PS7: Hornets @ Pistons Wed Oct 21 7:30 EST

[RollingWave]

if possible, I want to see one game where they just start Hawes / Zeller / Lin and see if they can run a defense / offense around that.

I agree with Lamar that while Al looks much thinner and it's commendable that he reinvented his body at this age, but he's really missing a lot of bunnies, and he's moving faster for him but is still slow, and I think most importantly, yes he draws double team but it doesn't help if he can't pass out of it effectively.

He's had basically 1 good game out of 7 so far. that's at least a slight concern.

[qiantom]

I'd support Al coming off the bench if we had a defensive center to take over the starting big man role. We don't have the anymore, so I can't say that benching Al would help much.

Yeah. The problem now is the alternatives are not much better defensively.

[MPM]

Only read the last three pages of the thread, so apologies if this was brought up earlier, but the start of this game was very reminiscent of last year. Dump the ball down low and watch it disappear. Ball movement? What?

I think Cliff has a lifetime subscription to the establish-yourself-down-low-early thinking that promises to open up the floor for your shooters as the game progresses. It has never seemed to work for us with Al. The ball rarely ever comes out (or comes out in an intelligent way) from the post, the ball stops moving, shots stop falling, everyone stands around and eventually starts looking for iso opportunities. Sucks the life out of us. Would love to see us reverse the logic, open games more free flowing to get the guys enthused/active and let the flow open up unforced opportunities for Al.

Generally - at least for this game - I found our first unit still far too plodding and Al-heavy (Batum tries to keep things moving), and our second unit prone to thoughtless hero ball by our guards (Kaminsky got almost no touches).

Nice to see them win, but I can't say I enjoyed this one as much as the others.

[13th Man]

Pretty interesting to hear you guys' take on Al, I've been under the impression that he's the go-to guy on this team but it seems as though you're tired of low-post ISOs and want to see more ball movement.

[MPM]

Pretty interesting to hear you guys' take on Al, I've been under the impression that he's the go-to guy on this team but it seems as though you're tired of low-post ISOs and want to see more ball movement.

I actually really like Al and love having him on the team, I just don't ever want him to be the hinge on which our offense swings (unless we can find him a spot on the 2nd unit - come on, Cliff).

I'm not sure if I speak for the board, but we've seen Al at his absolute best and based on that taste, understand that Alfense is never going to take us anywhere and tends to diminish the contributions and development of the rest of the team. Al is a very good (sometimes very, very good) player but he's never going to regularly be the guy you can give the ball to and say 'get us a win.' He plays one side of the court and his greatest strength seems to weaken us a bit. Oh well.

[predators]

Pretty interesting to hear you guys' take on Al, I've been under the impression that he's the go-to guy on this team but it seems as though you're tired of low-post ISOs and want to see more ball movement.

Al is just a catch 22. When he is living rent free in the opposing centers head, he is one of the most fun players to watch in the nba. But his pick and roll defense is sooo bad, and he just isn't good at passing out of the double team. So when he isn't in the zone, he is such a negative to the team you'll start to hate his game. Which sucks because he is probably one of the most likeable guys off the court.

[yosemiteben]

Al had a down game but I think we're overdoing things a bit. On the offensive end, he missed several shots that were good shots that he normally makes. We were even with DET on the boards even though I thought we did a poor job by our standards.

I don't think you can blame Al entirely for our break downs on PNRs, might go back and watch where the break down was but my recollection is that on most of the lobs Al was helping contain off the screen and it was on the weakside defender or the guard that got caught on the screen (happened to Daniels a couple times) to help with the roll.

Not saying Al had a good game, he obviously wasn't playing as well as he is capable at least offensively.

ETA: Drummond highlights up -

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcCViugEaFY[/youtube]

Generally I think it was a scheme / poor execution issue on the PNRs, not a lack of effort issue though there were a couple bad moments too.

[Mystical Apples]

Al's all or nothing. He'll start until Clifford decides he no longer warrants minutes, at which point he'll no longer be on the team.

Contrary to some of the comments, the primary rotation players on the second team as a whole played well. Roberts not so much. Of note Clifford is employing Kaminsky differently the last 3 pre-season games and he clearly trusts him as a defender.

[fatlever]

My biggest question mark with Jefferson this year is his passing. As others mentioned, there is no point to a 4 out offense, if the 1 post player can't or won't pass out of the post. Jefferson is a massive ball stopper that completely kills any chance of creating good shots for others when he draws a double.

His defense is going to suck and we all know it. That much isn't a question. We've been overcoming his awfulness on defense for two years.

[Mystical Apples]

My biggest question mark with Jefferson this year is his passing. As others mentioned, there is no point to a 4 out offense, if the 1 post player can't or won't pass out of the post. Jefferson is a massive ball stopper that completely kills any chance of creating good shots for others when he draws a double.

His defense is going to suck and we all know it. That much isn't a question. We've been overcoming his awfulness on defense for two years.

Sportvu is going to be the nail in his coffin. It's not just that he's bad at what he's doing, he's bad at the simplified version of what is asked of him.

[spaceballer]

Al was frustrating to watch in this game. I saw him take a shot while covered by like 3 or 4 opponents (and missing) instead of passing out.

I'm hoping this was just a preseason experiment to deliberately go into Alfense to see what they can get from Alfense against the bigs in Detroit. I hope whatever data Cliff gets back shows him that Alfense is not optimal, and that this won't be a first option during the season.

Al needs to learn to pass out. Once you've draw double coverage, your job is done, kick it to an open teammate. Not try to score with 3 opponents draped on you (and miss!).

[yosemiteben]

Of note Clifford is employing Kaminsky differently the last 3 pre-season games and he clearly trusts him as a defender.

Mentioned it in the game thread but I was really impressed with Frank's closeouts on Tolliver. Tolliver was a tough cover for Frank in that he's a legit range shooter that needs to be respected, but he also has a quickness advantage over Frank, but Frank did a nice job of closing out hard without getting blown by. I continue to be impressed with has ability as a perimeter defender.

Not super impressed with his post D though, he needs to get stronger and figure out how to use that length.

[steady]

As a newcomer, what I am seeing is that it seems likely that Al will not be re-signed with Hornets next year given his style of play and the stated direction the Hornets are headed. The Hornets want him to do well, and give him a chance. But it is probably more important for their long term future to develop Zeller, Kaminsky or other of their bigs. It will be interesting to track this year – particularly as the team has such good character guys who will want Al to succeed.

[Mystical Apples]

Of note Clifford is employing Kaminsky differently the last 3 pre-season games and he clearly trusts him as a defender.

Mentioned it in the game thread but I was really impressed with Frank's closeouts on Tolliver. Tolliver was a tough cover for Frank in that he's a legit range shooter that needs to be respected, but he also has a quickness advantage over Frank, but Frank did a nice job of closing out hard without getting blown by. I continue to be impressed with has ability as a perimeter defender.

Not super impressed with his post D though, he needs to get stronger and figure out how to use that length.

Zeller is more athletic/explosive but for his size Frank is quick and fluid in his perimeter rotations and moves without thinking. When he's on the court Clifford uses his length differently than the other C/Pf's esp in the high PnR. I can see teams stop running it versus Batum and Kaminsky, or at least getting away from it towards the end of shot clocks if at all possible.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/oppshooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Pre%20Season&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&PlayerPosition=C&CF=Above%20the%20Break%203%20FGA*GE*40&PerMode=Totals&sort=Above%20the%20Break%203%20FG%20PCT&dir=-1

[fatlever]

Al was frustrating to watch in this game. I saw him take a shot while covered by like 3 or 4 opponents (and missing) instead of passing out.

I'm hoping this was just a preseason experiment to deliberately go into Alfense to see what they can get from Alfense against the bigs in Detroit. I hope whatever data Cliff gets back shows him that Alfense is not optimal, and that this won't be a first option during the season.

Al needs to learn to pass out. Once you've draw double coverage, your job is done, kick it to an open teammate. Not try to score with 3 opponents draped on you (and miss!).

its been that way for the previous two seasons. Its hard to think that Al or Clifford will change now. Both guys say all the right things in interviews this preseason, but in games its a different story. Al forces bad shots thru double-triple teams, holds the ball too long and rarely passes out of the post quickly, and Clifford keeps letting him do it, while continuing to run plays for him.

[Benjamin Linus]

Yeah, that's probably my biggest complain about Al. I can deal with his defense, since we can usually cover that up (at least when MKG is on the floor) but dude... pass the ball!

[ChokeFasncists]

Would love to see us reverse the logic, open games more free flowing to get the guys enthused/active and let the flow open up unforced opportunities for Al.

Agreed. Al seems to work best in an opportunistic way now. With so many passers on the team, he shouldn't need to worry not getting enough touches. OTOH, dumping it down low would work if he comes off the bench and dominate the opposing teams' second unit.

[yosemiteben]

Both guys say all the right things in interviews this preseason, but in games its a different story.

Is it? I would say our ball movement has been much impressed this preseason. I think he was hunting his shot a bit much in this game, but that was a break from the trend, not the norm.

[JDR720]

Al isn't getting benched. Clifford believes he is our best player.

he is the starters problem .... but actually i am quite impressed with his FT , is he usually that solid with FT?

not really, he will be in the 65-70% range and shoot below 3.5 attempts per game probably, (65.5% and 2.5 attempts last season)

[RealHusky]

Al was frustrating to watch in this game. I saw him take a shot while covered by like 3 or 4 opponents (and missing) instead of passing out.

I'm hoping this was just a preseason experiment to deliberately go into Alfense to see what they can get from Alfense against the bigs in Detroit. I hope whatever data Cliff gets back shows him that Alfense is not optimal, and that this won't be a first option during the season.

Al needs to learn to pass out. Once you've draw double coverage, your job is done, kick it to an open teammate. Not try to score with 3 opponents draped on you (and miss!).

its been that way for the previous two seasons. Its hard to think that Al or Clifford will change now. Both guys say all the right things in interviews this preseason, but in games its a different story. Al forces bad shots thru double-triple teams, holds the ball too long and rarely passes out of the post quickly, and Clifford keeps letting him do it, while continuing to run plays for him.

I don't have any problem with Al going for those shots if he can draw fouls. He does not do that consistently which is a problem. Dwight Howard would get hammered if he gets the ball deep like Al did last game. Unfortunately, Al does not bulldoze into the other player to get fouls as often as he should. He took too many contested low percentage shots.

Another thing Al needs to do better is set screens for the guards. He really needs to help with that. Without a good P&R big man, it will be really tough for Hornet guards to finish. It will put way too much pressure on the guards. There are only so many times Lin and Kemba can drive into the post and get fouled hard per game.