GT: We're going to Miami Wed. 10/28 7:30 PM EST

[yosemiteben]

I disagree, I feel like the offensive execution was bad in general and that the second unit was just bad. To me it reads like you are scapegoating Al even though you just were complaining about other guys scapegoating Kemba.

I'm not denying that we went to Al too much, but he wasn't the only problem. Our second unit looked just as bad.

Really what turned the game was the last 4 minutes of the second half. We were down one, then this sequence happened:

3:49 37-41 Justise Winslow makes 24-foot three point jumper (Mario Chalmers assists)
3:24 37-43 Justise Winslow makes driving dunk (Mario Chalmers assists)
1:43 39-48 Chris Bosh makes 25-foot three point jumper (Mario Chalmers assists)
1:12 41-51 Gerald Green makes 24-foot three point jumper (Chris Bosh assists)
0:40 41-54 Gerald Green makes 24-foot three point jumper

[Braggins]

I'm not saying that our execution wasn't bad when Al wasn't in there, but we were still moving and executing much better. It wasn't what it should be, but it was still better as we were at least trying to run plays and get movement, we just weren't very successful. Their was literally no movement at all the entire game when Al was in and the offense was only completely stagnant when we were running Alfense.

I don't think we are really disagreeing about much here YB. The end of second quarter run followed by the complete stagnation of our offense and collapse of our defense in the 3rd lost us the game. The 3rd quarter situation is what really blew the game open for the Heat and that can be mostly directly tied to Al/Alfense. We certainly had other issues, but they were things we could have survived and played through. The 3rd quarter collapse completely screwed us though and it was the same script we've seen over and over with Alfense. When the other team adjusts our entire system collapses. We just need to move on from it.

[yosemiteben]

I don't think we are really disagreeing about much here YB. The end of second quarter run followed by the complete stagnation of our offense and collapse of our defense lost us the game. The 3rd quarter situation is what really blew the game open for the Heat and that can be mostly directly tied to Al/Alfense. We certainly had other issues, but they were things we could have survived and played through. The 3rd quarter collapse completely screwed us though.

We started the 3rd quarter down 10. When Al checked out at the 3:44 mark we were down 11, and he never checked back in. At the end of the 3rd quarter we were down 13, then MIA opened Q4 with this sequence:

11:44 60-76 Gerald Green makes 25-foot three point jumper (Mario Chalmers assists)
11:02 60-78 Chris Bosh makes driving layup
10:26 61-81 Chris Bosh makes three point jumper (Gerald Green assists)
9:48 63-82 Chris Bosh makes free throw 1 of 2
9:48 63-83 Chris Bosh makes free throw 2 of 2

And boom we're down 20. Al had nothing to do with that. He was -1 in the second half.

[KM6]

I'll admit Lin got out of control, but at least he was getting people involved

I guess thats why he had half as many assists as Kemba, because he was doing so much better at getting people involved...

Lin was playing as SG most of the game, while Kemba was playing PG the entire game. None of the Hornets players besides Al and Lin were shooting well, and 2 of Kemba's assists were from assisting Al in the first half and 1 from assisting Lin. Lin was making some passes, but very few of the Hornets' players converted shots.

Not a fair comparison is all I am going to say.

[steady]

I think Kemba is getting unfairly blamed for our lack of ball movement. The ball moved fine when he was in and Al was out. Al did his same old trick all game where all he did was call for post isos and refuse to do anything else. When he was in the game our offense was almost exclusively post isos with no movement from anyone else, not just Kemba. When the post isos stopped working the offense completely stagnated and when the offense stagnates like that the only shots anyone on our team is going to get are bad shots out of isolation. I don't know why anyone is surprised that someone who isn't a great shooter struggles to be efficient in a situation where the only shots he can get are semi contested mid range jumpers out of an isolation. Lin couldn't get anything going either when he was in with Al. We need our PG's to be driving with space and dishing to shooters, not standing around waiting to shoot a bad jump shot after Al's post iso gets shut down. I'm really not sure how there is any question at this point as to who is to blame for our offense stagnating.

One of the most discouraging things for me from last nights game was how Batum plays when he shares the court with Al. There were long stretches where literally every single time Batum got the ball he would immediately look to pass it into Al who was predictably always calling for a post iso. I guess its better than how Kemba responds (trying to iso himself), but still, it was really depressing to see Batum just completely take himself out of the game like that.

Before everyone starts accusing me of making excuses for Kemba, my excuse isn't for Kemba, it is for everyone. EVERYONE looked bad and NO ONE was moving the ball when Al was on the court, but obviously there are a few people who want to act like it was only Kemba.

[DY_nasty]

I'll admit Lin got out of control, but at least he was getting people involved

I guess thats why he had half as many assists as Kemba, because he was doing so much better at getting people involved...

An assist literally means that the ball left one players hand and went directly to another's leading to a basket.

Says nothing about ball movement, rhythm on offense, causing the defense to guard more than just the top of the key, etc. Kemba didn't turn the ball over either - dude is probably the most grateful PG in the league that bad shots aren't a quantified tally in the box score...

[Braggins]

I'll admit Lin got out of control, but at least he was getting people involved

I guess thats why he had half as many assists as Kemba, because he was doing so much better at getting people involved...

Lin was playing as SG most of the game, while Kemba was playing PG the entire game. None of the Hornets players besides Al and Lin were shooting well, and 2 of Kemba's assists were from assisting Al in the first half and 1 from assisting Lin. Lin was making some passes, but very few of the Hornets' players converted shots.

Not a fair comparison is all I am going to say.

I can agree with that and I wasnt trying to make it a Kemba vs. Lin thing. I just also didnt think it was fair to act like Kemba did a terrible job getting people involved compared to Lin. Even if a couple more shots were converted off Lin passes both of their assists numbers were mediocre. People didnt convert on Lins passes and Kemba played most of his minutes in Alfense with everyone standing on the perimeter doing nothing.

[DY_nasty]

I guess thats why he had half as many assists as Kemba, because he was doing so much better at getting people involved...

Lin was playing as SG most of the game, while Kemba was playing PG the entire game. None of the Hornets players besides Al and Lin were shooting well, and 2 of Kemba's assists were from assisting Al in the first half and 1 from assisting Lin. Lin was making some passes, but very few of the Hornets' players converted shots.

Not a fair comparison is all I am going to say.

I can agree with that and I wasnt trying to make it a Kemba vs. Lin thing. I just also didnt think it was fair to act like Kemba did a terrible job getting people involved compared to Lin. Even if a couple more shots were converted off Lin passes both of their assists numbers were mediocre. People didnt convert on Lins passes and Kemba played most of his minutes in Alfense with everyone standing on the perimeter doing nothing.

okay how about this

kemba never uses the baseline or gets the defense moving when things break down. Lin does it instinctively.

fair?

[Braggins]

I'll admit Lin got out of control, but at least he was getting people involved

I guess thats why he had half as many assists as Kemba, because he was doing so much better at getting people involved...

An assist literally means that the ball left one players hand and went directly to another's leading to a basket.

Says nothing about ball movement, rhythm on offense, causing the defense to guard more than just the top of the key, etc. Kemba didn't turn the ball over either - dude is probably the most grateful PG in the league that bad shots aren't a quantified tally in the box score...

I dont really disagree with the first paragraph. As for the second, what kind of shots do you expect from Alfense? Its almost like you are acting like everyone else was cutting, moving, passing, and getting good shots except Kemba when we were running Alfense.

[Braggins]

Lin was playing as SG most of the game, while Kemba was playing PG the entire game. None of the Hornets players besides Al and Lin were shooting well, and 2 of Kemba's assists were from assisting Al in the first half and 1 from assisting Lin. Lin was making some passes, but very few of the Hornets' players converted shots.

Not a fair comparison is all I am going to say.

I can agree with that and I wasnt trying to make it a Kemba vs. Lin thing. I just also didnt think it was fair to act like Kemba did a terrible job getting people involved compared to Lin. Even if a couple more shots were converted off Lin passes both of their assists numbers were mediocre. People didnt convert on Lins passes and Kemba played most of his minutes in Alfense with everyone standing on the perimeter doing nothing.

okay how about this

kemba never uses the baseline or gets the defense moving when things break down. Lin does it instinctively.

fair?

Not really sure. Its hard to compare. Lin was not doing those things when he was on the court with Al, especially in the 3rd. He was standing around doing nothing just like everyone else until it was his turn to dribble around and accomplish nothing.

You break down why our offense sucks better than almost anyone, but you give everyone except Kemba a free pass for not succeeding in our "system" and you continually defend the UNC guy who possibly is the worst chucker the franchise has ever seen.

[DY_nasty]

I dont really disagree with the first paragraph. As for the second, what kind of shots do you expect from Alfense? Its almost like you are acting like everyone else was cutting, moving, passing, and getting good shots except Kemba when we were running Alfense.

I can't blame alfense for last night, I give credit to the Miami defense. They went small, they ran our guys off of the three point line very aggressively, Cliff made an adjustment that I never would've thought he was capable of last year. It was great move by him and we almost came back. I'm not mad about this loss at all, we stuck by a new offensive system and all of its growing pains instead of folding/going back to habit.

At the same time, the new offense has some hurdles. Alfense... well, the biggest hickup was Batum and Al's mesh. I think that Batum/Al/Zeller can work because Zeller can facilitate the ball BACK to Batum on a read better than Marvin ever could (because Marvin is an offensive end-point strictly). I think we'll grow past that eventually but its something that I'm sure is getting addressed. That was the biggest part of the starting unit problems imo

Kemba's passiveness was immediate and jarring from the jump though. If he's not getting the ball, and he won't a lot by the nature of this offense and our new options, then he has to be active. He HAS to be. That means that he's gotta cut, he's gotta learn how to work off of stunts, he's gotta look for the handoff from Al in the post low. He didn't do anything at all. No pressure on the defender. That's scary.

In the 2nd, he didn't assert himself when he got back in the game. If this were to years ago, cool. Now? No. First game of the season man get out there and make your presence felt lol

Not really sure. Its hard to compare. Lin was not doing those things when he was on the court with Al, especially in the 3rd. He was standing around doing nothing just like everyone else until it was his turn to dribble around and accomplish nothing.

You break down why our offense sucks better than almost anyone, but you give everyone except Kemba a free pass for not succeeding in our "system" and you continually defend the UNC guy who is the least efficient chucker the franchise has possibly ever seen.

lol thanks

I dunno... Kemba used to be one of my favorite players in the league but now he just looks ridiculously complacent and happy with where he is.

imo, you're supposed to be harder on the big name players than the guys that are new. Kemba is still missing layups in transition and crying instead of getting back - he's been in the league too long. There are so many little things that Kemba just hasn't incorporated into his game now, so many terrible things that are still a part of his game, that its just hard to ignore.

I was really hoping he'd embrace a Tony Parker type role with the team's offense going forward and I said as much last year but he's too determined to try and break someone's ankles and throw up a brick. If he's missing good shots instead of routinely creating what are essentially wasted possessions than I'd be more happy for him than anyone.

[Braggins]

I agree with about everything in your post, but i really feel like the lack of off-ball movement from Kemba when we are running Alfense is by design because no one else moves either. We are still doing the same stupid set where we throw it into Al and then the closest player cuts through the lane and then everyone stands and watches. Its the same bs over and over again for three seasons now. I dont believe that we have all these other actions that people are supposed to be doing when Al post isos and everyone has just been ignoring them and choosing to stand in a spot and not move instead.

I also feel like the iso happy Kemba comes out when Alfense causes things to stagnate and no one is doing anything. I dont think Kemba wants to be playing like that as it clearly doesnt work.

[DY_nasty]

I agree with about everything in your post, but i really feel like the lack of off-ball movement from Kemba when we are running Alfense is by design because no one else moves either. We are still doing the same stupid set where we throw it into Al and then the closest player cuts through the lane and then everyone stands and watches. Its the same bs over and over again for three seasons now. I dont believe that we have all these other actions that people are supposed to be doing when Al post isos and everyone has just been ignoring them and choosing to stand in a spot and not move instead.

I also feel like the iso happy Kemba comes out when Alfense causes things to stagnate and no one is doing anything. I dont think Kemba wants to be playing like that as it clearly doesnt work.

Fair enough.

I think that going to Al as a first option needs to stop if he's not in the high post though. He did it his first year here and was very successful. I thought he didn't do it last year because of injuries. Yesterday... he didn't even entertain the idea lol. His mid-range shot was very healthy for our offense. No clue why he's avoiding it now to play 1 on 1.

Kemba tho... maybe he was just having bad game and its not indicative of him being the same player he was for the last few years but geez. The defense irks me more than anything else. We don't have the rim defenders for him to be looking behind him wondering where the help was every single he gets beat. It'll be a long season otherwise.

[Braggins]

I agree with about everything in your post, but i really feel like the lack of off-ball movement from Kemba when we are running Alfense is by design because no one else moves either. We are still doing the same stupid set where we throw it into Al and then the closest player cuts through the lane and then everyone stands and watches. Its the same bs over and over again for three seasons now. I dont believe that we have all these other actions that people are supposed to be doing when Al post isos and everyone has just been ignoring them and choosing to stand in a spot and not move instead.

I also feel like the iso happy Kemba comes out when Alfense causes things to stagnate and no one is doing anything. I dont think Kemba wants to be playing like that as it clearly doesnt work.

Fair enough.

I think that going to Al as a first option needs to stop if he's not in the high post though. He did it his first year here and was very successful. I thought he didn't do it last year because of injuries. Yesterday... he didn't even entertain the idea lol. His mid-range shot was very healthy for our offense. No clue why he's avoiding it now to play 1 on 1.

Kemba tho... maybe he was just having bad game and its not indicative of him being the same player he was for the last few years but geez. The defense irks me more than anything else. We don't have the rim defenders for him to be looking behind him wondering where the help was every single he gets beat. It'll be a long season otherwise.

The frustrating part is that we clearly made a point to utilize Al in that manner in the preseason and it seemed to work, but last night he just went straight to the block and called for the ball on almost every play.

I dont think Kemba will ever work in this brand of Alfense. I desperately want to see an extended period of a free flowing offense with Kemba and Lin attacking off drag screens and ball screen action surrounded by floor spacers. I think we have the shooters now to take advantage of their drive and dish capabilities.

[TinmanZBoy]

Asked about starting P.J. Hairstonat small forward, Clifford said he was pleased for the most part with Hairston’s defense, mostly on Miami’s Dwyane Wade.

“I thought he did well. He made one mistake in the first half on Gerald Green where he gave him some space. But I felt like he played with discipline. We need someone who can guard primary scorers and he did a good job on Wade.”

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article41829150.html#storylink=cpy

above is Bonnell reporting, was he with the team on the road?
I saw the video of Clifford post game interview, i could not hear the question clearly, but I thought clifford was talking about Lin's defense...Lin made a mistake guarding Green in the second quarter, gave up a dunk....

[UNCNYC]

We played ok overall. Considering we played a top 3 team in the East in their home debut with limited offensive players and lead a while in the game is good. I think we should stick to the starters for a bit and see where it goes.

[steady]

I can't blame alfense for last night, I give credit to the Miami defense. They went small, they ran our guys off of the three point line very aggressively, Cliff made an adjustment that I never would've thought he was capable of last year. It was great move by him and we almost came back. I'm not mad about this loss at all, we stuck by a new offensive system and all of its growing pains instead of folding/going back to habit.

I agree with a lot of this.

Let me try to state my opposition to Alfense as someone new to Hornets.

It's not that it's bad necessarily - it is that the Hornets could be so much better. As we saw in preseason.

My guess is the Heat and other teams will not be afraid of Jefferson's scoring a lot. It is sort of like the Warriors tactic during the Finals. Let LeBron get his as long as the rest of his crew are not allowed to get going. And that's LBJ we are talking about not Al.

It's not that Al scoring what 8 of our first 10 points is bad, it is that everyone else starts checking out. And stays cold. And they start sharing the ball less themselves

After the preseason, if there is anything to be scared of with Charlotte, my guess is other teams think of us getting hot with threes, getting great ball movement and playing with real cohesion and unselfishness. Alfense in other words plays into what might for many teams be their exact strategy for beating Charlotte. It seemed at least to have achieved the objective last night because it seemed to demoralize other key players -- starting with Kemba but also Lin,
Batum

I can't say for sure that's what caused all the bad no ball movement play - but I would be surprised if it didn't contribute

Just as for the Warriors everyone would have understood if they stayed with the starting line up that included Igoudala and David Lee. It wouldn't have been bad -- it just would not have achieved their potential.
That's what I see with Alfense here

--

I agree, as many of you have said, last nights rotations did not seem bad and especially ending with that group to close seemed very positive for future

Then I listened to Clifford's post game where he basically brushed off a reporters suggestion that maybe they had found something good in the combination of Lin with Batum and Kemba

Saying it had more to do with the 4 and 5 and not our perimeter guys -- even though it was the sudden explosion of 3 ptrs by our "perimeter guys" - many of them assisted - that got that run going

And then Clifford said ending with Al on the bench would be the exception. Reserved for coming back from big deficits.

I know massive lineup changes would be very hard to make happen - and after hearing these comments - I am resigned to Hornets just trying to make best of this situation. But I really believe the team can be better than this

[sidestep]

I can't blame alfense for last night, I give credit to the Miami defense. They went small, they ran our guys off of the three point line very aggressively, Cliff made an adjustment that I never would've thought he was capable of last year.

I agree with everything you said. I want to add that there wasn't any reliable go-to that generated shots when we didn't go through Al. Specifically, the PnR from the wing just wasn't happening. Miami has excellent length with their wing defenders -- I'm thinking Green, Bosh, Winslow -- and they move their feet really well, plus they are swarming the ball handler, along with cutting off the passing lane.

Predictably, when the ball handler got trapped and managed to outlet it back to the top, it would just swing to the opposite wing, and then fed to al in the post. We can bemoan the alfense, but the real problem was the PnR action was neither generating shots or scrambling the defense. I wondered if there needs to be more diagonal cuts by the wing player nearest the ball handler, instead of that player just waiting for the outlet on the 3 pt line from the trapped PnR action. That just gives Miami too much time to recover, and it's exactly what they want to happen. Or moving Al off the block and into the high post sometimes. And perhaps across the paint passes for 3s but Miami's length and athleticism makes that hard.

Compounded by the fact that Miami is getting back in transition D, and is killing you with 3s, and we can't hit any 3s to open up the floor. The game should not have even been as close as it was in the 4th at one pt. We really had no business being that close to making a run before Bosh's dagger 3.

[DY_nasty]

I can't blame alfense for last night, I give credit to the Miami defense. They went small, they ran our guys off of the three point line very aggressively, Cliff made an adjustment that I never would've thought he was capable of last year.

I agree with everything you said. I want to add that there wasn't any reliable go-to that generated shots when we didn't go through Al. Specifically, the PnR from the wing just wasn't happening. Miami has excellent length with their wing defenders -- I'm thinking Green, Bosh, Winslow -- and they move their feet really well, plus they are swarming the ball handler, along with cutting off the passing lane.

Predictably, when the ball handler got trapped and managed to outlet it back to the top, it would just swing to the opposite wing, and then fed to al in the post. We can bemoan the alfense, but the real problem was the PnR action was neither generating shots or scrambling the defense. I wondered if there needs to be more diagonal cuts by the wing player nearest the ball handler, instead of that player just waiting for the outlet on the 3 pt line from the trapped PnR action. That just gives Miami too much time to recover, and it's exactly what they want to happen. Or moving Al off the block and into the high post sometimes. And perhaps across the paint passes for 3s but Miami's length and athleticism makes that hard.

Compounded by the fact that Miami is getting back in transition D, and is killing you with 3s, and we can't hit any 3s to open up the floor. The game should not have even been as close as it was in the 4th at one pt. We really had no business being that close to making a run before Bosh's dagger 3.

You nailed.

The PnR was cool when it worked, it generated a lot of good outside shots - but we weren't hitting when they were good looks (and we had a lot) but the problem is that when we got ran off the line or trapped with the ball, there was no real other option than bring it out and try again lol

Zeller coming in was big because unlike just about everyone else he actually cut hard off the ball and went towards the rim. Everything was a lot of pop action, which I'm not exactly mad at but you gotta adapt. Our offense isn't familiar enough to realize that yet I think. It should get there though.

Also, we're not gonna see too many teams with crazy perimeter D anyways. A good wake up game imo. Learned a lot, finished strong, guys stuck with a gameplan. I'm still pretty positive on the season outlook.

[TinmanZBoy]

simply put, Al is a big weapon on offense, it is Clifford's job to balance everything