PSG4 | Los Angeles vs Charlotte | 10/14/15 | 5:00AM PDT | NBA TV

[Ranma]

I'm still a fan of having multiple ball-handlers, just not ball-dominators. While it doesn't address our defense at SF, I'm hoping Doc trades for Eric Gordon this season by dumping Crawford to Philly and Stephenson to New Orleans. The Sixers have a lot of cap space to facilitate a 3-way deal but a lot of bodies already on the roster. They'd likely also want an incentive for their participation, but I believe we're capped out of giving up 2nd-round selections at the moment. Maybe CJ Wilcox will do.

Crawford would help the 76ers tank for 2015-16 while the Pelicans would almost be at the salary cap and receive tax savings in swapping Stephenson for Gordon's contract. EJ is on the last year of his deal for New Orleans while LS's deal has an option for next year. However, the Pels want to compete this season and believe they are on the verge, so they likely wouldn't be inclined to take on the disruptive presence of Born Ready, especially since that could take shots away from Anthony Davis and interrupt ball-handling responsibilities with Jrue Holiday and Tyreke Evans also on the roster.

Still, I'm hoping circumstances will allow for such consideration. While I'm dreaming, I'd love to also dump Austin Rivers to the Sixers for Kendall Marshall. In any case, Gordon also likes to handle the ball a lot and has health concerns himself, but he'd be a great fit either as a starter or as the lead guard off the bench even at SG. While he doesn't have length, he was a good defender, but I'm not sure if his body allows for that now, especially since he had issues with muscle cramps while he was with us.

This would allow for Brendan Dawson to step up off the bench at SF. While it would be questionable to count on the rookie, especially in Doc's system, I'd rather have Dawson's energy than Stephenson's ball dominance. We'd also have to keep Luc Mbah a Moute in this unlikely scenario.


Update: At least another Gordon is now available.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/654398857229398016[/tweet]

[LACtdom]

A few points I've noticed:

We have length which I'm very thankful for. The downside is that Doc abuses the 'small ball' lineups which kind of negates any length advantages.

As good as CP is at setting up his team mates, if the receiver can't knock down open jumpers then I'd prefer some more selfish play with a two man game from CP/BG PnR.

DJ is young and athletic. He wants a bigger role on offense. I would stagger some minutes so he plays with the bench unit. He would be our anchor while our starters are resting and he will be rewarded with offensive opportunities. I'd much rather a DJ post play over a Jamal or Lance nothing play.

I would like to see Doc emphasize more fundamental things like rebounding and rotating on defense. I don't know if it's just a lack of communication or what but we can't just ignore our defense.

[Diop]

awful all the way around. pp needs to start. the second unit looks like a street ball pick up game. there is no discipline what so ever.

that was Lance's game all over last year, there was a reason he finally got relegated to standing in the corner and shutting up.

also as much as he apprently wasn't a locker room cancer he often looks like a petulant child on the court, yelling at team mates etc.

its going to be a heck of a ride this year for your 2nd unit

[nickhx2]

yeah a few preaseason games in and i'm already tired of lance's on court body language lol.

honestly i don't care too much about him being and1ish with the bench unit. i think he's doing some good things. it's just masked because doc rivers is a MORON and he thought that it was unimportant to outfit the second unit with actual plays.

furthermore, he is not going to fit with jamal crawford, and maybe not likely austin rivers at least with how they're playing. they need to change some stuff real fast.

[Wammy Giveaway]

I honestly think the only way the Clippers improve is if Doc reunites with Tom Thibodeau. The defensive intensity and hustle is just not there. He tries and tries and tries to motivate, but the players are just too easily gullible. Make a mistake on the court, or a false assumption about their opponent, and it sinks hard into their minds until the game is over, resulting in a loss. Thibs just brings out the best of his players night in and night out, as evidenced by his tenure with the Bulls. Just like the farm trade for two superstars in Boston that automatically gave them a championship in the 2007-08 season, Thibodeau replacing Vinny Del Negro catapulted Chicago into the Eastern Conference Finals instantly for the 2010-11 season.

There is a rumor that Doc plans to talk to Thibs immediately about joining his staff when the Clippers return from China. We don't know if Doc has the power to get Thibs back, but we do know these:

1. Paul Pierce ensures Doc Rivers a conference finals berth. Together, they've been to three conference finals in nine seasons.
2. Tom Thibodeau ensures Doc Rivers a NBA Finals appearance. Together, they've made the Finals two out of three season.
3. Pierce made a prayer to the Buddha statue during their trip to China, wishing for an automatic championship.
4. If the Clippers win a title, Paul Pierce will retire instantly. If they fail in the playoffs, Doc has hinted on record he'll break up the core of the team, possibly the friendship of Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan.

Doc and Pierce are pulling all the stops to make sure that every path ends in a Larry O'Brien trophy. I just hope their ultimatums, lucky charms and security blankets work the same way it did for Dallas when Jason Terry tattooed a trophy on his arm for 2011.

[Ranma]

I didn't think there was a legitimate shot of the Clippers getting Tom Thibodeau to join the coaching staff for this season, but he's still not a head coach anywhere and has been seen at practices for teams like the Spurs and Clippers will visit the Clippers upon their return from China. Thibs is still getting paid by the Bulls, so the Clips may have to give some compensation to hire him in any capacity, but I would think offsetting some of the money they're still paying him would be enough. Chicago's front office executives have shown themselves to be petty, though.

Thibodeau to the Clippers would obviously be a wonderful addition and it makes perfect sense for the organization with its focus on getting a championship. It's just a matter of what Thibodeau himself wants to do and possibly what the Bulls will allow for. The organization also leaked that 3 starters were unhappy with him, which is a little suspect given how hard the players played for him and the aforementioned reputation of the Bulls' front office.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/dan_bernstein/status/604005635630342144[/tweet]

[og15]

I'm still a fan of having multiple ball-handlers, just not ball-dominators. While it doesn't address our defense at SF, I'm hoping Doc trades for Eric Gordon this season by dumping Crawford to Philly and Stephenson to New Orleans. The Sixers have a lot of cap space to facilitate a 3-way deal but a lot of bodies already on the roster. They'd likely also want an incentive for their participation, but I believe we're capped out of giving up 2nd-round selections at the moment. Maybe CJ Wilcox will do.

Crawford would help the 76ers tank for 2015-16 while the Pelicans would almost be at the salary cap and receive tax savings in swapping Stephenson for Gordon's contract. EJ is on the last year of his deal for New Orleans while LS's deal has an option for next year. However, the Pels want to compete this season and believe they are on the verge, so they likely wouldn't be inclined to take on the disruptive presence of Born Ready, especially since that could take shots away from Anthony Davis and interrupt ball-handling responsibilities with Jrue Holiday and Tyreke Evans also on the roster.

Still, I'm hoping circumstances will allow for such consideration. While I'm dreaming, I'd love to also dump Austin Rivers to the Sixers for Kendall Marshall. In any case, Gordon also likes to handle the ball a lot and has health concerns himself, but he'd be a great fit either as a starter or as the lead guard off the bench even at SG. While he doesn't have length, he was a good defender, but I'm not sure if his body allows for that now, especially since he had issues with muscle cramps while he was with us.

This would allow for Brendan Dawson to step up off the bench at SF. While it would be questionable to count on the rookie, especially in Doc's system, I'd rather have Dawson's energy than Stephenson's ball dominance. We'd also have to keep Luc Mbah a Moute in this unlikely scenario.


Update: At least another Gordon is now available.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/654398857229398016[/tweet]

Yea, definitely, that would be awful for the Pelicans to add Stephenson when they also have Tyreke Evans, oh wow, just bad, lol

[nickhx2]

i'd love gordon back but that's just not happening lol.

whatever the case with stephenson, he's someone that needs to be worked with or worked around in case he's not panning out. he can make a difference if up to par, and if not his contract flexibility is awesome for us. and if not for us, as a trade chip for someone looking to get free for next year's bonanza.

but as far as working around him, i think clearly that means dropping the dead weight (crawford) and adding balance to our second unit.

[Wammy Giveaway]

Thibs is still getting paid by the Bulls, so the Clips may have to give some compensation to hire him in any capacity, but I would think offsetting some of the money they're still paying him would be enough.

What kind of compensation could there be had? If it involves a draft pick, a gag order would be in place, prohibiting the Clippers and Bulls from trading with each for a full year. A guy like Taj Gibson would be off limits. Or, suppose Derrick Rose gets traded and subsequently bought out, and decides he wants to come to the Clippers to play for Doc. If Thibs is part of the Clippers coaching staff, would Rose entertain the thought of seeing him again? Those are all hypothetical questions, but we have to understand the ins and outs of compensations trades, with the Clippers already having experience in the matter with the coaching trade for Doc Rivers. If a draft pick is involved, they'll have to choose between the former coach or a player like Gibson. You can't have both.

[Ranma]

Yea, definitely, that would be awful for the Pelicans to add Stephenson when they also have Tyreke Evans, oh wow, just bad, lol

i'd love gordon back but that's just not happening lol.

Yeah, I figure such a deal doesn't make sense for anyone else taking on either Crawford or Stephenson except for the Sixers, but I figured I'd articulate my dream scenario for this season, anyway.

What kind of compensation could there be had? If it involves a draft pick, a gag order would be in place, prohibiting the Clippers and Bulls from trading with each for a full year. A guy like Taj Gibson would be off limits. Or, suppose Derrick Rose gets traded and subsequently bought out, and decides he wants to come to the Clippers to play for Doc. If Thibs is part of the Clippers coaching staff, would Rose entertain the thought of seeing him again? Those are all hypothetical questions, but we have to understand the ins and outs of compensations trades, with the Clippers already having experience in the matter with the coaching trade for Doc Rivers. If a draft pick is involved, they'll have to choose between the former coach or a player like Gibson. You can't have both.

I don't think there would be restrictions such as a trade embargo placed between the two teams by the league since Thibodeau isn't currently coaching the Bulls whereas Doc technically was still the Celtics' coach. Boston may have been looking to move beyond Doc, anyway, but they could have argued that they were prepared to have him continue to finish out the rest of his contract as its coach. That doesn't apply to the Bulls.

I'm not sure if the Bulls own Thibs' rights since they are still paying him on the contract he signed with them, but I think they have some say as to where he can go. I would think so as to prevent him from spilling trade secrets to a rival organization beyond the non-disclosure agreement. On the other hand, I would think that preventing him from seeking employment elsewhere, especially as a head coach would be anti-competitive and cause a problem with the labor board and Thibs' agent. Do NBA coaches have a union?

Whatever the case, the protocol I'm aware of is that Thibs would be allowed to get a coaching job elsewhere with his new salary offsetting whatever is left of the Bulls' remaining salary obligations. That's what encouraged Sterling to hire Del Negro from Chicago since the Bulls were still paying a part of his salary. However, like you implied, Thibs is a high-profile coach along the lines of Doc so there would be a bigger fight from the Bulls, but the situations aren't exactly the same.

It would be unreasonable for Chicago to demand a 1st-round pick for Thibs since he's not even coaching them right now and they would save money by letting him go elsewhere. Plus, the Clips are restricted from dealing any immediate 1st-rounders for the time being, which would be an overpay for any assistant/associate coach who could bail for a head coaching position at any given moment.

[LACtdom]

I'm a bit over the Clippers' attitude of 'damn lance sucks, let's ditch him'. How about our coaching staff work their asses off and make it work out or he will be another one of those players who sucked as a Clipper but then the year after he leaves, he shows skill. I honestly believe that if we could become more Memphis-like with our bench unit (ugly but defensively gritty), we could go a long way to making this team work.

Also I wouldn't mind giving Wilcox and Dawson more minutes in pre-season games just for the experience.

[nickhx2]

i think the thing that bothers me the most is that we just saw lance have what looked like one of the worst seasons ever, and a lot of that had to do with ill-fit.

yet here we are and doc has decided that putting him in another situation with other ball-dominant guards who can't shoot is somehow going to yield different results.

it's like the war's over before it even started.

[og15]

i think the thing that bothers me the most is that we just saw lance have what looked like one of the worst seasons ever, and a lot of that had to do with ill-fit.

yet here we are and doc has decided that putting him in another situation with other ball-dominant guards who can't shoot is somehow going to yield different results.

it's like the war's over before it even started.

Doc has constantly had this issue of overestimating his ability to make players work and coaching up players to be more than they are. Wanting better defense and signing Mullens and Jamison with the idea he'd make Mullens work on defense. Signing Hawes and planning to use him in the defensive system where he's running out to the perimeter and having to recover back to the paint, etc, etc

He needs the check and balance of a GM that is above him in terms of player operations to save him from himself.

The bench guys can work, but not as a 5 man unit bench but in different staggered lineups. Still you might need to move one of your guards as it still doesn't make too much sense with all the guards.

[nickhx2]

agree.

reminds me of this marvel comic. basically there's this villain, and everyone eventually realizes with horror that he's attained ultimate power and that he's already won. there's nothing they can do about it. literally the only way he can be stopped is the one in infinity chance he decides that he wants to be stopped (which, ironically, is what ends up happening).

that's pretty much what doc is right now. the only way he can be brought down is the ultimate longshot he decides he shouldn't be making these kinds of decisions, which i find to be near impossible. or with ballmer kicking him to the curb, which i also find to be near impossible, if only slightly less.

it's really depressing.

[Wammy Giveaway]

There may be one answer to Doc giving up power: an ejection. He is so afraid of getting thrown out of a game that if it were to happen to him, he thinks his career would be over. When Vinny Del Negro was coaching, he never did anything to get himself thrown out. He didn't stand up to his players to convince the seriousness of taking competition seriously and winning a championship (Gregg Popovich epitomizes this). Some fans once joked he cared more about his good looks and character - I once considered it serious as it tied in to his job security.

Let me reiterate to make this perfectly clear: this has nothing to do with proving you are a tough player. You are not punching a player in the face in the name of entertainment. The objective of an ejection is to display your frustrations. Yes, you will be looked at as a sore loser, but rather that than having to sit on the bench, watching your team get obliterated by every title defender, upcoming contender, middling playoff team, lottery team, and lottery teams with the confidence of a title contender. My interpretation of the ejection is so that they realize all their mistakes have culminated into the referees not wanting you playing anymore. You can't always have your coach "bail you out."

Remember Game 6 against the Grizzlies in the 2013 NBA Playoffs? Chris Paul got ejected for the first time in his career. He hated how the Clippers were getting walloped by Memphis. He was not going to sit by and watch the game get uglier than what it was already.

What about Christmas day versus the Warriors in the 2013-14 season? Blake Griffin was forcibly ejected on a Mark Jackson scheme. Griffin cares too much about his nice-guy image; getting ejected from a game for the sake of it went against his every fiber. You could say he had the same views as Doc Rivers, only worse: an ejection would mean the loss of his endorsement deals, an instant trade, and the end of his NBA tenure. He would overcome the ejection with three games of 30+ PTS, including a 40+ outing against the Heat.

This is why I think, for the Clippers to really prove themselves as a title contender, they must be willing to sacrifice their very images by getting ejected, even if it means being forced to serve a suspension. They must face their fears if they truly want to be among the greats.

A championship is bred of trial and error. Without a challenge, there can be no competition. Clippers do have an enemy to face besides the other 29 teams: themselves.

[Ranma]

agree.

reminds me of this marvel comic. basically there's this villain, and everyone eventually realizes with horror that he's attained ultimate power and that he's already won. there's nothing they can do about it. literally the only way he can be stopped is the one in infinity chance he decides that he wants to be stopped (which, ironically, is what ends up happening).

that's pretty much what doc is right now. the only way he can be brought down is the ultimate longshot he decides he shouldn't be making these kinds of decisions, which i find to be near impossible. or with ballmer kicking him to the curb, which i also find to be near impossible, if only slightly less.

it's really depressing.

[Ranma]

Quoted for truth:

Doc has constantly had this issue of overestimating his ability to make players work and coaching up players to be more than they are. Wanting better defense and signing Mullens and Jamison with the idea he'd make Mullens work on defense. Signing Hawes and planning to use him in the defensive system where he's running out to the perimeter and having to recover back to the paint, etc, etc

This just brings to mind a passage of the Grantland article I posted in the Austin Rivers thread:

Jonathan Abrams, Grantland.com (10/14/15)

Austin’s veteran teammates taught him how to play freely under Doc, whose stern approach to the game sometimes conflicts with the style and flair that Clippers like Jamal Crawford — and Austin Rivers — often bring to the game. The sight of Doc shaking his head on the sideline after he watches Crawford shake and bake on the court is familiar to Clippers players and fans alike. “Coach is all over him,” Austin said. “He’ll look at the bench and just be like [shrugs his shoulders]. So when you start to think like that, it just makes the game more fun. And when you have fun, you play better. When you play better, you get your confidence. When you get your confidence back, it starts becoming consistent. That’s all it is. It’s not rocket science.”

Ball in the Family


This further exemplifies Doc Rivers of engaging in more talking than actual doing. He's hard on the players in chewing them out yet he'll just shrug his shoulders and let them still do what they're doing without pulling them out of the game.

I'm a bit over the Clippers' attitude of 'damn lance sucks, let's ditch him'. How about our coaching staff work their asses off and make it work out or he will be another one of those players who sucked as a Clipper but then the year after he leaves, he shows skill. I honestly believe that if we could become more Memphis-like with our bench unit (ugly but defensively gritty), we could go a long way to making this team work.

Yes, it's early and, to be honest, I'm not overly concerned with the performance on the China trip as that was more of a vacation than a preseason game. However, I'm tired of hearing talk about how the coaching staff will improve our defense when they haven't actually done it, marginal improvements to DeAndre Jordan aside. As I referenced above, Doc talks a good game but he hasn't implemented a good one.

As og15 pointed out, Doc keeps taking for granted that he'll make misfits work in his scheme. Sure, Stephenson is a better defender than Mullens, Jamison, Hawes, and whomever but that bar is not exactly high enough to limbo under. It's time to see results. Do I expect them to be the best defense by preseason? Of course not, but we have to at least see signs of improvement or even hints of a cohesive scheme.

[nickhx2]

hah good catch. yeah that quote by abrams pisses me off.

you're the head coach. act like one and pull him, wtf.

[LACtdom]

I've always given Doc benefit of the doubt with defense because we've had a short team with poor individual defenders for a while now but with the length and athleticism of Rivers, Stephenson, Johnson, etc, it really is time to start seeing some results. I keep wishing we could get Thibs to come and run our team ragged and build a defensive identity. I know the season is long but I'm disappointed in our lack of improvement on D over the pre-season.

[og15]

Yea, that quote was quite interesting to me too, I shook my head when I read it.

...your last paragraph Ranma is exactly what I'm referring to. For the past two seasons with Doc it's always been this aura of "don't worry Doc will figure it out", and I have not really bought into that even in the early stages and am not buying into it now.

If Doc wanted a 5 man bench unit, there are some pieces that make sense, but as a whole unless we're pulling off some magic, these current guys are not very good. Essentially Lance / Pierce / Smith make sense, but Rivers and Crawford are questionable, and Aldrich can make sense if you actually use him. Let's hope he doesn't do 5 man bench though.