Peaks Project #19

[urnoggin]

1st ballot: Kobe Bryant 2008
2nd ballot: Chris Paul 2008
3rd ballot: Jerry West 1966

Went with Paul at 2nd because I really appreciate how well-rounded his game was that year. Elite playmaker (most important part of being a PG), above average defense, above average finishing, above average shooting. Doesn't have GP's defense, Penny's finishing, and Nash's shooting but he isn't close to "slacking" in any area.

West is hard to gauge because he played in a different era so it's difficult to project how his defense and scoring compares to more modern players. But he dominated his era and put up stats that are very similar to the elite players of today. Plus, everything that his peers said about him make it seem like he was an amazing defender and a deadly shooter and scorer.

[Dr Spaceman]

Ballot:

1. Jerry West 1969
2. Steve Nash 2007
3. Kevin Durant 2014

Paul and Barkley are also excellent candidates for the third spot.

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 66 West

Surprised at this point to see west this far apart from oscar. I've seen the argument for oscar being a better defender or being better at leading an offense, and I did have him ranked higher. I just don't see what west did during the same era as that much less impressive (and yes, it's not like he isn't getting any support here at 19, just thought he'd be in by now).

Ranks in a 9 team league can only be looked at so much, but the 66 lakers ranked 3rd in SRS, 1st in offense and 5th in defense. Outside of a 31 yr old baylor who only played in 65 games, there wasn't a ton of talent filling out that roster. The other main contributors were leroy ellis, rudy larusso and a rookie gail goodrich. West really carried that team.

Spoiler:

Going with West here sort of in the same vein as magic / bird putting him after oscar. West was a master volume scorer on great efficiency (especially for his era), not to mention an excellent playmaker, falling somewhere between a PG and SG throughout his career.

RS: 31.3 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.1 APG, 47.3% FG, 86% FT (12.4 FTAs per game), 57.3% TS (+8.6% vs. league avg), .256 WS/48

PS: 34.2 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.6 APG, 51.8% TS, 87.2% FT, 58.1% TS, .237 WS/48

He had the poor luck of coming up during the russell celtics era, losing to them several times in the finals. He would lead the lakers to the finals in 66, again losing in game 7 by 2 to the celtics in heart breaking fashion. This would come after putting up 33.9 PPG, 6.4 RPG and 5.1 APG on 51.5% from the field and 87.1% from the line in the series.

Oscar and West may be the 2 most complete players left on the board. And purely as a fan, I think they'd really thrive in today's game, and it would be a pleasure to watch.

1966 Finals Highlights

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf0F9QupxFY[/youtube]

Ballot #2 - 90 Ewing

Lending some support for Ewing here. Being at his peak athletically in 1990, Ewing was a workhorse on both ends of the floor. His combination of volume scoring on great efficiency and ability to anchor a defense should be worthy of this range. Led the 13th ranked SRS knicks to a 1st round upset of the 8th ranked SRS celtics in the first round. Would end up being eliminated by the eventual champion pistons, put still put up a valiant effort in the series, with 27.2 PPG. 9.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.2 BPG on 56% TS. Pistons also ranked 2nd in defense that season. If only Riley got his hands on Ewing a few years earlier...

Ballot #3 - 93 Barkley

Spoiler:

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP1MV2rSxIU[/youtube]

[trex_8063]

Calling it for West.
Thru post #43:

Jerry West - 25
Patrick Ewing - 17
Kobe Bryant - 12.5
Tracy McGrady - 12
Kevin Durant - 11
Chris Paul - 7.5
Moses Malone - 4
Charles Barkley - 3
Steve Nash - 3
Karl Malone - 1

Will have #20 up shortly.....

[SideshowBob]

Can you expound on 08 for Cp3s peak if u dont mind? Is it similar reasoning for 09/10 Lebron over 13? BTW i mean in comparison to like 15 Cp3

I actually think he was better in the 09 RS and even better the 10 RS before injury, but dropped off/got injured in the PS and the rest of the 10 RS.

I prefer those years over post 2010 injury - I think he was just better at putting pressure on the defense. IMO 08 or 09 Paul on the 12-15 Clippers would have been just as, if not more successful. Slightly weaker shooting, but he was quicker, craftier and the rest of his abilities were about the same (playmaking, probing, pace control, etc. were already all-time level in his NO years).

[ThunderDan9]

Guys like Penny Hardaway over Karl Malone? Karl surely gets forgotten here, doesn't he...

[Clyde Frazier]

Guys like Penny Hardaway over Karl Malone? Karl surely gets forgotten here, doesn't he...

Well, Malone did get 1 vote to Penny's 0 in this thread. Take a look at Penny's 95-96 season specifically. It's at least worthy of discussion: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html

[GSP]

Can you expound on 08 for Cp3s peak if u dont mind? Is it similar reasoning for 09/10 Lebron over 13? BTW i mean in comparison to like 15 Cp3

I actually think he was better in the 09 RS and even better the 10 RS before injury, but dropped off/got injured in the PS and the rest of the 10 RS.

I prefer those years over post 2010 injury - I think he was just better at putting pressure on the defense. IMO 08 or 09 Paul on the 12-15 Clippers would have been just as, if not more successful. Slightly weaker shooting, but he was quicker, craftier and the rest of his abilities were about the same (playmaking, probing, pace control, etc. were already all-time level in his NO years).

What about defensively? I think Clippers Cp3 was clearly better than Hornets on that end.

[ThunderDan9]

Guys like Penny Hardaway over Karl Malone? Karl surely gets forgotten here, doesn't he...

Well, Malone did get 1 vote to Penny's 0 in this thread. Take a look at Penny's 95-96 season specifically. It's at least worthy of discussion: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I just saw this post:

My overall ballot going forward:

1. West 1966
2. Kobe 2008
3. Nash 2005
4. McGrady 2003
5. Penny 1996
6. Durant 2014
7. Paul 2008 or 2015
8. Ewing 1990

Which would mean Karl Malone is not in the Top27... (or even in the Top30, as Barkley isn't on the list either) which is strange to me as he was a 2-times MVP (if we are nit-picking, and say his MVP's weren't justified, and use the RPOY-voting instead, he was still 3-times (!!!) the 2nd best player in the league, all three times behind... you know, the GOAT..., and 7-times altogether in the Top3).

He isn't even talked about, meanwhile stranger and stranger names come up (as in the case of Penny Hardaway, or really, even Nash or Paul or Ewing).
I also think that players like Kobe and Karl get a bit underrated here even on the fact alone that they do not have an outlier one season you can point at as their definitive peak.

If it's an all-time draft with all the players at their best version (= peak), 18 players already taken, I'm pretty sure I'm taking a good look at Karl Malone.