Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right.

If he ends up being that bad, Horny needs to stick to what he says. He needs to pull Knight from the starting line up and play Weems or Booker there instead. Play on the court earns minutes, not payscale.

This is what I'm talking about though. If Knight does well for Milwaukee, but then turns to dust here in Phoenix, should we at least inquire as to whether the problem is the Suns' system? I pose the same question with respect to TJ - if he does nothing for us on offense when we run our plays, but then gets hot when we move away from our system, doesn't that suggest that the system doesn't work particularly well for our players?

Hornacek has also said that "these guys haven't played together enough yet." Well excuuuse me princess, but I thought everyone playing pick up games for a month before the season was worth some weight, and the fact that a lot of these guys have, in fact, played a bunch together was also worth something. After all, it's not like the '13-'14 Suns had played a bunch together before they had their Cinderella season (apparently, the only season worth examining when we're trying to evaluate Hornacek).

I think we all like and respect Hornacek as a person, a player, a manager and a communicator. And I think we're letting that get in the way of evaluating his performance as a coach. We begin the halves badly. We don't get points out of time outs. We lack intensity and focus. We play down to our opponents. Bad defense, but also, now, bad offense. All of these would be points against any other coach, but with this team, we blame all the problems on the players. I think there are a lot of objective indicia of an underperforming coach, and I would have no problem letting Horny go the way of Danny Ainge if we get off to a bad start.

Hell, I'd even consider bringing back the 'stache... Actually, I shouldn't beat around the bush. That would be the first guy I'd call.

[jcsunsfan]

Hell, I'd even consider bringing back the 'stache... Actually, I shouldn't beat around the bush. That would be the first guy I'd call.

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Hell, I'd even consider bringing back the 'stache... Actually, I shouldn't beat around the bush. That would be the first guy I'd call.

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

He did great with the Knicks until Melo showed up. Seems to me that his real weakness is dealing with prima donnas.

"The ball finds energy" seems tailor-made for one TJ Warren.

[Puff]

I think a person could argue that Hornacek has overachieved a bit given the talent he has been surrounded with. If you want a coach gone, you have to cite who you would replace him with. What available coach could come in and get more out of these players than Horny?

Its not the talent, its the system. I want someone to come in with a system that doesn't have two plays in its playbook..."run the fast break" or "pick and roll".

Hornacek knows no other plays other than fast break points. That's not fair to the players when their screwed if they can't out run the opponent every single time down the court because their coach doesn't know anything else.

Here's what Durant said about their new coach Donnovan:

Durant: Billy Donovan Running More Sets, More Movement In Offense

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/239559/Durant-Billy-Donovan-Running-More-Sets-More-Movement-In-Offense

Does Hornacek have a clue what ball movement is? I'm serious. We have been the among the bottom 5 every year under his tenure for assist/to ratio and even assists in general. And sets....I know for a fact that the only set Hornacek knows is a high pick and roll and fast break, that's it.

Not to mention his sick obsession of dual PGs is growing thin with some fans as well.

Amen

As I have said many times before. If you are honest with yourself the Phoenix Suns have not been fun to watch for a while. Quite frankly they have been a horrible watch on most nights since Gentry was fired. What I see of the current team is more of the same.

[Puff]

Hell, I'd even consider bringing back the 'stache... Actually, I shouldn't beat around the bush. That would be the first guy I'd call.

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

[thamadkant]

I paid for premium league pass again for the 4th year in a row and just kind of want the Suns to atleast be entertaining to watch lol.
As some have stated here... Just the lack of a cohesive system is very concerning...

Look at Warriors pre Kerr....

Then Kerr comes along and runs a system that suits their best players skills set.


Im really concern running with 2 PGs when neither have good court vision, arent great shooters, lack elite size etc. Knicks circa Marbury and Francis has shown 2 combo PGs who rely on ball dominance to be productive doesnt work well. Thats the current suns system.
Stop with this KJ and Hornacek combo....Spurs had a much closer comparison back with prime Parker and Ginobili.... And even with Clippers Chris Paul and JJ Reddick... Those teams are much closer to the KJ/Hornacek combo.

Hornacek and KJ worked because of the complimenting skills and high IQ.


Hornacek is also on his last year of his contract... But as some mentioned there is no eye popping candidate to replace him.

[jcsunsfan]

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

He was a total failure with any pg not named Steve Nash.

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

I regard this as accurate.

As I said, I'm willing to give Hornacek 15 or so games to show that he can make this work. But if we look anything like how we've looked so far this preseason, I want to move on. I'd rather not wait the whole season.

[bwgood77]

That is absolute nonsense, as usual.

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

I regard this as accurate.

As I said, I'm willing to give Hornacek 15 or so games to show that he can make this work. But if we look anything like how we've looked so far this preseason, I want to move on. I'd rather not wait the whole season.

So what team do you think you will likely move on to?

[RaisingArizona]

Preseason does not matter. Not one bit. Summer league did not matter. Some of you are about to jump off the wagon before the year even starts lol.

[Revived]

However, there are still areas of concern regarding Knight. While his opponents' 3-point percentage last season was better than Bledsoe's at 35.1 percent, he allowed opponents to shoot a horrific 71.6 percent around the basket. This is likely due to his lack of strength in fending off the offensive player once they reach the hoop, and at under 200lbs, Knight is just as prone to being bullied under the basket this season. Once again, the chore will fall to Chandler and Len down low to compensate for Knight's diminutiveness. Before that point, though, it will fall on Knight to do everything possible to keep his man in front of him, using his length and quickness to harass his opponent rather than trying to out-muscle him.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/10/17/9559407/Phoenix-Suns-starting-lineup-defense-breakdown-chandler-bledsoe-tucker

That's scary. I don't know if Steve Nash was even that bad. He really can't continue to be that much of a liability if he wants to continue starting even though Suns may not have a choice now after giving him that fat extension this summer.

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

That is probably the most disappointing thing. The Bucks knew they weren't gonna resign him, and Knight isn't the type of player that's gonna draw a bidding war, we could have had him in the summer if wanted to.

Everyone kept saying "Oh the Lakers are gonna get a top 3 pick, their awful so that pick will just end up staying with the Lakers".....yea, no. Lakers won't even have a bottom 5 record this season with all the additions they made. They will still be horrible but not awful.

If the 76ers end up drafting someone real good with that pick, Sarver shouldn't think twice of getting rid of McD.

[bwgood77]

That's scary. I don't know if Steve Nash was even that bad. He really can't continue to be that much of a liability if he wants to continue starting even though Suns may not have a choice now after giving him that fat extension this summer.

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

That is probably the most disappointing thing. The Bucks knew they weren't gonna resign him, and Knight isn't the type of player that's gonna draw a bidding war, we could have had him in the summer if wanted to.

Everyone kept saying "Oh the Lakers are gonna get a top 3 pick, their awful so that pick will just end up staying with the Lakers".....yea, no. Lakers won't even have a bottom 5 record this season with all the additions they made. They will still be horrible but not awful.

If the 76ers end up drafting someone real good with that pick, Sarver shouldn't think twice of getting rid of McD.

On the bright side, we only have Knight at $14 million a year for 5 more years.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

What does "as usual" mean? Are you saying my posts are always nonesense? I have never had that accusation made of me in years of posting on message boards.

DA without Nash 202 and 290
DA with Nash 253 and 136

We know what DAntoni is. He is a coach who at one time had a innovative system that focused on offense and very little on defense. He ran a very short rotation and tended to burn his best players out before the playoffs. He refused to take any input on improving the defensive side of the game. His teams were amazingly fun to watch and the basic concept was sound, but Steve Kerr and the Warriors perfected it by combining it with a competent defense.

I regard this as accurate.

As I said, I'm willing to give Hornacek 15 or so games to show that he can make this work. But if we look anything like how we've looked so far this preseason, I want to move on. I'd rather not wait the whole season.

So what team do you think you will likely move on to?

There are very few ways to push my buttons, but suggesting that I am not a fan of this team, or that I could simply become a fan of another team, is one of them. Hornacek may be our coach right now, but between the two of us, I am the only one who has never been in any way associated with another professional basketball team. Eventually, he will go. But I never will.

Next time, be sure to include one of these:

[Damkac]

If Suns won't improve this season (more plays and assists, less isos) then Hornacek needs to go.

Knight is very disappointing so far. Mayby he would play better off the ball as undersized Shooting guard.

Only player who looks good so far is Alex Len.

[bwgood77]

I regard this as accurate.

As I said, I'm willing to give Hornacek 15 or so games to show that he can make this work. But if we look anything like how we've looked so far this preseason, I want to move on. I'd rather not wait the whole season.

So what team do you think you will likely move on to?

There are very few ways to push my buttons, but suggesting that I am not a fan of this team, or that I could simply become a fan of another team, is one of them. Hornacek may be our coach right now, but between the two of us, I am the only one who has never been in any way associated with another professional basketball team. Eventually, he will go. But I never will.

Next time, be sure to include one of these:

Will do. But the way you stated your "move on" is that you would have some input into coaching decisions. So you are saying you would rather the team dump Horny early in the season with only a handful of games when we infused 8 new players (including Knight as he hasn't played more than a handful with the few players that have remained) and go with an interim coach for the rest of the year? That seems like a real recipe for disaster. I think Hornacek should be extended as this team has been a work in progress with moving parts, unprofessionalism, etc, and he needs a tiny bit of continuity to be judged. He had some continuity in year one and did really well.

As Dave King wrote about not long ago, Hornacek:

Led the Suns to an 87-77 record in two seasons, despite having 0 All-Stars to lean on
Took over a 25-win team with little experience, and gave them the blueprint and confidence to be the league's biggest surprise team in 2013-14
Finished second in Coach of the Year award voting in 2013-14
Led the Suns to a top-10 offense the first 1.5 years, before his most talented scorers were traded away
Led the Suns to a middle-of-the-pack defense (15th and 17th) each year without any defensive anchors

I mean, I thought last year was a debacle. I think Hornacek may deserve a little bit of the blame, but the lions share of it should go to the FO, and some to the players being idiots or whiners, but I can understand a guy like Dragic being upset the FO brought in Thomas forcing Horny to marginalize him.

It's pretty clear the players' frustrations were ALL with the FO and NOT with the coach.

You mentioned that "apparently Horny should only be judged on year one" but I've explained what I think the problem was with year two. And the way we ended the season we barely could field a team..our entire FC was out as was our new player and we had traded away two of our best scorers.

Keep in mind also that despite the debacle in team make up and chemistry last year, he is still 10 games over 500 with this roster turnover and the injuries last year. But the main thing is the team he started with two years ago only had one high pick (Len) who was a rookie, unless you count Frye, who was drafted like 10th, but was coming off a year off. Other than that it was all either late lotto, very late first, second rounders or undrafted guys....and this team was fighting with Dallas and Memphis for the playoffs, and Dallas took SA 7 games. Memphis took OKC 7 games also.

So you have a coach working with mid to late first round picks for the most part, and some journeyman, going up against the toughest WC ever. He's got a tough job. Not many, if any, coaches would take this squad to the playoffs in this conference.

[jcsunsfan]

If Suns won't improve this season (more plays and assists, less isos) then Hornacek needs to go.

Knight is very disappointing so far. Mayby he would play better off the ball as undersized Shooting guard.

Only player who looks good so far is Alex Len.

Devin Booker is shooting 46% from the three for preseason, and 81% from the free throw line. He also average 11 points in 22 minutes. Decent. Great, actually, for an 18 year old.

[Saberestar]

Steve Nash wearing our jersey again.

https://instagram.com/p/9EkITwA5CW/

[Damkac]

If Suns won't improve this season (more plays and assists, less isos) then Hornacek needs to go.

Knight is very disappointing so far. Mayby he would play better off the ball as undersized Shooting guard.

Only player who looks good so far is Alex Len.

Devin Booker is shooting 46% from the three for preseason, and 81% from the free throw line. He also average 11 points in 22 minutes. Decent. Great, actually, for an 18 year old.

Sorry forgot about him. It's great to have guys like Len, Booker, Warren (and Archie?) on team. They don't have much hype around the league but I hope they all will have great careers and at least one of them will be All-Star. I mainly watch games to see how young guys are doing. Hope they all will get their minutes next season. If Tucker will be getting starter minutes again I will be mad.

I didn't realise how bad was our 3pt shooting this preseason. If this won't improve we have a serious problem

[Revived]

Steve Nash wearing our jersey again.

https://instagram.com/p/9EkITwA5CW/

Them biceps doe

[lilfishi22]

Acquiring Knight in the fashion McDo did, seemed like an 'all in' move. I think McDo jumped at the bait Riley put out, then got caught swap fever trying to replace Dragic. Seems like he could have toughed it out with Dragic, let him walk if need be, and kept the fLaker pick while signing Knight. Heck, we could have just finished the season sans Dragon.There did not appear to be much interest in BK, even from his own team.

What did Kidd not see in him that McDo does ??? Not sure I value Ryan's eye over future haller Kidd when it comes to PGs. In fact, I don't.

This move for Knight could be one of those defining moments a GM makes...either good or bad. I have to believe there are some major, multiple moves coming up. This is an incomplete team, neither posed for the playoffs or set up to cultivate youngsters. I have to side with Vegas on the O/U.... 36.5 seems about painfully and boringly right

I totally agree. Knight would not have been a guy I would've jumped on when he became available. I would've loved to have gone for an actual SG with an SG body but they seem intent on running with a very potent backcourt.

I also hated that we had to trade Ennis and the Laker pick for Knight.