Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[barelyawake]

The significance of "star calls" is probably being preposterously overstated. I say "probably" because it's a squishy enough concept that any attempt to analyze them would fall apart because there'd never be agreement on what actually constitutes a "star call." I think penbeast states it properly.

What's great is I first coined the term "star calls" and whole cloth invented the concept. I also invented the myths that Shaq, Jordan, LeBron etc would offensive foul with impunity. Or that LeBron, Kobe, etc would travel with impunity. I also imagined that Gilbert went from not getting calls to suddenly getting them every time he drove the lane (once he became an AllStar).

I think the reason you want to dismiss the concept, which is widely held, is because it's "squishy." You have a reason to dismiss that the system is somewhat rigged. Half the calls in the NBA could go either way. Stars get the benefit of the doubt, and thus are allowed to take more risks (and are bailed out more often for those risks). That makes them more efficient in a statistical sense.

We aren't going to be able to prove this one way or another. I'll simply say that building a team without being mindful that refs favor stars is fool-hearty.

PS CCJ I know you have an opinion on this since you mention it every playoffs.

[penbeast0]

Re: 3) The Wall Effect, which I've looked at over the past few years, is equivocal. Some guys seem to do better when on the floor with Wall; others seem to do worse; others about the same. I do think it's very possible Cousins could benefit from playing with Wall -- especially if he improved his shot selection, reduced his turnovers and stopped fouling so much.

Personally, I'd have to see Wall really cut down on his OWN turnovers before I considered going after Cousins. Can you imagine Cousins and Wall on the same team posting the same TOV rates? It would be a nightmare.

One of the positive effects of ball-dominant PGs is that their teammates often commit fewer turnovers when he's on the floor. I sorta recollect seeing this in the numbers when I looked at "Wall Effect" earlier this summer, but I was focused more on shooting percentages since that's what people mean when they say "Wall Effect." No one (that I've heard anyway) has said something like: Wow, Martell Webster and Trevor Ariza are sooooo much better because their turnovers are down when Wall is out there. Last season, the Wizards turnover rate was a bit lower when Wall was out there -- probably because teammate turnovers were down. So, one possible effect of teaming Wall and Cousins would be that Cousins' turnovers could go down.

Worth studying in greater detail.

After I get projections done.

Interesting and logical thesis. Looking forward to seeing it when you do the research.

[TheSecretWeapon]

The significance of "star calls" is probably being preposterously overstated. I say "probably" because it's a squishy enough concept that any attempt to analyze them would fall apart because there'd never be agreement on what actually constitutes a "star call." I think penbeast states it properly.

What's great is I first coined the term "star calls" and whole cloth invented the concept. I also invented the myths that Shaq, Jordan, LeBron etc would offensive foul with impunity. Or that LeBron, Kobe, etc would travel with impunity. I also imagined that Gilbert went from not getting calls to suddenly getting them every time he drove the lane (once he became an AllStar).

I think the reason you want to dismiss the concept, which is widely held, is because it's "squishy." You have a reason to dismiss that the system is somewhat rigged. Half the calls in the NBA could go either way. Stars get the benefit of the doubt, and thus are allowed to take more risks (and are bailed out more often for those risks). That makes them more efficient in a statistical sense.

We aren't going to be able to prove this one way or another. I'll simply say that building a team without being mindful that refs favor stars is fool-hearty.

PS CCJ I know you have an opinion on this since you mention it every playoffs.

Your Arenas example is interesting, and could end up being a good way of studying the issue. Gil's FTA per 100 team possessions increased early in his career, and then rose even more/faster when he became an All-Star.

In his book, Dean Oliver wrote about a Jordan effect on the Wizards defense. That effect: fewer fouls called on the Wizards when Jordan was in the game. Might be another way to look at it.

[montestewart]

The significance of "star calls" is probably being preposterously overstated. I say "probably" because it's a squishy enough concept that any attempt to analyze them would fall apart because there'd never be agreement on what actually constitutes a "star call." I think penbeast states it properly.

What's great is I first coined the term "star calls" and whole cloth invented the concept. I also invented the myths that Shaq, Jordan, LeBron etc would offensive foul with impunity. Or that LeBron, Kobe, etc would travel with impunity. I also imagined that Gilbert went from not getting calls to suddenly getting them every time he drove the lane (once he became an AllStar).

I think the reason you want to dismiss the concept, which is widely held, is because it's "squishy." You have a reason to dismiss that the system is somewhat rigged. Half the calls in the NBA could go either way. Stars get the benefit of the doubt, and thus are allowed to take more risks (and are bailed out more often for those risks). That makes them more efficient in a statistical sense.

We aren't going to be able to prove this one way or another. I'll simply say that building a team without being mindful that refs favor stars is fool-hearty.

PS CCJ I know you have an opinion on this since you mention it every playoffs.

You don't have to convince me about star calls. I agree with your examples, and Durant gets them too. But is Cousins, one of the most prolific foulers in the league, getting many of these calls? Maybe over time, especially with some AS and All-NBA appearances, he will be receiving more of that star call benefit. Another question is whether such calls occur at the same rate or a different rate in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Maybe we just remember the playoff star calls better because so much more is at stake.

[pineappleheadindc]

With respect to all-star calls, I've always wondered if fans weren't looking at it tail-end-first (or backwards). Could it be that all-stars don't get calls because they're all star, but they're all stars because they know how to get the calls? It's all about the fine art of knowing how to embellish at just the right time and just the right level of subtlety, or how to not piss off the refs, or how to instantly see the defender in a bad position and creating the contact and getting to the line.

I look at Harden as a prime example. He gets a million calls. But he earns them because he knows exactly how to create the contact and when. And his FTs mean that his FG% is better, PPG better, he puts his defender in foul trouble more (and potentially plays against bench players more). And then his skill at drawing fouls so benefits himself and team (they get into penalty faster, etc) that it helps make him an all star.

[barelyawake]

The significance of "star calls" is probably being preposterously overstated. I say "probably" because it's a squishy enough concept that any attempt to analyze them would fall apart because there'd never be agreement on what actually constitutes a "star call." I think penbeast states it properly.

What's great is I first coined the term "star calls" and whole cloth invented the concept. I also invented the myths that Shaq, Jordan, LeBron etc would offensive foul with impunity. Or that LeBron, Kobe, etc would travel with impunity. I also imagined that Gilbert went from not getting calls to suddenly getting them every time he drove the lane (once he became an AllStar).

I think the reason you want to dismiss the concept, which is widely held, is because it's "squishy." You have a reason to dismiss that the system is somewhat rigged. Half the calls in the NBA could go either way. Stars get the benefit of the doubt, and thus are allowed to take more risks (and are bailed out more often for those risks). That makes them more efficient in a statistical sense.

We aren't going to be able to prove this one way or another. I'll simply say that building a team without being mindful that refs favor stars is fool-hearty.

PS CCJ I know you have an opinion on this since you mention it every playoffs.

You don't have to convince me about star calls. I agree with your examples, and Durant gets them too. But is Cousins, one of the most prolific foulers in the league, getting many of these calls? Maybe over time, especially with some AS and All-NBA appearances, he will be receiving more of that star call benefit. Another question is whether such calls occur at the same rate or a different rate in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Maybe we just remember the playoff star calls better because so much more is at stake.

These are all fair questions. My answer would be Cousins has much more of a chance than Gortat.

Here's me stating what I believe to be true, and I can't prove a lick of it. I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

[barelyawake]

With respect to all-star calls, I've always wondered if fans weren't looking at it tail-end-first (or backwards). Could it be that all-stars don't get calls because they're all star, but they're all stars because they know how to get the calls? It's all about the fine art of knowing how to embellish at just the right time and just the right level of subtlety, or how to not piss off the refs, or how to instantly see the defender in a bad position and creating the contact and getting to the line.

I look at Harden as a prime example. He gets a million calls. But he earns them because he knows exactly how to create the contact and when. And his FTs mean that his FG% is better, PPG better, he puts his defender in foul trouble more (and potentially plays against bench players more). And then his skill at drawing fouls so benefits himself and team (they get into penalty faster, etc) that it helps make him an all star.

Obviously, some of that is at play. That doesn't account for LeBron and folks like him not getting whistled for things that other folks do (often in the same game, with the same refs).

[payitforward]

...I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

Dude. Last season, DeMarcus Cousins got to the line 3d most in the league (per 40 minutes on the floor)!! Behind only Westbrook and Harden.

That's "Absolutely" a fact (not a belief). Don't you ever check first to see if you're about to write something off the wall like the above?

The next 8 after Cousins included superstars Isaiah Thomas, Tony Wroten, Alexey Shved, DeMar Derozan and Louis Williams. All those stars got to the line more than Kevin Durant!

Durant got to the line 7.3 times per 40 minutes -- slightly more than superstar Mason Plumlee who got there 7.1 times, as did his fellow star Jimmy Butler.

Both of those guys got there more than Carmelo Anthony. H#ll, Nikola Mirotic and Shabazz Muhammed both got to the line more than Carmelo Anthony.

Thomas Robinson more than Tim Duncan. Andrea Bargnani more than Pau Gasol. Bismack Biyombo more than any of those 4. Ramon Sessions more than Stephen Curry. Danilo Gallinari more than Dirk Nowitzki.

Give it up, man....

[barelyawake]

...I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

Dude. Last season, DeMarcus Cousins got to the line 3d most in the league (per 40 minutes on the floor)!! Behind only Westbrook and Harden.

That's "Absolutely" a fact (not a belief). Don't you ever check first to see if you're about to write something off the wall like the above?

The next 8 after Cousins included superstars Isaiah Thomas, Tony Wroten, Alexey Shved, DeMar Derozan and Louis Williams. All those stars got to the line more than Kevin Durant!

Durant got to the line 7.3 times per 40 minutes -- slightly more than superstar Mason Plumlee who got there 7.1 times, as did his fellow star Jimmy Butler.

Both of those guys got there more than Carmelo Anthony. H#ll, Nikola Mirotic and Shabazz Muhammed both got to the line more than Carmelo Anthony.

Thomas Robinson more than Tim Duncan. Andrea Bargnani more than Pau Gasol. Bismack Biyombo more than any of those 4. Ramon Sessions more than Stephen Curry. Danilo Gallinari more than Dirk Nowitzki.

Give it up, man....

I know exactly what the stats are. And I meant fouls against him (which happens to be the criticism against him in this thread) not fouls he drew. Would not he be "more efficient" if he was issued less fouls?

And again, you thinking "star calls" don't exist actually puts you in the minority in terms of NBA fans -- ask Tim Donaghy. Believe what you will. Just do me a favor and tell it to someone who cares what you think -- because I haven't for a great long while.

[payitforward]

...I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

Dude. Last season, DeMarcus Cousins got to the line 3d most in the league (per 40 minutes on the floor)!! Behind only Westbrook and Harden.

That's "Absolutely" a fact (not a belief). Don't you ever check first to see if you're about to write something off the wall like the above?

The next 8 after Cousins included superstars Isaiah Thomas, Tony Wroten, Alexey Shved, DeMar Derozan and Louis Williams. All those stars got to the line more than Kevin Durant!

Durant got to the line 7.3 times per 40 minutes -- slightly more than superstar Mason Plumlee who got there 7.1 times, as did his fellow star Jimmy Butler.

Both of those guys got there more than Carmelo Anthony. H#ll, Nikola Mirotic and Shabazz Muhammed both got to the line more than Carmelo Anthony.

Thomas Robinson more than Tim Duncan. Andrea Bargnani more than Pau Gasol. Bismack Biyombo more than any of those 4. Ramon Sessions more than Stephen Curry. Danilo Gallinari more than Dirk Nowitzki.

Give it up, man....

I know exactly what the stats are. And I meant fouls against him (which happens to be the criticism against him in this thread) not fouls he drew. Would not he be "more efficient" if he was issued less fouls?

And again, you thinking "star calls" don't exist actually puts you in the minority in terms of NBA fans -- ask Tim Donaghy. Believe what you will. Just do me a favor and tell it to someone who cares what you think -- because I haven't for a great long while.

I didn't say "star calls" don't exist -- in fact, I mentioned that they did. The question is only whether they have much effect on anything.

But, of course, "star calls" are of both kinds -- cases in which a star is not called for a foul (because he's a star), and those where guys are called for fouling a star when they wouldn't be called for the foul if the guy wasn't a star.

You're only talking about the former kind, right. Cousins gets called for a lot of fouls, it's true -- but you "absolutely believe" that's because he's not considered a star. So, in that case we'd see "stars" tending to be bunched down among those who get called for few fouls. The way, for example, Kevin Durant is down there -- doesn't get called for a lot of fouls per 40 minutes on the court.

Ok, I get it. Fair enough.

That must be why stars like Kemba Walker, Nicolas Batum, Jimmy Butler, Ty Lawson, Trey Burke, Courtney Lee and Vander Blue are down there near their fellow star Durant. Right?

Then there's "Would not he (Cousins) be 'more efficient' if he was issued less fouls?" Are you asking whether it'd be better if he fouled less? I'll have to think about that.... Ok, I thought about it. Yes, he would be.

On the other hand, it's not that much of a drag on his efficiency -- at least not as bad as the fact that among guys who play 30+ minutes a game DeMarcus Cousins is 3d in the entire league in Turnovers.

Naturally, #s 1 and 2 are PGs. In fact, of the 16 Centers besides Cousins who played 30+ minutes/game last year, do you know how many committed 50% or fewer TOs than DeMarcus? 14 of the 16 -- but, hey, you "know exactly what the stats are", so of course you did know that.

As to your devastating remark about not caring what I think; it was painful, really it was, until I recalled that, really, "thinking" isn't what you're interested in. You'd have to *do some thinking* to show such an interest. You are interested in your "absolute belief" -- wasn't that your phrase?

On the other hand, I'm kind of thick-skinned; in fact, I promise you that as soon as you start doing some thinking, I'll be interested. Give it a try, man, it doesn't hurt all that much and over time you get used to it.

[payitforward]

We've taken our little tiff far enough, barelyawake: you want the last word, take it please. I promise not to respond. We're boring our pals here. You have a great forum name, btw; great choice for you....

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What's great is I first coined the term "star calls" and whole cloth invented the concept. I also invented the myths that Shaq, Jordan, LeBron etc would offensive foul with impunity. Or that LeBron, Kobe, etc would travel with impunity. I also imagined that Gilbert went from not getting calls to suddenly getting them every time he drove the lane (once he became an AllStar).

I think the reason you want to dismiss the concept, which is widely held, is because it's "squishy." You have a reason to dismiss that the system is somewhat rigged. Half the calls in the NBA could go either way. Stars get the benefit of the doubt, and thus are allowed to take more risks (and are bailed out more often for those risks). That makes them more efficient in a statistical sense.

We aren't going to be able to prove this one way or another. I'll simply say that building a team without being mindful that refs favor stars is fool-hearty.

PS CCJ I know you have an opinion on this since you mention it every playoffs.

You don't have to convince me about star calls. I agree with your examples, and Durant gets them too. But is Cousins, one of the most prolific foulers in the league, getting many of these calls? Maybe over time, especially with some AS and All-NBA appearances, he will be receiving more of that star call benefit. Another question is whether such calls occur at the same rate or a different rate in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Maybe we just remember the playoff star calls better because so much more is at stake.

These are all fair questions. My answer would be Cousins has much more of a chance than Gortat.

Here's me stating what I believe to be true, and I can't prove a lick of it. I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

I think don't diddle around and mess up good chemistry in the case of PERHAPS replacing Gortat with Cousins...

I'm the same guy who thinks TheSecretWeapon and anyone else who thinks Gortat is better than Cousins is WRONG. Yet, I think Gortat is so very unselfish and so very efficient and so very professional; that THE LAST THING I want to do is to trade Marcin for Boogie Cousins. That might not work out so well ...

Seems to be a NO BRAINER to me to try and send Nene and a bunch else to get Boogie. Particularly since the Kings are very poised to succeed WITHOUT Cousins, and because NENE would be the perfect veteran addition for that team's playoff aspirations. Seems to me the Kings have a bunch of assets at PF/C, in Koufos, Willie Caulie Stein, Eric Moreland, and Quincy Acy. They're in PERFECT position to trade DeMarcus Cousins.

I think pretty much for sure they'd take Gortat, Beal, and a pick -- but THAT IS TOO MUCH for the Wizards to trade IMO.

barelyawake, OTOH a guy like DeMarcus would get all sorts of calls in the playoffs especially as a Wizard.

[J-Ves]

Just wondering if the guys who want DMC are willing to completely gut the team? Because when/if he goes on the trading block its going to cost more than beal/Gortat/1st to get it done. Porter and Oubre will have to be part of the deal too at the very least, and that's just too much a asking price imo.

[gambitx777]

If they want more than Beal, Gortat and a pick then they can get bent, That's way to much for one guy with a temper. Otto should be untouchable, one of the main things that makes KD to DC so nice is that he would be playing next too otto. Toss kelly in there and you have a deadly 3 man rotation with scoring and D on an elite level. Over paying for Boggie would be the worst mistake ever made, I'm ok with moving beal, since we have to pay him, im ok with moving gorat because we are getting boggie and im ok giving picks because thats the nature of the beast. but No Way am I moving GOrtat, Beal, Otto, and Kelly.

[nate33]

Just wondering if the guys who want DMC are willing to completely gut the team? Because when/if he goes on the trading block its going to cost more than beal/Gortat/1st to get it done. Porter and Oubre will have to be part of the deal too at the very least, and that's just too much a asking price imo.

Yes. It is too much of asking price.

The premise behind getting Cousins is that we would be getting him at a discount. If Cousins plays well and doesn't have an attitude problem, there is no chance that Sacramento trades him. Nobody trades young All Star big men.

Cousins trade scenarios only come into play if Cousin demands a trade. In that case, we'd be assuming that Cousins has a short list of teams that interest him, including Washington because of the John Wall connection. We would only need to offer a trade package better than what other teams on the short list would offer. I'm betting that not a lot of teams would be able to offer a highly regarded, young, future all-star SG in Beal, plus a legit top 10ish center on a good contract.

[pcbothwel]

If they want more than Beal, Gortat and a pick then they can get bent, That's way to much for one guy with a temper.

Agreed. In fact, I see no reason not to wait until 2018. If we win 50+ games this year, I'd like to see us add KD only. There are diminishing returns with adding too many players of a certain caliber, temperament, and skill set.

If Gortat shows not to be Championship caliber and Cousins looks a little more mature (along with improvements in shot selection and turnovers), then maybe I make the deal in 2017 with one year left and send them Beal and a 1st.

[doclinkin]

That must be why stars like Kemba Walker, Nicolas Batum, Jimmy Butler, Ty Lawson, Trey Burke, Courtney Lee and Vander Blue are down there near their fellow star Durant. Right?.

I think the test case example will be Draymond Green who was a bottom feeder on the list of most foul prone heavy minute players, but whose playoff work not only got him mightily well paid but raised his reputation league wide as a great defender etc etc. If his foul rate drops significantly after his team has won then it tends to go towards b/a's point: winners get more leeway, better calls.

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. And many of his turnovers are offensive fouls, you get the sense refs don't like him because seriously, who would put up with all that? He's not quiet even in his body language. The majority of the guys on the list of least-whistled high-minute players are quiet-spoken nice guy types. Kobe being the exception, but he's a pros pro when it comes to gaming the refs.

I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum. But if the real argument is Gortat vs Boogie, I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Now I don't know that his interior game sinters well with Wall, I don't see a lot of pick and roll in the few Kings games I've seen. But he's big and mobile with huge baskets for hands, if he could develop that part of his game he'd be a monster. In few cases is Gortat a mismatch in our favor, the way that Wall is. Players that force opponents to foul in order to handle the basic thing they do (Wall: speed; Boogie: beast) put us at an advantage. Surround those two with outside snipers and stand back, it'd be a nightmare for teams to handle.

Still as Cousins does not defend the P&R well, and as he clogs the lane at the offensive end, and bitches a bunch, and shoots bad shots, and thinks he passes better than he does, and since Gortat is a good teammate good guy, hard worker, good example to Otto et al in the weight room, etc. etc. I'm agnostic on the issue. I see the appeal, unstoppable next to uncatchable, but I wonder about chemistry and synergy.

[Ruzious]

You don't have to convince me about star calls. I agree with your examples, and Durant gets them too. But is Cousins, one of the most prolific foulers in the league, getting many of these calls? Maybe over time, especially with some AS and All-NBA appearances, he will be receiving more of that star call benefit. Another question is whether such calls occur at the same rate or a different rate in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Maybe we just remember the playoff star calls better because so much more is at stake.

These are all fair questions. My answer would be Cousins has much more of a chance than Gortat.

Here's me stating what I believe to be true, and I can't prove a lick of it. I believe, like Rasheed and Metta before him, Cousins is somewhat being punished (and by that I mean not allowed the calls that his talent and draft position should garner), because he is viewed as a hothead. I believe, as you said, with more AllStar appearances and more wins (which means less frustration and less techs), he will "earn" more leeway. Can't prove it. Obviously he has to earn the AllStar spots and start winning more first. But, that is my educated speculation. I also believe that a team with Wall/Cousins/Durant would help Cousins in terms of boosting his star rating. "Squishy"? Sure. Absolutely my belief.

I think don't diddle around and mess up good chemistry in the case of PERHAPS replacing Gortat with Cousins...

I'm the same guy who thinks TheSecretWeapon and anyone else who thinks Gortat is better than Cousins is WRONG. Yet, I think Gortat is so very unselfish and so very efficient and so very professional; that THE LAST THING I want to do is to trade Marcin for Boogie Cousins. That might not work out so well ...

Seems to be a NO BRAINER to me to try and send Nene and a bunch else to get Boogie. Particularly since the Kings are very poised to succeed WITHOUT Cousins, and because NENE would be the perfect veteran addition for that team's playoff aspirations. Seems to me the Kings have a bunch of assets at PF/C, in Koufos, Willie Caulie Stein, Eric Moreland, and Quincy Acy. They're in PERFECT position to trade DeMarcus Cousins.

I think pretty much for sure they'd take Gortat, Beal, and a pick -- but THAT IS TOO MUCH for the Wizards to trade IMO.

barelyawake, OTOH a guy like DeMarcus would get all sorts of calls in the playoffs especially as a Wizard.

Ask the Kings forum if they'd go for a Cousins for "Nene and a bunch" trade, and see how they respond.

And again, the Wizards need the expiring part of Nene's contract much more than Sacramento does.

[doclinkin]

3) We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success. Why wouldn't the same be true of a Cousins with whom Wall has built in history?

I keep hearing this. Thing is, it's not true. The poster child example is always Ariza, but in fact his best combined 2 years were w/ the Lakers not with us. Otherwise, no examples.

Wall's quite a good player, certainly one of the top ten, maybe even top five, NBA point guards. That's it. He doesn't transform other players. It's a silly idea.

Consider a single category: 3FG%
The following players have had their career best year three point percentages playing next to John Wall:

Cartier Martin
Trevor Ariza
Martell Webster
Drew Gooden
Otto Porter in the starting line-up (.343 vs .300)
Pierce posted his best 3FG % in five years playing next to Wall

And at one point play by play tracking showed that Wall-to-Beal for the corner three was one of the more efficient plays in the league. IN fact Wall sort of laps the field in creating this play.

OOh I found an article pointing it out specifically:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-rainmakers-players-who-create-the-most-corner-3s/

Now does this mean Boogie Cousins would be improved by playing next to John? Not necessarily. But Gortat credits John Wall for making it easy for him on Pick and Roll plays and favorably compares him to Nash in that regard. Though yes Cousins tends to stand and demand more than pick and roll. And on the low block he's a monster. He will drift to the mid range and above, but instead of setting a solid pick from that range, he prefers face up an opponent and likes to dribble drive from that spot. Not a sensible play. Still surrounding him with competent outside shooters set up by Wall for sniper shots while putting Cousins one-on-one vs any big man down low seems like it has potential for success. Yes.

[Rafael122]

Here's the thing, Cousins is at the 4 now with Koufos as the center. It sounds like WCS will start tomorrow so here's my question: why offer Gortat and Beal when it seems as though we could get away w/Beal, Oubre and future picks? Who else can beat that? Boston doesn't have the players, tho they have the picks. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone that could match that, a potential all star shooting guard (they have no 2 guard, it's abysmal) and a potential Rudy Gay replacement.