The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[Cheeze]

Clifford's always been a straight shooter. Not a great big fan of his bias toward veterans, but he lets everyone know where they stand. He coaches a man's game. Kids are sent packing or don't play.

I think he'd do well with a stacked roster, one with at least one bonafide star. He simply isn't imaginative enough to win with a roster full of one-dimensional or role players.

[fatlever]

Lack of discussion probably has more to do with the fact that Realgm has been down most of the past 18 hours and the phone app still isn't working.

[LamarMatic7]

I'm a little surprised at the lack of discussion following that Woj piece.

I somehow didn't see it on my Twitter feed. Thanks for notifying us.

Another article which proves that Clifford might be the ultimate Rudy T-like "player's coach". Now, Clifford might not be all the way there in regards to game management but it looks like he is a coach who'll always get a gig just because players will love him.

That does say something about the way the team has performed. Everything points to the fact that he has got probably a lot more out of our defense than anybody else would have, both due to the reason that he preaches smart schemes and that the players are willing to go through fire to execute them.

What will be interesting is to see how his next team fares on offense. Obviously, a lot of variables will be at work there. His assistants and the one offensive mind among them, the level of the players (mainly this as our teams of two last years were simply playing in the wrong decade) he has, the growth he himself might go through as a coach in his first stint here, etc.

But if we never get better than the 15th most efficient offense, that narrative will soon start following Cliff no matter what. "Yeah, his defenses are awesome but will they be able to score under him?"

Although.. on a second thought. Aren't we the exact type of franchise on which everyone **** on and our offensive woes will be shrugged away due to that reason? "Yeah.. Clifford's teams couldn't score in Charlotte. But that was Charlotte, not his fault."

[LamarMatic7]

Oh and.. Woj saying this:

Once Clifford deemed the Stephenson experiment a failure – that the Hornets weren’t doing anything well with him – players say that they had to endure a few locker-room tantrums. Clifford let Stephenson blow off steam, responding the next day with a detailed video session to show the young guard all the reasons that led to his benching.

is like Zach Lowe saying this:

His [Lance’s] demeanor has been awful. This is not like us from a thousand miles away saying this. I was there. People hate it there. It’s a real thing. The team is not thrilled with what they have got out of him, let’s put it that way.”

[yosemiteben]

I honestly think there is about a 0% chance he is not extended because (a) the players that this franchise have prioritized (MKG and Kemba) love him, (b) he seems to have a great relationship with ownership, (c) the talk about changing the culture and identity is legit, and (d) we can't afford to have Batum and Lin walk and then strike out in this FA class, and I think the odds of that happening are much, much greater if we go through a coaching change.

I also think it's a bit premature to say it'll be interesting to see how his next team fares offensively - hell I can't wait to see how this team does.

[LamarMatic7]

I honestly think there is about a 0% chance he is not extended because (a) the players that this franchise have prioritized (MKG and Kemba) love him, (b) he seems to have a great relationship with ownership, (c) the talk about changing the culture and identity is legit, and (d) we can't afford to have Batum and Lin walk and then strike out in this FA class, and I think the odds of that happening are much, much greater if we go through a coaching change.

I also think it's a bit premature to say it'll be interesting to see how his next team fares offensively - hell I can't wait to see how this team does.

You're exaggerating if you're putting it at a 0% chance.

Reportedly..

a) People will get fired if we won't make the playoffs;
b) The relationship between Cho and Clifford is not the best;
c) Other teams for some reason are already doing their due diligence on Clifford, sensing that an opportunity to grab him might be there;
d) MJ has made moves way more unpredictable and out of the blue.

If you gave me something like 6-to-1 odds, I wouldn't feel bad about making the bet that Clifford gets canned. Those would be good odds, in my opinion.

[DY_nasty]

I like Cliff more after his decision to bench Al late game and that Woj piece.

[yosemiteben]

Fair, higher than 0%, but I see Cho as being much more likely to go than Cliff which takes case of (a) and (b). We have seen a major emphasis on putting together a good team in advance of the ASG in 2017 (and IMO in advance of Steph's FA in summer of 2017). Can you imagine if we fire Cliff, Lin and Batum walk, and we can't sign anyone in FA because all teams have cash and we are in an uncertain phase (rebuild?).

That would be the ultimate worst case scenario from a business and marketability perspective IMO. We can't be kicking off a transition phase next offseason.

[LamarMatic7]

Can you imagine if we fire Cliff, Lin and Batum walk, and we can't sign anyone in FA because all teams have cash and we are in an uncertain phase (rebuild?).

That would be the ultimate worst case scenario from a business and marketability perspective IMO. We can't be kicking off a transition phase next offseason.

Oh yeah, I can imagine anything. I have zero faith in MJ.

[yosemiteben]

I can see that take, but I also think no one can question his business acumen (or that of his advisors), or at least their desire to build a profitable organization, and I genuinely don't believe MJ will do a rebuild during probably the most significant offseason in franchise history before the season that we are hosting an ASG and just before the only superstar that this franchise may ever have a legitimate shot of attracting in FA hits the market.

[LamarMatic7]

I can see that take, but I also think no one can question his business acumen (or that of his advisors), or at least their desire to build a profitable organization, and I genuinely don't believe MJ will do a rebuild during probably the most significant offseason in franchise history before the season that we are hosting an ASG and just before the only superstar that this franchise may ever have a legitimate shot of attracting in FA hits the market.

All of that and not firing Clifford (or, yes, Cho, a much more likely candidate if things go south) aren't exclusive.

[yosemiteben]

Perhaps, but there's no way they can think they're going to keep Lin or Batum or be looked at as an attractive FA option if they do another coaching change. I get that there's always the element that MJ might rush a decision, but up until now I think our decision making has largely been driven by business considerations (rolling out the Hornets change, building up fan interest, earning the ASG, etc.). Cleaning house in such a pivotal moment just seems like it would undermine those business motivations.

[LamarMatic7]

You definitely have good arguments. I can't disagree with that, yosemite.

Good back-and-forth.

[yosemiteben]

[fatlever]

My two cents:

1) There aren't many coaches who miss the playoffs two years in a row and keep their jobs, especially when the owner is gunning for the playoffs. If we miss the playoffs, there is a good chance Clifford is not renewed. Everyone in the front office might love him and know he's destined for a good career, but that isn't always enough. Perhaps Clifford gets lucky and survives the offseason, but is on a very very short leash starting the next season. Anything less than a hot start and he'll be gone.

2) If Cho is fired, I would most certainly expect the next GM to bring in his own coach. Sometimes it doesn't happen that way, but more often than not new GM = new coach as well. In a perfect world, Cho should have to take blame before Clifford. There aren't many (if any at all) that could get many more wins out of this team. The talent just isn't there and that is mostly a Cho issue, followed by a player development issue (fault still to be determined).

3) At the very least, if we miss the playoffs and our offense is still woeful, Clifford will be forced to shuffle some of his assistants *cough* Ewing *cough*

[Diop]

Which brings me back to the question I posted in the game thread.

If you inherent a team where you're told the cornerstone/face players are Kemba and Al, how do you build around them?

Batum is the 2nd ball handler they were hoping for with lance, I wish we could get some true, pure shooters

[JDR720]

you cant, unless you want to be a 6-12 seed forever. we will rebuild if/when cho/cliff get fired.

[Mystical Apples]

Which brings me back to the question I posted in the game thread.

If you inherent a team where you're told the cornerstone/face players are Kemba and Al, how do you build around them?

Batum is the 2nd ball handler they were hoping for with lance, I wish we could get some true, pure shooters

It's an odd thing to evaluate Clifford harshly when he has to start the worst PG/C combo in the league. I'm pretty harsh on Al but that'll sort itself out in a few months The pg situation though....

[DY_nasty]

I've done a 180 on Cliff since the offseason tbh

[Braggins]

The offense he has tried to implement in the off-season and him benching Al have me back to being open minded about Clifford. I also didn't have any major complaints that I can think of about his game management from last night, which almost never happened last season. I'd kiss his stupid bald head if he put Al on the second unit.

However, if we suck and he hasn't actually improved as a coach then I am all about firing him. It is encouraging that he is already showing signs of improvement in some of his biggest areas of weakness, but we'll have to wait and see. I'm certainly not close to convinced.

Slightly related, how good of a coach is Kevin Ollie? I've heard nothing but good things but I don't really watch college basketball anymore.