Next Offseason (and Beyond)...

[dakomish23]

You think he's worth a max deal?

Most definitely worth a max deal.
And fits with our youth movement..

These days everybody gets a max deal. Guys who aren't even scorers get max deals so if they can, why shouldn't Beal? Besides, if Im correct his next contact is a mini max, not your typical 20 mill+ max contact. I already went over this with Monroe and I guess Ill have to get into it with him. Maxs aren't the same for everybody. Focus on the number rather than the title.

I mean, if I told you Im paying someone the max and it ended up being 8 mill would you care? As far as the talent goes Beal is a up and coming player who has already given a solid level of production in relation to his age. I'd pay him what he wants

Who's focusing on the title? That's your assumption. I don't care if they call it the worst player alive contract. All about the $ for me. It's not anywhere near 8 million, it's 21-23 million according to the OP.

Is this guy worth that money?? Idk at this point, though there's no doubt in my mind that he gets close to that number from someone if not WAS because the SG position is relatively weak in the NBA right now.

No need to get into cap rate rising etc. I don't think this guy is worth the hype he gets - at least not yet.

[Sark]

Durant IMO can absolutely play SG in this league. He is quick enough to guard 2s and has the range offensively to play the position
Instead of thinking about how we would be mismatched think about how other teams will be mismatched defensively.

If you go w/
Robin
KP
Melo
Durant
Grant

someone will have a huge mismatch in the post all day long.

OMG JIZZ TO THAT LINEUP

KD is not playing the 2 guard.

[Nazrmohamed]

Most definitely worth a max deal.
And fits with our youth movement..

These days everybody gets a max deal. Guys who aren't even scorers get max deals so if they can, why shouldn't Beal? Besides, if Im correct his next contact is a mini max, not your typical 20 mill+ max contact. I already went over this with Monroe and I guess Ill have to get into it with him. Maxs aren't the same for everybody. Focus on the number rather than the title.

I mean, if I told you Im paying someone the max and it ended up being 8 mill would you care? As far as the talent goes Beal is a up and coming player who has already given a solid level of production in relation to his age. I'd pay him what he wants

Who's focusing on the title? That's your assumption. I don't care if they call it the worst player alive contract. All about the $ for me. It's not anywhere near 8 million, it's 21-23 million according to the OP.

Is this guy worth that money?? Idk at this point, though there's no doubt in my mind that he gets close to that number from someone if not WAS because the SG position is relatively weak in the NBA right now.

No need to get into cap rate rising etc. I don't think this guy is worth the hype he gets - at least not yet.

Well I wasn't aware that his max was that high. In any case though your last couple words set the tone for me. At least not yet. So when should we offer one then? And I've thought slot about this.
The knocks are constantly giving aging or in prime(soon to be out of it) players the max. I just think that if there's anyone to give it to after everything we've learned, it's the guy who will be his best while he's on your roster. I think Beal is entering that time. Why not do it now.

Now if you don't believe he'll ever be worth it, spend your money elsewhere. I just look at his stats, improvement year over year and age and think he'll be worth it. Especially when you factor in my overlying motive of wanting to slowly build a team whose best players are all within some range of where or rookies are.

Another option is let's say Durant wants to go to Washington and we just aren't getting him period. Well hey, if he and Melo wanna team up down there maybe they can trade us Beal and a pick or Beal and Porter since they won't be able to afford to have it all. Now we got a team full of young talented players. Im not a capologist but maybe someone or they're could draw up a feasible scenario

[canibaljay]

That's sort of my plan. Maybe cuz my mind can't fathom Durant but I think if we attack Beal right away we can steal him.

You think he's worth a max deal?

Most definitely worth a max deal.
And fits with our youth movement..

And his max won't be the same max as the higher priced players.

[Jeffrey]

Hypothetical Question: If Derrick Williams is playing really well and we are just within reach of the last playoff spot... do you trade him for cap relief and a 1st round pick with heavy restrictions. should Jax pull the trigger? This goes with Affalo as well.

Getting a low first rounder in the future is not worth missing the playoffs and giving up a top 10 pick this year / having less to sell FAs on in 2016

Even if Derrick Williams traded and freeing up more space for Kevin Durant sweepstake?

[dakomish23]

Hypothetical Question: If Derrick Williams is playing really well and we are just within reach of the last playoff spot... do you trade him for cap relief and a 1st round pick with heavy restrictions. should Jax pull the trigger? This goes with Affalo as well.

Getting a low first rounder in the future is not worth missing the playoffs and giving up a top 10 pick this year / having less to sell FAs on in 2016

Even if Derrick Williams traded and freeing up more space for Kevin Durant sweepstake?

I think u wait till u know ur going to get him before youake those type of moves. If he finishes the season well why couldn't we get that same theorized draft pick in the offseason?

I guess we cross that bridge when we get to it

[dakomish23]

These days everybody gets a max deal. Guys who aren't even scorers get max deals so if they can, why shouldn't Beal? Besides, if Im correct his next contact is a mini max, not your typical 20 mill+ max contact. I already went over this with Monroe and I guess Ill have to get into it with him. Maxs aren't the same for everybody. Focus on the number rather than the title.

I mean, if I told you Im paying someone the max and it ended up being 8 mill would you care? As far as the talent goes Beal is a up and coming player who has already given a solid level of production in relation to his age. I'd pay him what he wants

Who's focusing on the title? That's your assumption. I don't care if they call it the worst player alive contract. All about the $ for me. It's not anywhere near 8 million, it's 21-23 million according to the OP.

Is this guy worth that money?? Idk at this point, though there's no doubt in my mind that he gets close to that number from someone if not WAS because the SG position is relatively weak in the NBA right now.

No need to get into cap rate rising etc. I don't think this guy is worth the hype he gets - at least not yet.

Well I wasn't aware that his max was that high. In any case though your last couple words set the tone for me. At least not yet. So when should we offer one then? And I've thought slot about this.
The knocks are constantly giving aging or in prime(soon to be out of it) players the max. I just think that if there's anyone to give it to after everything we've learned, it's the guy who will be his best while he's on your roster. I think Beal is entering that time. Why not do it now.

Now if you don't believe he'll ever be worth it, spend your money elsewhere. I just look at his stats, improvement year over year and age and think he'll be worth it. Especially when you factor in my overlying motive of wanting to slowly build a team whose best players are all within some range of where or rookies are.

Another option is let's say Durant wants to go to Washington and we just aren't getting him period. Well hey, if he and Melo wanna team up down there maybe they can trade us Beal and a pick or Beal and Porter since they won't be able to afford to have it all. Now we got a team full of young talented players. Im not a capologist but maybe someone or they're could draw up a feasible scenario

I agree with the premise on when you pay a player. Get him on the rise and let him grow into the contract. Definitely not something this organization is associated with. The last rookie we extended? Charlie Ward.

I just don't know if he's THE GUY worth 4 yrs 80 mil. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a clear win for this team which is dying for legitimate starting talent.

[BugginOut]

I posted this last season, but for the love of God I hope Phil does not max Bradley Beal. I don't know how the hype for this kid has remained strong for so long, but he is literally the most overrated SG in the league right now.

By stats and the eye test, Beal is a average player who has never had a PER over 14.3 and has not improved in a single category since his rookie year. He is an average defender and is average in every single category except 3Pt shooting and even that is a false positive. Yes he shoots 40% from 3 but he does not nearly attempt enough 3PA per game (4.4) to make him elite in that area. He hasn't even average 2 3's a game in a single season, which is something that Hardaway has been doing since his rookie year in almost 10 less minutes. And his shooting from other areas on the floor is horrible. As much as you guys hate on JR Smith he has had a higher TS% than Beal every season Beal has been in the league for the last 3 years. EVERY SEASON, even that one season 2 years ago where JR shot under 40% for almost half the year. In a league where SG is arguably the weakest position, we should not be maxing out a kid who would not even rank in the top 10 of shooting guards this year.

James Harden
Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler
Gordon Hayward
Victor Oladipo
Goran Dragic
Wesley Matthews
Danny Green
DeMar DeRozan
Dwyane Wade
JJ Redick
Tyreke Evans

Are all better than Beal. Also I would argue that specialist players like Tony Allen, Kyle Kover and Manu Ginobili bring better value to a team.

DO NOT SIGN BEAL. Let the Wizards Max him and cripple their team when they realize this kid is not the 2nd coming of Kobe.

[AmazingJason]

I posted this last season, but for the love of God I hope Phil does not max Bradley Beal. I don't know how the hype for this kid has remained strong for so long, but he is literally the most overrated SG in the league right now.

By stats and the eye test, Beal is a average player who has never had a PER over 14.3 and has not improved in a single category since his rookie year. He is an average defender and is average in every single category except 3Pt shooting and even that is a false positive. Yes he shoots 40% from 3 but he does not nearly attempt enough 3PA per game (4.4) to make him elite in that area. He hasn't even average 2 3's a game in a single season, which is something that Hardaway has been doing since his rookie year in almost 10 less minutes. And his shooting from other areas on the floor is horrible. As much as you guys hate on JR Smith he has had a higher TS% than Beal every season Beal has been in the league for the last 3 years. EVERY SEASON, even that one season 2 years ago where JR shot under 40% for almost half the year. In a league where SG is arguably the weakest position, we should not be maxing out a kid who would not even rank in the top 10 of shooting guards this year.

James Harden
Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler
Gordon Hayward
Victor Oladipo
Goran Dragic
Wesley Matthews
Danny Green
DeMar DeRozan
Dwyane Wade
JJ Redick
Tyreke Evans

Are all better than Beal. Also I would argue that specialist players like Tony Allen, Kyle Kover and Manu Ginobili bring better value to a team.

DO NOT SIGN BEAL. Let the Wizards Max him and cripple their team when they realize this kid is not the 2nd coming of Kobe.

And1 to this. I've watched him play and I don't get the hype. He doesn't really do anything well. I think I'd rather have Batum at a cheaper price.

[BugginOut]

These days everybody gets a max deal. Guys who aren't even scorers get max deals so if they can, why shouldn't Beal? Besides, if Im correct his next contact is a mini max, not your typical 20 mill+ max contact. I already went over this with Monroe and I guess Ill have to get into it with him. Maxs aren't the same for everybody. Focus on the number rather than the title.

I mean, if I told you Im paying someone the max and it ended up being 8 mill would you care? As far as the talent goes Beal is a up and coming player who has already given a solid level of production in relation to his age. I'd pay him what he wants

Who's focusing on the title? That's your assumption. I don't care if they call it the worst player alive contract. All about the $ for me. It's not anywhere near 8 million, it's 21-23 million according to the OP.

Is this guy worth that money?? Idk at this point, though there's no doubt in my mind that he gets close to that number from someone if not WAS because the SG position is relatively weak in the NBA right now.

No need to get into cap rate rising etc. I don't think this guy is worth the hype he gets - at least not yet.

Well I wasn't aware that his max was that high. In any case though your last couple words set the tone for me. At least not yet. So when should we offer one then? And I've thought slot about this.
The knocks are constantly giving aging or in prime(soon to be out of it) players the max. I just think that if there's anyone to give it to after everything we've learned, it's the guy who will be his best while he's on your roster. I think Beal is entering that time. Why not do it now.

Now if you don't believe he'll ever be worth it, spend your money elsewhere. I just look at his stats, improvement year over year and age and think he'll be worth it. Especially when you factor in my overlying motive of wanting to slowly build a team whose best players are all within some range of where or rookies are.

Another option is let's say Durant wants to go to Washington and we just aren't getting him period. Well hey, if he and Melo wanna team up down there maybe they can trade us Beal and a pick or Beal and Porter since they won't be able to afford to have it all. Now we got a team full of young talented players. Im not a capologist but maybe someone or they're could draw up a feasible scenario

What stats are you looking at? Last year he went from scoring 17.1PPG to 15.3PPG and his efficiency slightly increased. Other than that all his other stats look exactly the same. What about Beal makes you think he has that "IT" factor other than a couple games in the playoffs last year.

Also I just want to mention that Beal plays with one of the best facilitators in the game and he still isn't that efficient. How do you think his shooting would look when he isn't getting as many easy shots.

[JBreezeNY]

I posted this last season, but for the love of God I hope Phil does not max Bradley Beal. I don't know how the hype for this kid has remained strong for so long, but he is literally the most overrated SG in the league right now.

By stats and the eye test, Beal is a average player who has never had a PER over 14.3 and has not improved in a single category since his rookie year. He is an average defender and is average in every single category except 3Pt shooting and even that is a false positive. Yes he shoots 40% from 3 but he does not nearly attempt enough 3PA per game (4.4) to make him elite in that area. He hasn't even average 2 3's a game in a single season, which is something that Hardaway has been doing since his rookie year in almost 10 less minutes. And his shooting from other areas on the floor is horrible. As much as you guys hate on JR Smith he has had a higher TS% than Beal every season Beal has been in the league for the last 3 years. EVERY SEASON, even that one season 2 years ago where JR shot under 40% for almost half the year. In a league where SG is arguably the weakest position, we should not be maxing out a kid who would not even rank in the top 10 of shooting guards this year.

James Harden
Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler
Gordon Hayward
Victor Oladipo
Goran Dragic
Wesley Matthews
Danny Green
DeMar DeRozan
Dwyane Wade
JJ Redick
Tyreke Evans

Are all better than Beal. Also I would argue that specialist players like Tony Allen, Kyle Kover and Manu Ginobili bring better value to a team.

DO NOT SIGN BEAL. Let the Wizards Max him and cripple their team when they realize this kid is not the 2nd coming of Kobe.

I just figured people didn't watch his game because I was dying laughing reading the posts about going after him & giving him a max.

The Wizards have been my second team to watch for quite some years now even before Wall was on the team, so folks talking Beal up like he's this great option will be severely disappointed if he was on this team.

[Clyde_Style]

This is the logic I see espoused all the time:

Almost anyone can get a max contract now, therefore we should be prepared to give the max to [INSERT NAME HERE]

This leads to poor decisions.

Phil may be more prudent than many fans. I think he will be. He surely exhibited savvy value shopping skills so far.

If the market inflates contracts, it doesn't automatically justify giving every Mutt & Jeff that money. Great clubs hold out and only give max contracts in two situations.

Either you give a max to a free agent that will put you over the top. In the past, the Knicks would give out fat contracts like candy before they had established a competitive base.

Or you give out a max to your own home grown player who became a perennial All-Star. You retain them because they've proven themselves already ON YOUR TEAM and losing them would be a major setback.

I see people talk about maxing out players who do not fit either criteria and that is always a mistake, a mistake made for 15 years. If Phil is changing the culture already, how is it some fans are still fantasizing about deals as if this club is still stuck in 2008?

[dakomish23]

So what is the price people would feel comfortable with paying him? I think I'd try to keep it 4 yrs 70 at most. No way they don't match it so it's a moot point.

[nykballa2k4]

His salary is that of a good backup point guard. Which is what he is really. If he has another bad season and is injured the whole time then yeah, we'll have to give something up to get rid of him, but if he has a decent season, and with the cap spike, his salary isn't really all THAT bad.

We would stretch his contract and it wouldn't hurt us that bad if it really came down to it.

I've never had strong hate like some for Jose, He has some really decent quality to his game (3pt, passing, Ft, basically a heady Pg) but the game is just to fast for him now as well as the position. Hi salary isn't as bad as made out to be well when the cap rises but his weakness's far outweigh his price.

the problem I see is who would take him? even if we sweetened the deal with a future pick or Early etc. not many teams. Portland, jazz?

Calderon and Early for Booker and Burke works

Calderon and Early for Brandon Jennings works (coming off achilles tear, probably not gonna be that effective this year and their only other pg is Steve Blake)

Not that I am wishing for this but someone is going to get a hurt and a team will have a desperate need for a point guard and Calderon is likely to be the best guy "on the market". I dont think he's really on the market, and I think he is a good point guard for us right now. If Grant could take the starting spot I think Calderon would be a great backup for us to come in and manage the game a little bit with some of the other second unit players. His salary isn't awful and if he's the difference between getting Durant or Horford or not then we can stretch his contract after the year. I wouldn't give up anything more than Early or a 2nd to move his contract though.

catch 22 scenario. A team looking to add Calderon will be a team with a weakness at back up point guard who can afford his salary for the remainder of the years. The only way he is inciting is if Knicks are playing well and he is a part of that. If we are playing well with Calderon, it may look bad for us to take that step backward (trade Calderon for nothing if we are in the playoff picture). Obviously if we are bad, likely he is playing poorly as well, thus no re-sale value.

[Dr. Detfink]

I've been preaching about mediocre players demanding a MaxCat since BEFORE last season began. So many delusional Knick fans in this forum were running threads about the new cap and how the Knicks were going to be able bring in all these great players to bring in Melo.

I predicted the Knicks would strike out on top free agents, months before the season ended. Well, we know how last Summer went. EVERY ONE of those top tier players (and some mid-tier players) turned their nose up at New York and went elsewhere.

I also think Melo doesn't want to share the spotlight. He doesn't want help. All that talk, he was going to talk to other players and try to convince them to come to the Knicks? That's complete B.S.

Melo don't talk to anyone but his inventment group: Lebron and Chris Paul.

Again, the Knicks need to get Younger AND CHEAPER. I like Phil's approach. Use late round picks for college players who have more heart than talent. Scout over seas and bring in guys who have something to prove and not these premadonnas (see John Wall).

[Clyde_Style]

I've been preaching about mediocre players demanding a MaxCat since BEFORE last season began. So many delusional Knick fans in this forum were running threads about the new cap and how the Knicks were going to be able bring in all these great players to bring in Melo.

I predicted the Knicks would strike out on top free agents, months before the season ended. Well, we know how last Summer went. EVERY ONE of those top tier players (and some mid-tier players) turned their nose up at New York and went elsewhere.

I also think Melo doesn't want to share the spotlight. He doesn't want help. All that talk, he was going to talk to other players and try to convince them to come to the Knicks? That's complete B.S.

Melo don't talk to anyone but his inventment group: Lebron and Chris Paul.

Again, the Knicks need to get Younger AND CHEAPER. I like Phil's approach. Use late round picks for college players who have more heart than talent. Scout over seas and bring in guys who have something to prove and not these premadonnas (see John Wall).

Am I correct that you've adjusted your stance a bit? Before, I recall you hating the off-season precisely because Phil did not land a big fish, but I don't remember you praising him for his approach. My impression was you thought Phil was a failure. Perhaps the way some guys look in pre-season changed your mind.

I'm a fan of what he did. I think a max signing in all likelihood is wasted on this season anyway. This is a great season to get this new crew familiar with one another because most of the ones that matter will be back next year. Then it will have much more impact if there is a major signing next season.

And there will actually be a reason for them to come here. Finally.

[FutureKnicksGM]

Aye everyone on the Fournier bandwagon.

I think Afflalo walks, Jose still here, D-Will not sure.

Anyway I say we go after KD, Horford, Conley and strike out.

We get Batum to play the 2. And Fournier to play 6th man. Maybe resign Galloway on a small deal. And Phil signs his new Kyle O'Quinn with whatever cap we have left.

Lopez/O'Quinn
Porzingis/D-Will or FA.
Melo/Batum/Thanasis
Batum/Fournier
Grant/Jose/Galloway?

2017 Offseason:

We draft a SF with our 2017 first.

We go after Steph and Russ. We strike out.

We sign Jrue and Taj Gibson. Or dark-horse CP3 opts out and wants to play with his buddy Melo out East.

Lopez/O'Quinn/Willy
Porzingis/Taj
Melo/2017 first
Batum/Fournier
Jrue/Grant

[ozwizard8]

I posted this last season, but for the love of God I hope Phil does not max Bradley Beal. I don't know how the hype for this kid has remained strong for so long, but he is literally the most overrated SG in the league right now.

By stats and the eye test, Beal is a average player who has never had a PER over 14.3 and has not improved in a single category since his rookie year. He is an average defender and is average in every single category except 3Pt shooting and even that is a false positive. Yes he shoots 40% from 3 but he does not nearly attempt enough 3PA per game (4.4) to make him elite in that area. He hasn't even average 2 3's a game in a single season, which is something that Hardaway has been doing since his rookie year in almost 10 less minutes. And his shooting from other areas on the floor is horrible. As much as you guys hate on JR Smith he has had a higher TS% than Beal every season Beal has been in the league for the last 3 years. EVERY SEASON, even that one season 2 years ago where JR shot under 40% for almost half the year. In a league where SG is arguably the weakest position, we should not be maxing out a kid who would not even rank in the top 10 of shooting guards this year.

James Harden
Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler
Gordon Hayward
Victor Oladipo
Goran Dragic
Wesley Matthews
Danny Green
DeMar DeRozan
Dwyane Wade
JJ Redick
Tyreke Evans

Are all better than Beal. Also I would argue that specialist players like Tony Allen, Kyle Kover and Manu Ginobili bring better value to a team.

DO NOT SIGN BEAL. Let the Wizards Max him and cripple their team when they realize this kid is not the 2nd coming of Kobe.

SG position is weak in todays nba. That being said i disagree your ranking.

-goran dragic is pg for sure. g.hayward's best position is SF.
-jj.redick cant defend anyone without d.jordan/griffin helping. t.evans cant shoot so i wont put those in front of B.Beal.
+you forgot k.middleton. he's arguably better sg than Beal. Affalo might be in that list if he plays good this year.

In that list Wes. Matthews injuries red sign for giving max.
danny green cant create his own shot and he's not even 3rd option for his team.
Derozan %fg is low, he never pass the ball. his game drops severely in playoffs.

my SG list.(keep in mind; age, injuries, post-season performance, teams scoring option, creating own shot, defense, winner)
James Harden
Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Dwyane Wade
Wesley Matthews/Danny Green/DeMar DeRozan/JJ Redick/Eric Gordon/Tyreke Evans

for me he's top 5 in SG position.
i accept that SG position is weak in todays NBA but i'll give MAX contract to 22 year old top 5 SG.
C.Parsons getting MAX contract even though he's not a top 15 SF in the league but Beal is certainly top 10 and imo top 5 SG so he'll get his max.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bealbr01.html
check his playoff stats. his numbers didnt get worse. he's reliable offensive weapon and decent defender for post-season.
keep in mind Wizards coaching isnt good.
they play with 2 big men who cant stretch the floor+j.wall cant shoot. when b.beal gets the ball 3 of 4 team mates cant shoot 3.
spacing issue decreased his fg%.
b.beal would thrieve in triangle. he's not kobe but legit 2nd option for jis team. he's young so that contract would be tradeable.

if we can get Durant thats better but i'll be pleased signing b.beal.
2015 FA was good because we needed depth in bench but next year we should go and sign a max-cat.

[stuporman]

At the point I trust Jax, he's shown he has an eye for talent and fit....

I'm just glad posters have no say whatsoever in it, some of the ideas I read in these forums are just turble.

[j4remi]

Beal had a banged up season last year, but he's young and has all the tools to do well with this squad. He's near the top of my list for sure at the moment. I think SG will be our most likely need (if AA does well he's out, if he opts in we might need an upgrade). Doesn't Derozan have an opt-out? I'd give him a look for the right price.

Conley seems like a perfect fit, but he's an unlikely get and we may want to save the space he'd cost if Grant is as good as our fanbase believes.

Batum had a really rough season, but before last season he would have been close to the top of my targets too. I've always been a fan of his.

Crabbe would be a nice bargain bin get. Nicholson has always intrigued me, shows some nice skills once in a while but I didn't see much improvement over time.

Of course this is all way too soon. We may just want to spend a big chunk of cap keeping guys on roster who surprise or we may figure out an unexpected need. Add to that, the FA picture could shift and change our outlook on options (ie: if Durant becomes disgruntled or something like that) and it's just way too soon to really sweat this. But it is nice to have some players to watch on other teams and consider how they might fit in with out guys.