Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

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PIF being a **** as usual LOL, after a bunch of bloviating uncovered an interesting idea when he wrote

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. ...I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum.

1 - 'big... baby' -- tell me, Doc, how many actual games have you actually seen Cousins actually play that you can blithely characterize him that way? You got any actual evidence for any of that? for "sissypants", "big... baby", or even "whiner" for that matter?

2 - 'whines less when... winning' -- tell me, Doc, do you have any evidence of any kind for this claim? Or is it just (so-called) common sense climbing up to the papal throne and declaiming ex cathedra?

3. 'I think Wall... can... calm him down' -- tell me, Doc, do you know John Wall? DeMarcus Cousins? Someone who knows them both well?

Oh... and along those same lines, you don't know me either -- so stop calling me names, ok? Even ones obscured by asterisks. I don't call you names, Doc; don't call me names.

But if the real argument is Gortat vs Boogie, I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Sorry, no prize. First off, it's the ability to score *efficiently*, not just to score, that matters. Cousins hasn't shown that ability. Yet, if you miss a shot but are fouled, the attempt isn't counted. If you make, you also go to the line. That's hyper-efficient, no doubt about it. Yet, even with all his foul shots, Cousins is quite inefficient for a big. If it were true that "he still scores through contact", If he has all those hyper-efficient scores, how's that happen?

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PIF being a **** as usual LOL, after a bunch of bloviating uncovered an interesting idea when he wrote

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. ...I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum.

1 - 'big... baby' -- tell me, Doc, how many actual games have you actually seen Cousins actually play that you can blithely characterize him that way? You got any actual evidence for any of that? for "sissypants", "big... baby", or even "whiner" for that matter?

2 - 'whines less when... winning' -- tell me, Doc, do you have any evidence of any kind for this claim? Or is it just (so-called) common sense climbing up to the papal throne and declaiming ex cathedra?

3. 'I think Wall... can... calm him down' -- tell me, Doc, do you know John Wall? DeMarcus Cousins? Someone who knows them both well?

Oh... and along those same lines, you don't know me either -- so stop calling me names, ok? Even ones obscured by asterisks. I don't call you names, Doc; don't call me names.

But if the real argument is Gortat vs Boogie, I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Sorry, no prize. First off, it's the ability to score *efficiently*, not just to score, that matters. Cousins hasn't shown that ability. Yet, if you miss a shot but are fouled, the attempt isn't counted. If you make, you also go to the line. That's hyper-efficient, no doubt about it. Yet, even with all his foul shots, Cousins is quite inefficient for a big. If it were true that "he still scores through contact", If he has all those hyper-efficient scores, how's that happen?

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PIF being a **** as usual LOL, after a bunch of bloviating uncovered an interesting idea when he wrote

I think the ...test case example will be Draymond Green who was a bottom feeder on the list of most foul prone heavy minute players, but whose playoff work not only got him mightily well paid but raised his reputation league wide as a great defender etc etc. If his foul rate drops significantly after his team has won then it tends to go towards b/a's point: winners get more leeway, better calls.

But, Doc, my point was that that just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.draftexpress.com/teamstats.php?year=2015&league=NBA&sort2=DESC&q=&per=game&sort=23. Sort by PFs. Rockets 3d worst. Hornets 2d best. Wizards and Sacramento identical and separated by .3 fouls per game from the Warriors.

As to Green as a test case, a single instance can't work that way in answering this kind of question: you can find a single instance of anything you want. For another, we're supposedly talking about "star calls," not "winner calls" (what are they anyway?).

There is no question that stars get some calls other guys don't get. No one has denied that in this thread. That doesn't mean these calls are significant in determining wins and losses. Keep in mind that pretty much every team has *some* kind of (at least so-called) star.

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. ...I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum.

Doc, what would make you say any of this? You know these guys well?

...I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Hmmm, maybe you were a few degrees extra to the wind when you wrote this post, given the prose...? "the PIFfler"??

As you know perfectly well, it's the ability to score *efficiently*, not just to score, that matters. Cousins doesn't do that -- even though if you miss a shot but are fouled, the attempt isn't counted, and if you make through the contact, you also go to the line. That's hyper-efficient, and doing it a lot would contribute strongly to making Cousins an efficient (not just volume) scorer. Yet, even with all his foul shots, Cousins is quite inefficient for a big.

The guy is tremendously gifted; no one doubts it. He doesn't play the game to the level of his gifts.

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PIF being a **** as usual LOL, after a bunch of bloviating uncovered an interesting idea when he wrote

I think the ...test case example will be Draymond Green who was a bottom feeder on the list of most foul prone heavy minute players, but whose playoff work not only got him mightily well paid but raised his reputation league wide as a great defender etc etc. If his foul rate drops significantly after his team has won then it tends to go towards b/a's point: winners get more leeway, better calls.

But, Doc, my point was that that just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.draftexpress.com/teamstats.php?year=2015&league=NBA&sort2=DESC&q=&per=game&sort=23. Sort by PFs. Rockets 3d worst. Hornets 2d best. Wizards and Sacramento identical and separated by .3 fouls per game from the Warriors.

As to Green as a test case, a single instance can't work that way in answering this kind of question: you can find a single instance of anything you want. For another, we're supposedly talking about "star calls," not "winner calls" (what are they anyway?).

There is no question that stars get some calls other guys don't get. No one has denied that in this thread. That doesn't mean these calls are significant in determining wins and losses. Keep in mind that pretty much every team has *some* kind of (at least so-called) star.

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. ...I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum.

Doc, what would make you say any of this? You know these guys well?

...I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Hmmm, maybe you were a few degrees extra to the wind when you wrote this post, given the prose...? "the PIFfler"??

As you know perfectly well, it's the ability to score *efficiently*, not just to score, that matters. Cousins doesn't do that -- even though if you miss a shot but are fouled, the attempt isn't counted, and if you make through the contact, you also go to the line. That's hyper-efficient, and doing it a lot would contribute strongly to making Cousins an efficient (not just volume) scorer. Yet, even with all his foul shots, Cousins is quite inefficient for a big.

The guy is tremendously gifted; no one doubts it. He doesn't play the game to the level of his gifts.

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PIF being a **** as usual LOL, after a bunch of bloviating uncovered an interesting idea when he wrote...

I don't call you names, Doc; please don't call me names either. Not even ones obscured by asterisks. I didn't call Barelyawake a name; didn't talk about him at all, just about his incorrect claim.

I think the ...test case example will be Draymond Green who was a bottom feeder on the list of most foul prone heavy minute players, but whose playoff work not only got him mightily well paid but raised his reputation league wide as a great defender etc etc. If his foul rate drops significantly after his team has won then it tends to go towards b/a's point: winners get more leeway, better calls.

But, Doc, my point was that that just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.draftexpress.com/teamstats.php?year=2015&league=NBA&sort2=DESC&q=&per=game&sort=23. Sort by PFs. Rockets 3d worst. Hornets 2d best. Wizards and Sacramento identical and separated by .3 fouls per game from the Warriors.

As to Green as a test case, a single instance can't work that way in answering this kind of question: you can find a single instance of anything you want. For another, we're supposedly talking about "star calls," not "winner calls" (what are they anyway?).

There is no question that stars get some calls other guys don't get. No one has denied that in this thread. That doesn't mean these calls are significant in determining wins and losses. Keep in mind that pretty much every team has *some* kind of (at least so-called) star.

Cousins is a big whiner sissypants baby. ...I think Boogie whines less when he is winning. Thus he surely would get better calls on a winning team. And I think Wall is one of the few players who can catch his attention and calm him down once he gets in a rant or a sulk or a pamper wetting tantrum.

Doc, what would make you say any of this? You know these guys well?

...I think the stat that the PIFfler brought out is the one that is more relevant: Cuzzo draws fouls like a gravity well. He's a load to handle, and because of that opponents often have no choice but to hack and hang on, and even then he still scores through the contact. And to me this is more key in the playoffs: the ability to score despite the defense, even when the refs allow more contact etc.

Hmmm, maybe you were a few degrees extra to the wind when you wrote this post, given the prose...? "the PIFfler"??

As you know perfectly well, it's the ability to score *efficiently*, not just to score, that matters. Cousins doesn't do that -- even though if you miss a shot but are fouled, the attempt isn't counted, and if you make through the contact, you also go to the line. That's hyper-efficient, and doing it a lot would contribute strongly to making Cousins an efficient (not just volume) scorer. Yet, even with all his foul shots, Cousins is quite inefficient for a big.

The guy is tremendously gifted; no one doubts it. He doesn't play the game to the level of his gifts.

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3) We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success. Why wouldn't the same be true of a Cousins with whom Wall has built in history?

I keep hearing this. Thing is, it's not true. The poster child example is always Ariza, but in fact his best combined 2 years were w/ the Lakers not with us. Otherwise, no examples.

Wall's quite a good player, certainly one of the top ten, maybe even top five, NBA point guards. That's it. He doesn't transform other players. It's a silly idea.

Consider a single category: 3FG%

No... consider the statement barely made: "We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success."

Is that statement true? No. It's not true. As you know.

As to your list of guys: Gooden has only started shooting 3's since he joined us. Why didn't you include Humphries for that matter? Poor Paul Pierce; now that he's forced to play with a lesser PG and passer like Chris Paul, his 3pt % is way down.

Look, as we all know, 3 pt shooting has gotten more important. It's getting more emphasis in practice. Guys are working on it more. Has the whole league's 3-pt. % gone up over the years? I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

Wall-to-Beal for the corner three was one of the more efficient plays in the league.
Yes. As it was the year before w/ Ariza. Wall is a terrific player; his penetration and passing create good shots for other guys.

...Cousins tends to stand and demand more than pick and roll. And ...He will drift to the mid range and above, but instead of setting a solid pick from that range, he prefers face up an opponent and likes to dribble drive from that spot. Not a sensible play. Still surrounding him with competent outside shooters set up by Wall for sniper shots while putting Cousins one-on-one vs any big man down low seems like it has potential for success. Yes.

Actually, you argue against yourself here. Cousins likes the ball in his hands, which takes it out of Wall's hands. Which is why he turns it over so much. Shoots such a low %. etc.

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3) We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success. Why wouldn't the same be true of a Cousins with whom Wall has built in history?

I keep hearing this. Thing is, it's not true. The poster child example is always Ariza, but in fact his best combined 2 years were w/ the Lakers not with us. Otherwise, no examples.

Wall's quite a good player, certainly one of the top ten, maybe even top five, NBA point guards. That's it. He doesn't transform other players. It's a silly idea.

Consider a single category: 3FG%

No... consider the statement barely made: "We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success."

Is that statement true? No. It's not true. As you know.

As to your list of guys: Gooden has only started shooting 3's since he joined us. Why didn't you include Humphries for that matter? Poor Paul Pierce; now that he's forced to play with a lesser PG and passer like Chris Paul, his 3pt % is way down.

Look, as we all know, 3 pt shooting has gotten more important. It's getting more emphasis in practice. Guys are working on it more. Has the whole league's 3-pt. % gone up over the years? I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

Wall-to-Beal for the corner three was one of the more efficient plays in the league.

Yes. As it was the year before w/ Ariza. Wall is a terrific player; his penetration and passing create good shots for other guys.

...Cousins tends to stand and demand more than pick and roll. And ...He will drift to the mid range and above, but instead of setting a solid pick from that range, he prefers face up an opponent and likes to dribble drive from that spot. Not a sensible play. Still surrounding him with competent outside shooters set up by Wall for sniper shots while putting Cousins one-on-one vs any big man down low seems like it has potential for success. Yes.

Actually, you argue against yourself here. Cousins likes the ball in his hands, which takes it out of Wall's hands. Which is why he turns it over so much. Shoots such a low %. etc.

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Consider a single category: 3FG%

No... consider the statement barely made: "We have seen players have career years because Wall's passes set them up for success."

Is that statement true? No. It's not true. As you know.

As to your list of guys: Gooden has only started shooting 3's since he joined us. Why didn't you include Humphries for that matter? Poor Paul Pierce; now that he's forced to play with a lesser PG and passer like Chris Paul, his 3pt % is way down.

Look, as we all know, 3 pt shooting has gotten more important. It's getting more emphasis in practice. Guys are working on it more. Has the whole league's 3-pt. % gone up over the years? I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

Wall-to-Beal for the corner three was one of the more efficient plays in the league.

Yes. As it was the year before w/ Ariza. Wall is a terrific player; his penetration and passing create good shots for other guys.

...Cousins tends to stand and demand more than pick and roll. And ...He will drift to the mid range and above, but instead of setting a solid pick from that range, he prefers face up an opponent and likes to dribble drive from that spot. Not a sensible play. Still surrounding him with competent outside shooters set up by Wall for sniper shots while putting Cousins one-on-one vs any big man down low seems like it has potential for success. Yes.

Actually, you argue against yourself here. Cousins likes the ball in his hands, which takes it out of Wall's hands. Which is why he turns it over so much. Shoots such a low %. etc.

[nate33]

Look, as we all know, 3 pt shooting has gotten more important. It's getting more emphasis in practice. Guys are working on it more. Has the whole league's 3-pt. % gone up over the years? I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

3P% has actually dropped slightly over the past 8 years or so from the .365 range to the .350 range. But I don't think it means that people are getting worse at shooting the 3-ball. I suspect it's merely that more marginal shooters are taking the shot more often.

[AFM]

PIF with the ultra-rare 8x in a row post. I still don't know who was quoting who in half of them. Well done.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Look, as we all know, 3 pt shooting has gotten more important. It's getting more emphasis in practice. Guys are working on it more. Has the whole league's 3-pt. % gone up over the years? I haven't checked, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't.

3P% has actually dropped slightly over the past 8 years or so from the .365 range to the .350 range. But I don't think it means that people are getting worse at shooting the 3-ball. I suspect it's merely that more marginal shooters are taking the shot more often.

I don't think that's the correct way to look at the data. Since the league moved the 3pt line back out to 23-9 (22-0 at the corners), 3pt% has fluctuated year to year within a narrow band -- from a low of .339 in 1998-99 to a high of .367 in 2008-09. That .367 eight seasons ago sticks out as an atypical year for 3pt accuracy:

2005-06 -- .359
2006-07 -- .359
2007-08 -- .358
2008-09 -- .367
2009-10 -- .354
2010-11 -- .359
2011-12 -- .349
2012-13 -- .359
2013-14 -- .360
2014-15 -- .350

That .367 eight years ago was two standard deviations above average. Last season was about half a standard deviation below average. I think the correct interpretation is that the league has established an overall level for 3pt shooting accuracy. Basically, it's .354 plus or minus .006 each year.

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PIF with the ultra-rare 8x in a row post. I still don't know who was quoting who in half of them. Well done.

Apologies for the multiple posts. I'm in an Air B'nB in East Nashville, and the wifi is... not so hot. I got a lot of 504 didn't load messages. Apologies.

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Lets please stop wrangling over this minor topic of "star calls." If I'm responsible for continuing it, my bad -- I said I was done, and then Doc decided to give me a hard time for some reason; I got miffed and forgot my own intention -- not worth worrying about. Lets go beat the Bucks tonight!

Go Wizards!

(I'll have to miss the game, alas -- can't visit Nashville w/o going to the Grand Ole Opry; tonight's our night for that.)

[doclinkin]

Lets please stop wrangling over this minor topic of "star calls." If I'm responsible for continuing it, my bad -- I said I was done, and then Doc decided to give me a hard time for some reason; I got miffed and forgot my own intention -- not worth worrying about. Lets go beat the Bucks tonight!

Go Wizards!

(I'll have to miss the game, alas -- can't visit Nashville w/o going to the Grand Ole Opry; tonight's our night for that.)

LOL I loved reading this unravelling, made me grin.

Look we're all (fill in the asterisks) on this site, with rare exceptions. It made me grin that you and BA were getting into it, because neither of you like to let a point drop, where BA gets amusingly more caustic and dismissive you get pedantic and arrogant -- and woo! Everybody wins Nothing personal, just made me happy to watch the dustup. I like both of you (and yeah It'd be cool to go to PIT one of these years). I just don't mind being a **** for my own amusement.

Oh and you owe me a cotdang poem so I got no use for you until then.

My point on all this was I'm ambivalent on Cousins. I'm not sure if Wall makes him better. Cousins clogs the lane, or takes inefficient shots when outside the lane. Gortat is a pro's pro, maximizes his talents, works hard in the weight room, plays within his role, and is good for team chemistry. Cousins doesn't properly channel his considerable talent to what it is he does best. But with what he does well, he's unstoppable once he gets it going.

My knowledge on the personality stuff? I watched him in Kentucky, where he was always a risk to meltdown. Many times John was the guy who pulled him aside and got his attention and talked him out of a tech. His body language is awful at times and seems to draw refs attention. Countless articles at the time talked about his uncontrolled tantrums on court etc. The pro games I've watched showed the same, though he was less vocally demonstrative.

I do believe Wall improves the outside shooting of perimeter players. Is that true for other positions? IDK. Maybe not. I Gortat suggests Wall makes him better in the PnR, likens him to Nash in that regard. Could Cousins replicate or improve on Gortat's role? Well, he doesn't set as firm a pick, and yeah likes to demand the ball and create for himself, which he doesn't do terribly efficiently. He does score better than Gortat when in traffic, where Gortat needs a head of steam to get up and finish. For a running offense I think I'd take Gortat, he's in shape and a willing runner end to end, Cousins doesn't seem to have the same urgency. In the playoffs it seems like the game slows down, more hacking is allowed, and more half court sets get run, so maybe Boogie plays better, we won't know that until Cousins ever makes it into the post season . I'd be curious to see Cousins next to Wall, who is the one player in the league he seems to like and admire the most (according to quotes and articles on their friendship) to see if he could influence him to play within his most efficient skill set. I'm not sure though if the cost of acquiring him would be worth it. Unless, to nates point, he melts down sufficiently that the team gets rid of him on the cheap. Then I might consider it, under b/a's point: This team as it is now isn't winning a championship, so adding more talent is key. Gortat seems to be at the top of his game, I don;t see where he improves much where Cousins has more 'top' to that game, plenty of room for improvement, but obvious ways to do so. Just bad habits. Easy fixes. Akin to Beal and his long two's.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Washington needs an athletic PF or a young stretch PF. The Lakers need a C who is much more mobile than Roy Hibbert.

How about this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pfcgxra

Dejuan Blair, Garrett Temple, 1st Round pick for Ryan Kelly and Larry Nance Jr?

[nate33]

Washington needs an athletic PF or a young stretch PF. The Lakers need a C who is much more mobile than Roy Hibbert.

How about this: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pfcgxra

Dejuan Blair, Garrett Temple, 1st Round pick for Ryan Kelly and Larry Nance Jr?

Do we have to give up a 1st round pick? How about just Blair for Kelly and be done with it?

[nuposse04]

If we are giving up a 1st it better mean a big like Ryan Anderson or Ed Davis is coming back. Not Ryan friggin Kelly. Still think Cody Zeller might be a reasonable target pending how long Marvin Williams starts for CHA (who is playing pretty damn well in space, but for how long...who knows).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If we are giving up a 1st it better mean a big like Ryan Anderson or Ed Davis is coming back. Not Ryan friggin Kelly. Still think Cody Zeller might be a reasonable target pending how long Marvin Williams starts for CHA (who is playing pretty damn well in space, but for how long...who knows).

Nance Jr?

[Ruzious]

If we are giving up a 1st it better mean a big like Ryan Anderson or Ed Davis is coming back. Not Ryan friggin Kelly. Still think Cody Zeller might be a reasonable target pending how long Marvin Williams starts for CHA (who is playing pretty damn well in space, but for how long...who knows).

Nance Jr?

I hope he does well because his dad was fun to watch, but I was surprised he was drafted - let alone go late 1st. He's smallish for a PF, played for a small school, and didn't improve in his senior year. Yes, he was coming off a bad injury, but maybe that means he'll be injury-prone.

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Doc -- no worries. And, yes, I do owe you a sestina. Soon....