Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[bwgood77]

I'm curious to learn if anyone else agrees:

I think Horny's on the hot seat. If he starts the season slow, with this group, I think he's in real trouble. This is a talented, balanced group. If performances like we've seen in the preseason extend into the regular season, I think you have to point the finger at the coach.

One piece of evidence I think worth taking notice of. We don't play well until everything breaks down. We run our system, we fail. We get desperate, we break free of the system, we come back. And it was that way last year as well (at least, until the end of the season, when no come backs occurred). More evidence: Our play after timeouts are subpar, and our play at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters is subpar. I like Horny as much as anyone else, but the evidence is mounting that this guy is not doing a good job.

Well he's in a lame duck situation since he is in the last year of his contract, so they are expecting him to succeed. But the real issue is that we simply don't have as much talent as at least eight other teams in the west. Particularly when the league is moving toward a spacing and shooting league and we don't have much for shooters.

Hornacek overachieving in year one may be his downfall though. Same thing happened with D'Antoni and then expectations were always just sky high for what you can squeeze out of a group.

It doesn't make it easier on a coach either when the pieces are constantly shuffling. Most of teams that have been in the playoffs have had continuity, at least for the most part.

I just don't know what people really expect, from a talent standpoint, for Hornacek to get out of this team? What in your eyes is failing?

He can't win with some people. If young guys don't play enough, they should play more, but when they do and the team looks discombobulated because of the inexperience, he can't coach.

I think most understand he is a good coach though, so if McD lets him go he is REALLY going to start feeling the heat. He's already made enough questionable moves.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm curious to learn if anyone else agrees:

I think Horny's on the hot seat. If he starts the season slow, with this group, I think he's in real trouble. This is a talented, balanced group. If performances like we've seen in the preseason extend into the regular season, I think you have to point the finger at the coach.

One piece of evidence I think worth taking notice of. We don't play well until everything breaks down. We run our system, we fail. We get desperate, we break free of the system, we come back. And it was that way last year as well (at least, until the end of the season, when no come backs occurred). More evidence: Our play after timeouts are subpar, and our play at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters is subpar. I like Horny as much as anyone else, but the evidence is mounting that this guy is not doing a good job.

Well he's in a lame duck situation since he is in the last year of his contract, so they are expecting him to succeed. But the real issue is that we simply don't have as much talent as at least eight other teams in the west. Particularly when the league is moving toward a spacing and shooting league and we don't have much for shooters.

Hornacek overachieving in year one may be his downfall though. Same thing happened with D'Antoni and then expectations were always just sky high for what you can squeeze out of a group.

It doesn't make it easier on a coach either when the pieces are constantly shuffling. Most of teams that have been in the playoffs have had continuity, at least for the most part.

I just don't know what people really expect, from a talent standpoint, for Hornacek to get out of this team? What in your eyes is failing?

He can't win with some people. If young guys don't play enough, they should play more, but when they do and the team looks discombobulated because of the inexperience, he can't coach.

I think most understand he is a good coach though, so if McD lets him go he is REALLY going to start feeling the heat. He's already made enough questionable moves.

But what evidence do we really have that he's a good coach? The only time we did well is when we weren't even trying to do well!!

As I said, there's mounting evidence that he's not a very good coach (and I note, not to be combative, but you didn't address any of the three specific pieces of evidence I cited). We think he's a good coach because he's a clear speaker, a reasonable person, and, from all reports, a nice guy. That's just not very good evidence.

I don't think a lack of shooting is the explanation. I think we have plenty of talent. I don't think we're playing with intuition and aggression. Do you see intensity and confidence? I don't. We'll see.

[bwgood77]

I'm curious to learn if anyone else agrees:

I think Horny's on the hot seat. If he starts the season slow, with this group, I think he's in real trouble. This is a talented, balanced group. If performances like we've seen in the preseason extend into the regular season, I think you have to point the finger at the coach.

One piece of evidence I think worth taking notice of. We don't play well until everything breaks down. We run our system, we fail. We get desperate, we break free of the system, we come back. And it was that way last year as well (at least, until the end of the season, when no come backs occurred). More evidence: Our play after timeouts are subpar, and our play at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters is subpar. I like Horny as much as anyone else, but the evidence is mounting that this guy is not doing a good job.

Well he's in a lame duck situation since he is in the last year of his contract, so they are expecting him to succeed. But the real issue is that we simply don't have as much talent as at least eight other teams in the west. Particularly when the league is moving toward a spacing and shooting league and we don't have much for shooters.

Hornacek overachieving in year one may be his downfall though. Same thing happened with D'Antoni and then expectations were always just sky high for what you can squeeze out of a group.

It doesn't make it easier on a coach either when the pieces are constantly shuffling. Most of teams that have been in the playoffs have had continuity, at least for the most part.

I just don't know what people really expect, from a talent standpoint, for Hornacek to get out of this team? What in your eyes is failing?

He can't win with some people. If young guys don't play enough, they should play more, but when they do and the team looks discombobulated because of the inexperience, he can't coach.

I think most understand he is a good coach though, so if McD lets him go he is REALLY going to start feeling the heat. He's already made enough questionable moves.

But what evidence do we really have that he's a good coach? The only time we did well is when we weren't even trying to do well!!

As I said, there's mounting evidence that he's not a very good coach (and I note, not to be combative, but you didn't address any of the three specific pieces of evidence I cited). We think he's a good coach because he's a clear speaker, a reasonable person, and, from all reports, a nice guy. That's just not very good evidence.

I just don't think you can blame the shooting. I think we have plenty of talent. I don't think we're playing with intuition and aggression. We'll see.

Well his first year we were projected to win 17 games and won in the upper 40s, and every player on that team played better than they had ever played before. How can he not be responsible with that? The chemistry worked well. Then we decided to add another pg and screw with chemistry. Players were unhappy because of their new roles, and some blame Hornacek for taking Dragic off the ball or whatever, but I don't know the dynamic between the FO and what was promised to certain players by them as far as minutes go.

Disgruntled players due to FO decisions can't really be blamed on Hornacek IMO. Last year was terrible make up of team and then a shake up of the roster followed by injuries. I don't think you can really judge much of Hornacek's ability based on the shuffling roster of last year and then injuries. Despite that we were hanging around until Knight and our front court got decimated to close the season.

Of course now we have the Kieff situation so I don't know how that will impact things, but I will give this team some time to gell before calling for Hornacek's head.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

If the team doesn't gel, will you call for Horny's head?

I will render judgment around the 12-15 game mark. If we suck at that point, I'll be ready to let him go.

[bwgood77]

If the team doesn't gel, will you call for Horny's head?

I will render judgment around the 12-15 game mark. If we suck at that point, I'll be ready to let him go.

I typically don't call for coach's heads unless I know there is talent not being utilized properly. I may not feel this team has quite as much talent as you do though. On paper, I don't think our team should make the playoffs.

But I also don't think the team is well put together for the state of the current nba. We lack shooting and teams need shooting. We lack premier players and stars so I don't know what I expect. I think if Hornacek does a REALLY good job we could compete for the 8 seed.

Of course many people who complain about Hornacek also complain we are a treadmill team. I am not sure if they want him gone because he is too good or if they think we should be a top 3 seed and he is vastly underachieving by finishing 9th or 10th.

Of course if we bring in a new coach, there is a reset, but we have our core under contract for awhile so we are stuck with most of our players for quite a while.

[letsgosuns]

The Suns have been in a terrible position for five years now. Not good enough to actually make the playoffs, but too good to not get a top pick except one year. Fighting for the playoffs while rebuilding at the same time is incredibly difficult. You really should choose one or the other. If you fight for the playoffs, the young players' development will suffer. If you go completely young, you will be sacrificing the current season for the future.

The issue is whether or not players like Len, Warren, Booker, Goodwin, and whoever else are good enough to build around. The verdict is out on them. I do know one thing, I have zero faith that a Bledsoe/Knight backcourt is good enough to make the playoffs. To me this season is already doomed and I am not a pessimistic person. I always try to look at the positives but I truly do not see it. Like I said earlier, neither of those two guards are good shooters. They are penetrating guards with low shooting percentages. They are also undersized. In addition, Bledsoe and Knight have never proven to make the players around them better. That is what true stars do.

This team is currently filled with mediocre players and has a coach that I do not believe in. Hornacek might have been a great player, played for Jerry Sloan, is knowledgeable, and also a nice guy, but that does not make him a good coach. Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time yet he has proven he has no idea how to build a team. Sometimes what you do as a player does not carry over into other aspects of the game. Taking all this into account, this is sadly the least excited I have ever been for the NBA season to start.

[Cutter]

I think a person could argue that Hornacek has overachieved a bit given the talent he has been surrounded with. If you want a coach gone, you have to cite who you would replace him with. What available coach could come in and get more out of these players than Horny?

[drewsprocket]

Horny is fine as a coach. Of course if someone comes avail more proven with beginner teams then great but that'll be nice to look at at the end of the season.
We have a strange roster that needs spacing to operate. Run and gun is there only hope


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[Frank Lee]

The notion that we are a talented well balanced team eludes me.

We are such a work in progress that it will likely take half a season for the rotations to sort out. This team looks to be built from discarded parts. Y'all optimistic ones can toot the positive tunes all you want. Chances are, this is a crash and burn season we are facing. Neither PG is a true facilitator, and they both need the ball. We still have a malcontent PF, a marginal SF who gets by on sheer grit, and an old man in the post. I'd just as soon give most of the minutes to the bench.

About the only thing I look forward to is trading the MoBro, and ???? It is bound to become necessary and may be McDos last gasp.

[bwgood77]

The notion that we are a talented well balanced team eludes me.

We are such a work in progress that it will likely take half a season for the rotations to sort out. This team looks to be built from discarded parts. Y'all optimistic ones can toot the positive tunes all you want. Chances are, this is a crash and burn season we are facing. Neither PG is a true facilitator, and they both need the ball. We still have a malcontent PF, a marginal SF who gets by on sheer grit, and an old man in the post. I'd just as soon give most of the minutes to the bench.

About the only thing I look forward to is trading the MoBro, and ???? It is bound to become necessary and may be McDos last gasp.

I think there are only a handful of posters who feel we have a ton of talent and that Hornacek is the reason the team isn't competing for a championship. Most feel we are stuck in the middle, but that perhaps Chandler and vet leadership will help the young guys mature faster, but this isn't going to happen overnight.

Regardless of everything regarding talent and coaching, this team just needs to shoot 3s non stop in practice.

[TeamTragic]

If the team doesn't gel, will you call for Horny's head?

I will render judgment around the 12-15 game mark. If we suck at that point, I'll be ready to let him go.

If he cannot make an impact with current talent then he probably doesn't deserve a new contract. Thoughts?

[Mulhollanddrive]

Our problem is that in the past 18 months we've been just trying to get back to season 1.

The Dragic situation was our own doing. Not replacing Frye also. Still question marks on those 2 positions.

Having said that this is a superstar league, you can't compete without an MVP candidate, so whether making 8th seed compared to 10th is actually a huge deal, I'm not sure.

[NTB]

http://www.nba.com/suns/video/teams/suns/2015/10/19/1445271698598-adam-silver.mp4-66011

Have anyone seen this?

[Revived]

I think a person could argue that Hornacek has overachieved a bit given the talent he has been surrounded with. If you want a coach gone, you have to cite who you would replace him with. What available coach could come in and get more out of these players than Horny?

Its not the talent, its the system. I want someone to come in with a system that doesn't have two plays in its playbook..."run the fast break" or "pick and roll".

Hornacek knows no other plays other than fast break points. That's not fair to the players when their screwed if they can't out run the opponent every single time down the court because their coach doesn't know anything else.

Here's what Durant said about their new coach Donnovan:

Durant: Billy Donovan Running More Sets, More Movement In Offense

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/239559/Durant-Billy-Donovan-Running-More-Sets-More-Movement-In-Offense

Does Hornacek have a clue what ball movement is? I'm serious. We have been the among the bottom 5 every year under his tenure for assist/to ratio and even assists in general. And sets....I know for a fact that the only set Hornacek knows is a high pick and roll and fast break, that's it.

Not to mention his sick obsession of dual PGs is growing thin with some fans as well.

[Revived]

However, there are still areas of concern regarding Knight. While his opponents' 3-point percentage last season was better than Bledsoe's at 35.1 percent, he allowed opponents to shoot a horrific 71.6 percent around the basket. This is likely due to his lack of strength in fending off the offensive player once they reach the hoop, and at under 200lbs, Knight is just as prone to being bullied under the basket this season. Once again, the chore will fall to Chandler and Len down low to compensate for Knight's diminutiveness. Before that point, though, it will fall on Knight to do everything possible to keep his man in front of him, using his length and quickness to harass his opponent rather than trying to out-muscle him.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/10/17/9559407/Phoenix-Suns-starting-lineup-defense-breakdown-chandler-bledsoe-tucker

That's scary. I don't know if Steve Nash was even that bad. He really can't continue to be that much of a liability if he wants to continue starting even though Suns may not have a choice now after giving him that fat extension this summer.

[batsmasher]

http://www.nba.com/suns/video/teams/suns/2015/10/19/1445271698598-adam-silver.mp4-66011

Have anyone seen this?

He seems like such a bloody nice guy. Great commish so far too.

[Frank Lee]

However, there are still areas of concern regarding Knight. While his opponents' 3-point percentage last season was better than Bledsoe's at 35.1 percent, he allowed opponents to shoot a horrific 71.6 percent around the basket. This is likely due to his lack of strength in fending off the offensive player once they reach the hoop, and at under 200lbs, Knight is just as prone to being bullied under the basket this season. Once again, the chore will fall to Chandler and Len down low to compensate for Knight's diminutiveness. Before that point, though, it will fall on Knight to do everything possible to keep his man in front of him, using his length and quickness to harass his opponent rather than trying to out-muscle him.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/10/17/9559407/Phoenix-Suns-starting-lineup-defense-breakdown-chandler-bledsoe-tucker

That's scary. I don't know if Steve Nash was even that bad. He really can't continue to be that much of a liability if he wants to continue starting even though Suns may not have a choice now after giving him that fat extension this summer.

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

[jcsunsfan]

Our problem is that in the past 18 months we've been just trying to get back to season 1.

The Dragic situation was our own doing. Not replacing Frye also. Still question marks on those 2 positions.

Having said that this is a superstar league, you can't compete without an MVP candidate, so whether making 8th seed compared to 10th is actually a huge deal, I'm not sure.

Memphis might be the exception to that. I am not sure MGasol would be considered a superstar on most other teams. They have just seemed to have the right combo of players to compete.

[jcsunsfan]

However, there are still areas of concern regarding Knight. While his opponents' 3-point percentage last season was better than Bledsoe's at 35.1 percent, he allowed opponents to shoot a horrific 71.6 percent around the basket. This is likely due to his lack of strength in fending off the offensive player once they reach the hoop, and at under 200lbs, Knight is just as prone to being bullied under the basket this season. Once again, the chore will fall to Chandler and Len down low to compensate for Knight's diminutiveness. Before that point, though, it will fall on Knight to do everything possible to keep his man in front of him, using his length and quickness to harass his opponent rather than trying to out-muscle him.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/10/17/9559407/Phoenix-Suns-starting-lineup-defense-breakdown-chandler-bledsoe-tucker

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

If he ends up being that bad, Horny needs to stick to what he says. He needs to pull Knight from the starting line up and play Weems or Booker there instead. Play on the court earns minutes, not payscale.

[bwgood77]

Zach Lowe's league pass rankings:

19. PHOENIX SUNS (30)

Brandon Knight should reinject some of the helter-skelter speed the Suns lost when the Goran Dragic–Eric Bledsoe point guard union disintegrated, and these guys are just generally a happy watch. Jeff Hornacek is willing to run and try unconventional things, and the broadcast team of Steve Albert and Eddie Johnson is a delight — heavy on insight and low-key jokes.

The presence of Tyson Chandler picking-and-rolling should nudge Markieff Morris, a sneaky good passer, into more perimeter playmaking, and T.J. Warren is going to dust fools on old-school backdoor cuts. Mirza Teletovic’s hair is immaculate, Alex Len is playing with more confidence, and P.J. Tucker can defend four positions in a pinch.

The Halloween-y court still stinks, but at least they brought back the sunburst and used that gorgeous trademark purple for the lane markers. Stop it with the black, already.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-annual-nba-league-pass-rankings-part-1-2/