong, I think he should be in conversation but not over Moses in my opinion.

[PaulieWal]

Ballot #1 - Wade 09

I think this was Wade's best season overall when you compare the offensive and defensive load he carried. The team he carried also had almost no consistency and I think was clearly one of the worst supporting casts for a star ever. I don't even need to say anything, I will just leave this here (full credit to SSB):

Spoiler:

Dwyane Wade had a stretch in 2009 like no other:

2/18/2009 - 3/14/2009 (11 G)
37.2 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 10.4 APG, 2.9SPG, 1.4 BPG, 55.3 FG%, 65.7% TS

Yeah this one is the hardest to top IMO.

Wade 2009, late February-March scoring streak (34.7 GameScore!?)

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G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
11   41.5  38.3   6.3   10.4    3.0    1.3   .654    130    34.7

That has to be the best stretch so far. That's just an unreal 11 game stretch. I've seen Jordan and James with the most extended streaks of a 28+ game score, but this is phenomenal.

There's an 8 game run in there that looks like this

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G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
8    42.5  39.9   6.9   10.4    3.6    1.5   .655    131    36.9

He shoots 50% from 3, puts up an AST% of 48.7%, a USG% of 37.1%, a STL% of 4.5%, and a BLK% of 3.1%, all while putting up 40/7/10/4/2 on 66% TS no less

Here's a more detailed look at that stretch. Includes Miami's performance shifts, 4Factors, and Wade's Box lines.

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2009 Miami Heat

[spoiler]Full Season

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Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.3     108.5    108.3    0.26    0.24    0.49   +0.5     0.0    +0.6

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

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Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.2     107.3    107.0    0.29   -0.14   -0.25   -1.0    -1.0    +0.1

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

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Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
91.4     114.6    114.4    0.15    2.07    3.38   +7.5    +5.0    +2.5

Four Factors

Spoiler:

Full Season

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              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       50.0%      24.6%       11.6%      .212
Defense       50.1%      72.9%       14.0%      .251

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

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              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       49.6%      24.5%       11.7%      .212
Defense       49.5%      72.9%       14.2%      .249

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

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              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       52.0%      24.5%       11.0%      .234
Defense       53.8%      72.2%       14.4%      .267

Dwyane Wade

Spoiler:

Average and Per 75 possessions

Full Season

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MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.6  30.2  5.0   7.5   40.3%   3.4   11.6%   57.4% +3.0%   36.2%  115
N/A   31.6  5.3   7.8   N/A     3.6   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

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MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.0  28.8  4.9   6.9   37.8%   3.3   11.4%   55.6% +1.2%   36.5%  111.6
N/A   30.6  7.3   8.0   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

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MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

41.4  37.2  5.9  10.4   50.3%   3.9   12.2%   65.7% +11.3%  36.0%  131
N/A   35.3  5.6   9.9   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

----------------------------------

Miami was able to run a +7.5 offense with Wade playing out of his mind like that.

Ballot #2 - CP 08

Am I crazy or did CP have even a better RS in 09? The only difference is that in 08 his playoffs were on another level too with 12.3 BPM and nearly 31 PER. His defense wasn't as good as it is today but he clearly had the feel for the game and in some ways I think he didn't play as controlled offensively as he plays now.


PS. I am very interested in some of the Wade vs. Curry vs. KD vs. Kobe opinions. I feel very strongly here that Wade had a superior peak though the gap isn't huge by any means.

For my 3rd ballot here I am looking at KD, Curry, Kobe, Dirk, and T-Mac.

Edit: I am open to moving CP down and putting in a ballot for someone else with some good logic.

I am leaning more towards either KD or Kobe here but not entirely sure.

[Dr Positivity]

Ballot 1: Stephen Curry 2015

Ballot 2: Patrick Ewing 1990

Ballot 3: Jerry West 1966

Been voting Curry and Ewing for a few threads. I prefer West over a player like Wade because of spacing reasons.

A note about Jerry West - a TS% like .573 is more impressive in 66 than it would be in 2015. League average TS% in 2015 is .047 higher than in 66. West's .573 also lead the whole league in TS%. Efficiency wise I think it's fair to say West is closer to Curry and Durant than the raw stats say

[thizznation]

For one guy the defensive first team, sufficient block and steal numbers and a good team defensive rating were enough to convince one, even going as far as calling DrJ a defensive anchor, when there is actually sufficient proof that Dr. J was the Kobe like defender of his generation.

West had defensive All-Team selections, more than one...
He has tremendous block and steal numbers as well as good team D-ratings, yet it isn't enough to convince one that he actually is a good defender.


That's a huge double standard here.
Sorry Q, you're a great poster, but this is inconsistent as hell.

Dude, you have made your point. Erving had some years in the NBA where he was being a poor defender according to one statistic.

You never gave us any of the same data for the very year in question.

If you think Jerry West has as much defensive impact as Dr J then you are wrong. Rebounding is a part of defense! Jerry West is a great athlete but he isn't going to be able to challenge shots and come down with the loose balls that Erving can.

If Jerry West as 1.5 Defense, than Erving would be at 2.0.

[The-Power]

1st ballot: 2015 Curry
2nd Ballot: 2011 Nowitzki
3rd ballot: 2008 Paul

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot 1: Stephen Curry 2015

Ballot 2: Patrick Ewing 1990

Ballot 3: Jerry West 1966

Been voting Curry and Ewing for a few threads. I prefer West over a player like Wade because of spacing reasons.

A note about Jerry West - a TS% like .573 is more impressive in 66 than it would be in 2015. League average TS% in 2015 is .047 higher than in 66. West's .573 also lead the whole league in TS%. Efficiency wise I think it's fair to say West is closer to Curry and Durant than the raw stats say

Yup, as I mentioned in my ballot for west last thread, his TS% was +8.6% vs. league average. That would correlate to 62% TS in 2015, so right around the top of the league for a volume scorer. Quite impressive.

EDIT - in fact, it would put him 2nd behind curry for players who put up 20+ PPG: http://bkref.com/tiny/XrUB9

[Samurai]

For one guy the defensive first team, sufficient block and steal numbers and a good team defensive rating were enough to convince one, even going as far as calling DrJ a defensive anchor, when there is actually sufficient proof that Dr. J was the Kobe like defender of his generation.

West had defensive All-Team selections, more than one...
He has tremendous block and steal numbers as well as good team D-ratings, yet it isn't enough to convince one that he actually is a good defender.


That's a huge double standard here.
Sorry Q, you're a great poster, but this is inconsistent as hell.

Dude, you have made your point. Erving had some years in the NBA where he was being a poor defender according to one statistic.

You never gave us any of the same data for the very year in question.

If you think Jerry West has as much defensive impact as Dr J then you are wrong. Rebounding is a part of defense! Jerry West is a great athlete but he isn't going to be able to challenge shots and come down with the loose balls that Erving can.

If Jerry West as 1.5 Defense, than Erving would be at 2.0.

I don't think there can ever be a satisfactory answer to this since arguments are based on stats as opposed to watching the players play. There are no definitive stats for most all of West's career. I did see a lot of Jerry West, both live when the Lakers came to play the Warriors and on TV. To me, he is definitely in the conversation for GOAT-defensive guard. He was a solid, but not GOAT-caliber, man defender. He is clearly in the GOAT conversation as a help defender (he is the best help defender from the guard position that I've ever seen). He was excellent at positioning himself. When his man tried to drive to the basket; West, seemingly beaten, manages to use his hops and extraordinarily long arms to block the layup from behind. He did this so often that Wilt once commented that if blocked shots had been a recorded stat, he thought West would finish third in the league behind himself and Russell. I'm sure Thurmond may disagree with Wilt, but for a PG to be among the league leaders in blocked shots would be remarkable. We do know that West averaged 0.7 blocks/game in his final year, as a broken down 35-year old playing only 31 minutes/game. From what I've personally seen of West blocking shots, I have absolutely no problem seeing him blocking over 2.0 shots a game in his prime, particularly since more shots were blocked in that era than today. Note that Erving blocked 1.9 shots/game in 76 while playing nearly 39 minutes/game.

Defensive responsibilities are different for guards than forwards. But West can clearly impact games with his defense. Here is an old thread in which ThaRegul8r pulled some newspaper stories.

viewtopic.php?t=994965

It should be pointed out that Walt Frazier is often considered one of the greatest ball thieves in history. From 74 (West's final season and the only year blocks and steals were recorded in his career):

Jerry West
SPG: 2.4
Age: 35
MPG: 31

Walt Frazier
SPG: 2.0
Age: 28
MPG: 42

I don't intend to sway anyone's thinking who's mind is made up or just wants a stat-based argument. Bill Russell said that West was the best defensive player in the league the year after Russell retired (I heard him say that myself). Sharman and Hot Rod Hundley called West the best defensive guard they ever saw. They played with or against West and saw many of the later greats as either a GM (Sharman) or broadcaster (Hundley). I only watched West, so my opinion is meaningless. But in the absence of stats, sometimes you have to give at least a little bit of credence to the people who watched basketball if the stat book is empty.

[mischievous]

Can someone please provide evidence that West was even a better playmaker than Wade at all, let alone some vastly superior one?

As for Wade vs West's defense at their peaks, i'm not sure. Pointing to defensive team probably isn't a good idea considering Wade got 2nd team himself in a much deeper league.

[thizznation]

1. Wade 2006
2. Curry 2015
3. Ewing 1990


Next in line
McGrady, West, Kobe, Paul, Moses

[LA Bird]

But what actual elite playmakers do is something else entirely. First of all, they are constantly looking to get teammates the shots they want, as opposed to scoring on huge volume themselves. They have ways of manipulating the defense that are far beyond anything Wade ever displayed (especially Nash), and spatial awareness that allows them to manipulate all 9 players on the floor like chess pieces. Wade was a pure bred attacker, who liked to wait for seams in the defense and blow through them with his superior athleticism. He looked for his shot first and passed if there was something immediate and obvious better. Nash is just in a whole other world; the dude would literally shift defenders with his eyes and then rifle a pass threaded behind their ankle. Nash took every dribble seriously, there was no wasted motion, everything was designed to pull defenders on a string. He was a freaking puppeteer. Wade has never displayed BBIQ within the same universe of what Nash was doing.

Where do you rank peak Nash overall?

[LA Bird]

Ballot 1: Stephen Curry 2015

Ballot 2: Patrick Ewing 1990

Ballot 3: Jerry West 1966

#1 - Dwyane Wade '09
#2 - Tracy McGrady '03
#3 - Patrick Ewing '90

Is there any reason for 90 Ewing being ahead of 90 Barkley? Barkley appears to be better statistically both individually and in terms of team impact (+5.4 O vs -0.1 D). In the Retro POY project from a few years ago, Barkley was unanimously ranked ahead of Ewing at #3. Comparing the players with the highest VORP from both teams, it appears that Barkley was impacting the game more with a similar level of supporting cast.

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1990 Knicks     1990 76ers
5.2 Ewing       9.2 Barkley
2.1 Oakley      2.9 Hawkins
1.4 Wilkins     1.7 Dawkins
1.0 Jackson     1.4 Mahorn
0.7 Newman      0.9 Gminski
0.7 Tucker      0.2 Anderson

[ceiling raiser]

Still Dirk for me.

For guys picking Ewing:

1) How much of his value (relatively speaking) comes offensively vs defensively for you/

2) How many defensive peaks do you put above the year you selected for his peak?

[bastillon]

Curry is getting really overrated right now. He's a great player but you have to understand team composition around him. Curry is playing on a STACKED roster. Tons of good defenders, great spacing, excellent off-ball guys, which don't even need the ball to make high impact.

Curry has had too many poor games in the postseason to be picked this high. I'm specifically worried about his inconsistency in the postseason. Yes, he dumpstered Pelicans (34/7/5) and Rockets (31/5/5) because he had extremely easy matchups and defenses that simply had mismatches at his position. But when he played vs. high quality opponents, he actually struggled quite a bit. Vs. Grizzlies he even had games where he got dominated by Conley/Tony Allen. Over the course of the series was still good but nowhere near the level we're talking about (24/6/5). Also in the finals Curry was very inconsistent. He did step up later in the series and had some huge games, but at the same time was heavily outplayed by Irving and Dellavedova in the first couple. This is a guy who is supposed to be better than Kobe 08, Jerry West 66, Ewing 90, Dirk 11? Really doubt those guys get ever outplayed by Dellavedova.

This is a worrying trend throughout Curry's career because the same thing happened when he faced the Spurs in previous years. After dominating other teams suddenly Curry looked like he had no impact on the game bc of Leonard's defense. He just couldn't put enough pressure on the defense because he's not that good at slashing as other great scorers.

Really think Kobe 06-08 should get some serious traction right now. How quickly people forget what a monster this guy was. He was delivering 35+ any day you wanted and made more difiicult shots than anybody in history. He put enormous pressure on the entire defense. This is why he led amazing offenses with the right supporting cast (08 LA after Gasol's trade).

Nash 05-07 would also be a good candidate. Contrary to many views, he was able to lead excellent offense without offensive supporting cast. Suns with Bell, Marion, Diaw, Kurt Thomas were top of the league offensively with Nash as their carry. By no means can you call that team offensively minded.

If I voted, this would be a hard choice but I'd probably stick with Dirk 11 as my #1, Kobe 08 #2, Ewing 90 at #3, with HMs for Nash, West and Wade.

[bastillon]

Ballot 1: Stephen Curry 2015

Ballot 2: Patrick Ewing 1990

Ballot 3: Jerry West 1966

#1 - Dwyane Wade '09
#2 - Tracy McGrady '03
#3 - Patrick Ewing '90

Is there any reason for 90 Ewing being ahead of 90 Barkley? Barkley appears to be better statistically both individually and in terms of team impact (+5.4 O vs -0.1 D). In the Retro POY project from a few years ago, Barkley was unanimously ranked ahead of Ewing at #3. Comparing the players with the highest VORP from both teams, it appears that Barkley was impacting the game more with a similar level of supporting cast.

Code: Select all

1990 Knicks     1990 76ers
5.2 Ewing       9.2 Barkley
2.1 Oakley      2.9 Hawkins
1.4 Wilkins     1.7 Dawkins
1.0 Jackson     1.4 Mahorn
0.7 Newman      0.9 Gminski
0.7 Tucker      0.2 Anderson

You're ignoring the context. Knicks had an injury spree in the spring. They were going for a 60W season with Ewing which shows how much higher his impact was since Barkley's Sixers were nowhere near that level. The argument for Ewing over Barkley is very simple. While he's clearly worse on the offensive end, he still produces a lot on that end. Meanwhile, Ewing is a defensive monster. Today, he'd be by far the best defensive player in the league. At the same time, Barkley is a defensive liability. Plus, they are both bigs, where defense is more important than offense.

Here are some excellent posts:

People are questioning this guy's defense?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hylBSIMbeZg[/youtube]

Come on...this is '92-'94 Ewing but with way better knees. I mean every game I've seen of his from this season, it's the type of combo of scoring variety, defense and athleticism, Knicks fans always wished he had. He was seen as a better center than Hakeem that year, made the all-NBA first over him and had coaches around the league saying he was the best center in the league.

Parish said that Ewing "is a better player today because he has variety of shots, just doesn't throw the fadeaway jumpshot, he gives you the jump hook and his spin move on the baseline is the toughest thing for me to guard" (so this isn't exactly the fadeaway jumpers all game long offensive version of Ewing we remember most). From what I've read guys say about him, he took a big leap in his post game that season but declined as the 90s went on because his knees got worse and worse (and of course he aged, he was in his 30s during '92-'94...and consequently shot jumpers wayyyyyy more often), and as a result so did his efficiency. Even in something like FT shooting, it's way above his career average and his best year ever. He is doing a lot of heavy lifting offensively...must be turning the ball over a lot like he always did, but nope, while putting up the scoring numbers he did, he also posted the third best TOV% of his career. It's not like Ewing is inexperienced here either, he is 27-28 which is usually when players peak so career trajectory wise, it makes sense.

Knicks were still above average defensively considering the following things: a rookie head coach (Stu Jackson, fired 15 games into next season...and only coached one other team after that, the 6-33 Grizzlies), the second best defender on the team missing 21 games, a bad defensive backcourt particularly when Kiki joins the team. I would say he's making pretty good impact here (and we know he can probably make a lot more if he is on a championship caliber team where he doesn't have to score as much). This is one of the great interior defenders of all time, he didn't learn defense when he was 30 years old just like KG didn't magically learn to play defense when he joined the Celtics. His comparison was Bill Russell coming out of college, he was seen as one of the finest defensive talents ever. The questions weren't "can he defend?" but "can he add enough to his post game?" (and he did in 1990). In terms of interior defense, he's ones of the best ever, anything you threw around the basket was going to get challenged, no easy baskets even it meant you put him on a poster. He's second in the league in blocks behind Hakeem, I know averages aren't everything but this isn't Javale McGee we are talking about, but a fundamentally sound defensive player, who plays great post defense and whose block averages reflect his ability to absolutely lock down the paint. I'm going to guess a better moving version of the guy who was anchoring historic defenses a year and a half later was still pretty damn effective on defense. Seems like a reasonable conclusion.

Regarding the Ewing Theory. It refers to the mid/late 90s version of Ewing (in his mid 30s) who is 5+ years away from the year in question here and a CLEAR step down offensively. Even if it were true, it's not very relevant. It's like using Kobe's impact last couple of years to define his impact in '08.

One thing I kind of wish there was more of an argument for was D-Rob (who I think went a few spots too high) vs. Ewing. Would people really take '95 D-Rob in a playoff series over '90 Ewing? Has D-Rob ever taken over offensively for his teams in the playoffs like that? Could D-Rob give the bad boy Pistons defense 45 point game and then come back and drop 30 points in the second half of the next game? And don't forget the intangibles, Ewing was intimidating on the court, a better leader, a guy who has an impact over the entire mentality of the team. I think a great argument I read for D-Rob was that he'd be a great second banana offensively on a championship team but would still be the best overall player on the team...could the same thing not be said about '90 Ewing?

Some context around the 1990 Knicks: The Knicks started out 34-17 before making the Strickland trade. Then finished the season 11-20 for a combination of reasons. I wish I had game 3 of the Celtics series on my computer because Peter Vecsey does a decent job in a halftime segment of showing all the chemistry issues the Knicks had in the last couple of months of the season (these issues were why Knicks were given no chance to beat the Celtics). From making the Strickland trade, to Mark Jackson getting booed on the court and benched for 33 year old Cheeks, to Oakley fracturing his left hand and missing games, to Kiki V coming back and joining the team. These are a LOT of lineup changes for a team to endure mid-season, Knicks had a different starting PG, a different starting PF, a different starting SF (all of whom were defensive downgrades) in the last month of the season than they did when they were winning and putting up one of the best records in the league. I don't think it's a coincidence how the team performance changed so much just as the Knicks began encountering instability in their lineup. Unfortunately this stretch thwarted Ewing's MVP campaign as well (he was in the convo with Magic, Barkley, MJ for it). That was a 50+ win team disguised by the issues at the end of the season, so I would say Ewing was doing a great job of getting the best out of what he was given.

Some posts here seem to be have no sense of context surrounding his season, no analysis of his game (probably haven't bothered to watch any games), just going off a very very superficial analysis of "let me check PER and team defensive rating" and draw conclusions. This type of analysis is only going to produce outrageous statements such as "90 Malone was better than Ewing" or that Ewing "wasn't even on par with Dwight".

This is a peak project, I have a feeling people are letting their bias from mid/late 90s Ewing (who I have issues with offensively too) cloud their judgement on how good he was this year. I had a similar bias, but then I began watching his games from that season (about 15 or so) and what I'm seeing a dominant defender (his defensive versatility is better here than later in the 90s, my one gripe defensively would be that he was more prone to foul trouble this season than he would be later) with an offensive package like we've never seen Ewing put together at any other point of his career.

Why was he so much better offensively? As I've been mentioning, he had more variety in his offensive game, this was something everyone in the league was talking about. He went from being a predictable offensive player who was easy to game plan for, to being a lot more well rounded who mixed up and expanded his scoring repertoire. He was better at creating space on his shots, got that extra bit of separation he wasn't quite getting later as the years went on and a result he was having a lot of success as a one on one scorer in the post. He was at his physical peak in the NBA, insane stamina, a lot more athletic, moved better, had a bit more spring in his legs, which naturally allowed him to have a better conversion rate around the basket. His aggressiveness is completely different, he wasn't content to bail you out with fadeaways all game, he attacked the defense more often ever and consequently posted the best FTA numbers of his career (combined with a career best FT% which further raised his efficiency). His passing also took a big leap that year. While he wasn't Shaq or prime Hakeem, he was competent at reading doubles, this is another observation that is obvious to me from watching games and also reading/listening to what people around the league were saying.

This isn't a guy who saw an increase in his averages because he just upped his numbers and feasted on bad defenses either (like say D-Rob in '94), he was lighting up everyone. Here he is putting up 41/15 on Eaton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O45_E9hkgLk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Here is the game where he put up 45/16 against the best defensive team in the league: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoPOSrHEgHk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. His offensive numbers against good defensive teams/centers were very good over the course of the entire season.

Here's an article midway through the season (when Knicks were 25-10) talking about Ewing's amazing improvement on offense and how surprised everyone was by how much he improved:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123089/1/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some things which stand out:

"But what the NBA is seeing these days, and is likely to be seeing through a good bit of the next decade, is much, much more. Some of the old images of Ewing are dated. He has buried them under an avalanche of soft, turnaround jump shots. "The book on him always was, Make him shoot over you, make him earn it," says Boston's backup center, Joe Kleine. "Well, now he's earning it." The power, the intimidation, the fearlessness are still there, but so are grace and finesse and economy of movement, terms previously associated with Houston's Akeem Olajuwon, Ewing's yardstick through most of the '80s, and San Antonio rookie David Robinson, the only other NBA center currently mentioned in the same breath with Ewing and Olajuwon."

Ewing's play has been an even more important component of New York's success. "He might be the best in the game right now," Los Angeles's Mychal Thompson told the New York Daily News after Ewing scored 29 points in a 115-104 loss on Dec. 3. "He and Magic [Johnson] are shoulder to shoulder."

"I know what people are saying now," says Jazz coach Jerry Sloan, "but when he came out of college, I don't recall anybody thinking he would score like this."

"I worked on some things this summer, just like I always do. I wanted to get better on coming into the lane with my left hand, and I've done that. I'm getting to the foul line more [his eight attempts per game are about two more than last season], and that's helped my scoring. But I haven't changed my jump shot. It just got better.

Ewing gradually improved under Pitino, but only recently has the whole package been unwrapped. It reveals an agile seven-footer whose turnaround jumper is accurate up to 20 feet; a heady player who discourages double-teaming with canny passes; an outstanding athlete who has somehow figured out the exotic fast-break passing strategies of point guards Mark Jackson and Rod Strickland, both of whom never make a simple move when 13 complicated ones will do; and a defensive intimidator whose 3.7 blocks per game at week's end were second only to Olajuwon's league-leading 4.2.

''He has taken his game to another level,'' Johnson continued, ''a level I've never seen him play at before. He's dominating offensively and defensively, but he's also making the right plays at the right time. He's leading his team, as opposed to before, when it seemed he'd just as soon let somebody else lead. That's the real mark of an MVP.''

[mischievous]

Curry is getting really overrated right now. He's a great player but you have to understand team composition around him. Curry is playing on a STACKED roster. Tons of good defenders, great spacing, excellent off-ball guys, which don't even need the ball to make high impact.

This. This is what Curry supporters generally sweep under the rug, or just make an attempt to make his cast look worse than it really was.

How would Curry be viewed if he was on a bad/mediocre team?

[bastillon]

Almost forgot. Some guy was calling me out in the last thread, arguing that Parish had excellent stats in that series. As you can see in the video above, Ewing was mainly guarding McHale. While McHale had good stats overall in the series (22 ppg at 60% FG), he didn't when he was guarded by Ewing. But you have to watch the tape to know that sort of things. When you're implying that Ewing was getting run over by Parish, whom he didn't even guard, it's hard to even respond to that sort of nonsense. Just watch the games, and that comment makes no sense whatsoever. You have to know the matchups during the course of the series to criticize a player for his allegedly poor defense.

[GSP]

When where talking about west' defense compared to Kobe's doesn't Bill Russell hold a lot more weight than Doc Rivers who says a lot of thing to inspire his team/exaggerate the strength of his enemies.

Furthermore if people were arguing Russell in on account of his defense being so far ahead of the scale than any modern big we've nowadays. Isn't it possible that west had more perimeter impact then than players today.

Popovich called Kobe the best defender in the game around 2006 or 2007.

I agree with Quotatious on this though. Unfortunately unless we somehow get access to alot of tape from that time we simply wont be able to know how good Jerry was on defense Weve all heard the stories, the opinions from players, coaches etc. for Jerry. There still isnt proof like with Russells defense. Weve heard the same narratives for Kobe. Kobe has the allD teams as well even made teams in 2011 and especially 2012.........Lets also not forget how many times Kobe finished in top 10 Dpoy voting, including many top 5s and even as high as 3.

[bastillon]

When where talking about west' defense compared to Kobe's doesn't Bill Russell hold a lot more weight than Doc Rivers who says a lot of thing to inspire his team/exaggerate the strength of his enemies.

Furthermore if people were arguing Russell in on account of his defense being so far ahead of the scale than any modern big we've nowadays. Isn't it possible that west had more perimeter impact then than players today.

Popovich called Kobe the best defender in the game around 2006 or 2007.

I agree with Quotatious on this though. Unfortunately unless we somehow get access to alot of tape from that time we simply wont be able to know how good Jerry was on defense Weve all heard the stories, the opinions from players, coaches etc. for Jerry. There still isnt proof like with Russells defense. Weve heard the same narratives for Kobe. Kobe has the allD teams as well even made teams in 2011 and especially 2012.........Lets also not forget how many times Kobe finished in top 10 Dpoy voting, including many top 5s and even as high as 3.

C'mon now. Kobe was a terrible defender in 2006. His inconsistency was way too high to make good impact. Pop can't be treated seriously in his interviews because he trolls all the time. Everybody knows that.

[bastillon]

Ballot 1: Stephen Curry 2015

Ballot 2: Patrick Ewing 1990

Ballot 3: Jerry West 1966

Been voting Curry and Ewing for a few threads. I prefer West over a player like Wade because of spacing reasons.

A note about Jerry West - a TS% like .573 is more impressive in 66 than it would be in 2015. League average TS% in 2015 is .047 higher than in 66. West's .573 also lead the whole league in TS%. Efficiency wise I think it's fair to say West is closer to Curry and Durant than the raw stats say

How do you view Kobe vs. West specifically? I feel like Kobe has everything that West has skillset-wise, except he does it better. Realy surprised that Kobe is getting so downvoted in this project. I remember that when I joined realGM back in 2008 or so, Kobe was unanimously regarded as top-2 SG all-time over West, and by a considerable margin. Even West-supporters like TrueLAFan rated Kobe higher IIRC. Kobe's advantages in terms of athleticism/slashing/post-up/footwork are insane.

[urnoggin]

1st ballot: Stephen Curry 2015
2nd ballot: Kobe Bryant 2008
3rd ballot: Dwyane Wade 2009

Explained the Kobe pick in the previous thread. As for Curry and Wade they've already been discussed over and over by everyone else so there's nothing I really need to go over about them.