ImageImageImageImageImage

GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM

Moderators: Kilroy, Danny Darko, TyCobb

User avatar
iamworthy
RealGM
Posts: 20,137
And1: 8,916
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Location: Ring City!!!
   

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#481 » by iamworthy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:42 am

ALL HAIL wrote:
dockingsched wrote:Honestly to me the issue with Russell right now is that the offense is stagnant limiting his ability to use his vision and he's surrounded by a bunch of players that prefer to ball stop and iso.

I spent the whole game watching him on and off the ball and it's so frustrating watching him get totally ignored off the ball cause Kobe or someone else going on an isolation for the millionth time and then when he does get to run the PNR everyone is standing around and either missing s good shot or not even being ready for the pass. He's gotta be so frustrated. He deserves better.

The Lakers have obviously made a conscious decision with regard to his development that it's best he be brought along as a fourth option.

Gotta love upper management.

PS: He needs to play with the ball doc, even if he isn't being aggressive. The Lakers are grooming him as a PG, and, like you said, he'll almost never see the ball if he doesn't bring it up the court himself.


4th option? I dont think that's what upper management wants at all. Thats why they are putting him back at the point.
Image
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 54,449
And1: 10,252
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#482 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:45 am

dipstick wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Kobe's going to will this team to some wins but I bet he runs off your Rip Hamilton and he also will keep the Lakers competitive but not good enough to make the playoffs. Bad pick territory.

That's the WORST.


Bad pick territory isn't so bad for the Lakers because it won't be our pick to keep. We're not bad enough to keep a top 3 pick so might as well get the youngsters some competitive winning experience even if we don't make the playoffs. getting over 30 wins in the West with 3 1st and 2nd year players on the starting lineup will be a good sign and will be enticing potential incoming free agents who want to be a game changer for our team.

Going back to the game, the way we lost hurts. 13 3s from Kobe is obviously just wrong. But if and when our starters get their chemistry, this team will be good. The bench scoring is probably one of the best in the league. We just have to figure out the bench frontline rotation.


Good points.

Last night might have been a win if Nick Young (4-7 on threes) takes a couple or three more threes and Kobe (3-13) takes 2 or 3 less.

Kobe also missed a key FT late in the game. I thought he had tired legs, perhaps.
Tre Johnson is the future of the Wizards.
gts1
Starter
Posts: 2,446
And1: 1,232
Joined: May 20, 2014
Location: Los Angeles
 

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#483 » by gts1 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:47 am

Dilly wrote:Theirs no guarantee any top prospects will get you over hump, but u still have to take that chance. That's what drafting is risk-taking

well we'll just have to agree to disagree... make you deal, you can cheer for them to get a top 3 pick this year and I won't rub it in when they win...lol

please just don't be one of those crazed fans that blasts the players and coaching staff for being successful when they do win a game... that drives me nuts... haha
Wife: "you haven't heard a single thing I said"
Me: that's a funny way to start a conversation...
ALL HAIL
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,474
And1: 1,213
Joined: Dec 27, 2005

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#484 » by ALL HAIL » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:48 am

iamworthy wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:
dockingsched wrote:Honestly to me the issue with Russell right now is that the offense is stagnant limiting his ability to use his vision and he's surrounded by a bunch of players that prefer to ball stop and iso.

I spent the whole game watching him on and off the ball and it's so frustrating watching him get totally ignored off the ball cause Kobe or someone else going on an isolation for the millionth time and then when he does get to run the PNR everyone is standing around and either missing s good shot or not even being ready for the pass. He's gotta be so frustrated. He deserves better.

The Lakers have obviously made a conscious decision with regard to his development that it's best he be brought along as a fourth option.

Gotta love upper management.

PS: He needs to play with the ball doc, even if he isn't being aggressive. The Lakers are grooming him as a PG, and, like you said, he'll almost never see the ball if he doesn't bring it up the court himself.


4th option? I dont think that's what upper management wants at all. Thats why they are putting him back at the point.

I'm not sure you're counting.

He's clearly the fourth option behind Randle, Kobe, and Clarkson. Is that really even debatable?

On top of that, management signed a guy in Lou Williams who is also ahead of Russell in the pecking order.

The reality is that Russell was a one man wrecking crew last year at OSU; he had no other legitimate offensive threats on his team.

Now, when you couple the facts that he's never played PG full-time ever, and he's forced, by virtue of the roster construction, to turn down the "#1 option swag" he had last year, he's trying to find himself.

People forget (correct me if I'm wrong), Russell was only a top 20-30 prospect coming out of highschool. That whole "fake swag" isht he played up to during the draft process was only a byproduct of him having the greenlight his freshman year on a bad OSU squad. Him getting that kind of elite attention was new to him.

Because he's never played PG full-time and the roster is made up of guys who will not wait for him
to find his offense, he won't be "OSU Russell" for a very, very longtime.

I like Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson, but their too good for Russell right now. He's intimidated by all these guards on this team who have used his presence, as a #2 overall pick, to amp up their own games.

Russell's only 19, but, as we all agree, he should get substantial minutes. Regardless, both Williams and Clarkson are the ultra-aggressive types, so he'll be outshined on many, many nights.

This whole having teammates thing is really a shock to his system. He really wants to show off his dribbling skills and set up his jumper, but he's intimidated by gold jerseys.
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#485 » by Kilroy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:40 pm

Russell is clearly down the offensive pecking order, but I'm not sure how much of that is the system and how much of that is just him not figuring out how to establish himself... Clarkson for example wasn't featured at first, but just went out there and made something happen. He was a black hole for a bit, but it served it's purpose. Russell doesn't look comfortable to me taking on that challenge. Sure it could be that unlike Clarkson, Russell has to deal with a much more talented lineup. In fairness, today, Clarkson, Randle and Kobe are all more deserving of the touches than him...
It's the classic dilemma with young players.... How do you give them enough looks to develop them without destroying the offense in the process?
The simple answer is, the offense gets manipulated to give them a few quality looks, and the player makes the most of them... Right now I think Russell's getting some quality looks but isn't being aggressive enough with them. So I think it's at least mostly on him.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
User avatar
TylersLakers
RealGM
Posts: 10,961
And1: 2,867
Joined: Jan 20, 2006
Location: Winnipeg Canada
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#486 » by TylersLakers » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:03 pm

EArl wrote:Okafor with a great first night BTW...


Yes and we (everyone who wanted Okafor) knew this would happen. He's ready for pro basketball. Russell is going to take some time and people need to have patience and not compare box scores of Russell and Okafor.

Will Russell have a greater impact on the game over time throughout the course of his career than Okafor? That's what the Lakers are banking on.
Image
User avatar
TylersLakers
RealGM
Posts: 10,961
And1: 2,867
Joined: Jan 20, 2006
Location: Winnipeg Canada
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#487 » by TylersLakers » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:05 pm

Kilroy wrote:Russell is clearly down the offensive pecking order, but I'm not sure how much of that is the system and how much of that is just him not figuring out how to establish himself... Clarkson for example wasn't featured at first, but just went out there and made something happen. He was a black hole for a bit, but it served it's purpose. Russell doesn't look comfortable to me taking on that challenge. Sure it could be that unlike Clarkson, Russell has to deal with a much more talented lineup. In fairness, today, Clarkson, Randle and Kobe are all more deserving of the touches than him...
It's the classic dilemma with young players.... How do you give them enough looks to develop them without destroying the offense in the process?
The simple answer is, the offense gets manipulated to give them a few quality looks, and the player makes the most of them... Right now I think Russell's getting some quality looks but isn't being aggressive enough with them. So I think it's at least mostly on him.


Clarkson is just so headstrong and plays with such a chip on his shoulder. If he's not being featured in the game, he'll make up for it at some point -- good or bad.
Image
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#488 » by Kilroy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:18 pm

TylersLakers wrote:
Kilroy wrote:Russell is clearly down the offensive pecking order, but I'm not sure how much of that is the system and how much of that is just him not figuring out how to establish himself... Clarkson for example wasn't featured at first, but just went out there and made something happen. He was a black hole for a bit, but it served it's purpose. Russell doesn't look comfortable to me taking on that challenge. Sure it could be that unlike Clarkson, Russell has to deal with a much more talented lineup. In fairness, today, Clarkson, Randle and Kobe are all more deserving of the touches than him...
It's the classic dilemma with young players.... How do you give them enough looks to develop them without destroying the offense in the process?
The simple answer is, the offense gets manipulated to give them a few quality looks, and the player makes the most of them... Right now I think Russell's getting some quality looks but isn't being aggressive enough with them. So I think it's at least mostly on him.


Clarkson is just so headstrong and plays with such a chip on his shoulder. If he's not being featured in the game, he'll make up for it at some point -- good or bad.


Yep. I know Russell's headstrong too, but he doesn't seem to have that chip... Which is a cause for concern IMO, and why I'm not ready to blame Scott, Kobe, or whoever for his struggles. IMO Russell just needs to want it a little more.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
ALL HAIL
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,474
And1: 1,213
Joined: Dec 27, 2005

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#489 » by ALL HAIL » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:25 pm

The Lakers took some risks in bringing in guys that could stunt his development.

Call Russell whatever position you'd like, but CLEARLY he's had his greatest success by dominating the ball. Can he spotup? Yes, but, until things change in the future, he's a player who likes to make plays with his expansive dribble.

The Lakers have taken a risk in thinking that Russell is a good fit next to Clarkson, who's also a guy accustomed to playing with the ball, and Williams, who will get his shots up even if he played on the Dream Team.

Throw in a "I'ma prove I still got it" Kobe, and what you have is a perfect storm for the kid to be relegated to 3 & D (shooting and dribbling).
Slava
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 61,128
And1: 33,799
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#490 » by Slava » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:32 pm

I can honestly see Russell playing point like Kobe played point, a lot of flashy passes to compile double digit assist games coupled with some timely scoring. The ugly side of it will also be a few more turnovers than you feel comfortable with until he gets a hang of it at NBA level.

Only difference, I can see him balancing passing with scoring better than Kobe did when he went into full scale facilitator mode.
:king: + :angry: = :wizard:
User avatar
iamworthy
RealGM
Posts: 20,137
And1: 8,916
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Location: Ring City!!!
   

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#491 » by iamworthy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:53 pm

ALL HAIL wrote:I'm not sure you're counting.

He's clearly the fourth option behind Randle, Kobe, and Clarkson. Is that really even debatable?

On top of that, management signed a guy in Lou Williams who is also ahead of Russell in the pecking order.

The reality is that Russell was a one man wrecking crew last year at OSU; he had no other legitimate offensive threats on his team.

Now, when you couple the facts that he's never played PG full-time ever, and he's forced, by virtue of the roster construction, to turn down the "#1 option swag" he had last year, he's trying to find himself.

People forget (correct me if I'm wrong), Russell was only a top 20-30 prospect coming out of highschool. That whole "fake swag" isht he played up to during the draft process was only a byproduct of him having the greenlight his freshman year on a bad OSU squad. Him getting that kind of elite attention was new to him.

Because he's never played PG full-time and the roster is made up of guys who will not wait for him
to find his offense, he won't be "OSU Russell" for a very, very longtime.

I like Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson, but their too good for Russell right now. He's intimidated by all these guards on this team who have used his presence, as a #2 overall pick, to amp up their own games.

Russell's only 19, but, as we all agree, he should get substantial minutes. Regardless, both Williams and Clarkson are the ultra-aggressive types, so he'll be outshined on many, many nights.

This whole having teammates thing is really a shock to his system. He really wants to show off his dribbling skills and set up his jumper, but he's intimidated by gold jerseys.


Are you talking about taking shots? If so, I agree with you. But I'm not talking about shots. The fact that they are putting him back at PG after one game tells me somebody in upper management didn't like what they saw last game. Byron is pretty head strong so it's hard to believe that he would change his mind after one game. For some reason by option I thought you meant pecking order. Which is why I mentioned him getting his strips back as the PG... Since the PG is the conductor of the offense.
Image
Pinoy cchio
Sophomore
Posts: 198
And1: 31
Joined: Jul 12, 2015

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#492 » by Pinoy cchio » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:00 pm

If B.Scott will allow Isolation Offense, why draft a PG ?

Like I said before, between Kobe and Randlle, ball movement will be a premium !!!
ALL HAIL
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,474
And1: 1,213
Joined: Dec 27, 2005

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#493 » by ALL HAIL » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:20 pm

I hear you -- semantics.

Anytime I use the term "options" I'm always referring to the the top three guys on each unit who will be assigned the task of carrying the offensive load. The top three options would be the ones being the most aggressive offensively during crunch time while role players react to them.

Pecking order means the same thing to me. It refers to who's expected to make things happen the most offensively.

A point guard, by virtue of just being a point guard, doesn't make him an automatic top three offensive option, and it doesn't move a player higher up the pecking order either, to me.

I remember guys like Nate McMillan and Avery Johnson being clear fifth options on whatever unit they played, and they were great facilitators.

Trust me, the Lakers strategically put him in this position as a fourth option. It ain't accidental.

They know the boy is 19. They know he has great complimentary elements of his game.

They want to give him minutes, but they don't expect him to get lots of shots ... that's why (I agree with you) the upper management wants him back at PG -- they need him to be engaged, and even if he's not shooting alot, the best way to engage a "dribbler" sometimes is to let them bring the ball up and initiate.
User avatar
The Prodigy
Starter
Posts: 2,362
And1: 469
Joined: Jul 17, 2004
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#494 » by The Prodigy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:28 pm

Slava wrote:I can honestly see Russell playing point like Kobe played point, a lot of flashy passes to compile double digit assist games coupled with some timely scoring. The ugly side of it will also be a few more turnovers than you feel comfortable with until he gets a hang of it at NBA level.

Only difference, I can see him balancing passing with scoring better than Kobe did when he went into full scale facilitator mode.


I don't agree with this at all. D'Angelo has shown a willingness (at OSU and so far as a pro) to kick the ball ahead and to make the hockey assist pass.

There are legitimate concerns about Russell, which we all knew about when we drafted him, but the way he approaches playmaking is not one of them, at least to me.
Dilly
Junior
Posts: 462
And1: 73
Joined: Nov 13, 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#495 » by Dilly » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:49 pm

gts1 wrote:
Dilly wrote:Theirs no guarantee any top prospects will get you over hump, but u still have to take that chance. That's what drafting is risk-taking

well we'll just have to agree to disagree... make you deal, you can cheer for them to get a top 3 pick this year and I won't rub it in when they win...lol

please just don't be one of those crazed fans that blasts the players and coaching staff for being successful when they do win a game... that drives me nuts... haha

Lol deal regardless of win/losses I just wanna see player progression. Because I know our future is verrryyy bright with Kobe contract coming off books
User avatar
DEEP3CL
RealGM
Posts: 27,899
And1: 3,207
Joined: Jul 23, 2005
Location: LOS ANGELES,CA.
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#496 » by DEEP3CL » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:40 am

Dilly wrote:
DEEP3CL wrote:
Dilly wrote:I get what you're saying in not wanting the looonnnggg rebuild. But how do you know what draft classes will be weak and you haven't even seen the prospects play at the collegiate level? Somebody can surprise you
Because I've seen them on the AAU circuit and college isn't all that much different than high school....except that the college coaches are strict control freaks. Trust I'm seeing what's out there and I get insider information on recruits through scouting services. Some have already said that this 2015 and 2016 high school classes are some of the weakest in quite some time.

I'm going to take the wait and see approach because prospects do improve their gm. So you're saying if we keep our pick u wouldn't want a shot at Simmons, Ingram, Jaylen?
Of course I would take those guys, but the reality of it is we're not coming close to keeping that pick. It means we'll have to finish with 20 or less wins to do so, and the odds are this team can win more than that so the pick is good as gone....you can bank on that.
VETERAN LAKERS FAN

SmartWentCrazy wrote:It's extremely unlikely that they end up in the top 3.They're probably better off trying to win and giving Philly the 8th pick than tanking and giving them the 4th.
User avatar
John Long
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,332
And1: 1,026
Joined: Oct 09, 2012
     

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#497 » by John Long » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:42 am

TylersLakers wrote:
Kilroy wrote:Russell is clearly down the offensive pecking order, but I'm not sure how much of that is the system and how much of that is just him not figuring out how to establish himself... Clarkson for example wasn't featured at first, but just went out there and made something happen. He was a black hole for a bit, but it served it's purpose. Russell doesn't look comfortable to me taking on that challenge. Sure it could be that unlike Clarkson, Russell has to deal with a much more talented lineup. In fairness, today, Clarkson, Randle and Kobe are all more deserving of the touches than him...
It's the classic dilemma with young players.... How do you give them enough looks to develop them without destroying the offense in the process?
The simple answer is, the offense gets manipulated to give them a few quality looks, and the player makes the most of them... Right now I think Russell's getting some quality looks but isn't being aggressive enough with them. So I think it's at least mostly on him.


Clarkson is just so headstrong and plays with such a chip on his shoulder. If he's not being featured in the game, he'll make up for it at some point -- good or bad.


I like the fact that he is developing in spite of Byron
"...things are never as good or as bad as they seem in the moment in time." - Kobe
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#498 » by Kilroy » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:11 pm

John Long wrote:
TylersLakers wrote:
Kilroy wrote:Russell is clearly down the offensive pecking order, but I'm not sure how much of that is the system and how much of that is just him not figuring out how to establish himself... Clarkson for example wasn't featured at first, but just went out there and made something happen. He was a black hole for a bit, but it served it's purpose. Russell doesn't look comfortable to me taking on that challenge. Sure it could be that unlike Clarkson, Russell has to deal with a much more talented lineup. In fairness, today, Clarkson, Randle and Kobe are all more deserving of the touches than him...
It's the classic dilemma with young players.... How do you give them enough looks to develop them without destroying the offense in the process?
The simple answer is, the offense gets manipulated to give them a few quality looks, and the player makes the most of them... Right now I think Russell's getting some quality looks but isn't being aggressive enough with them. So I think it's at least mostly on him.


Clarkson is just so headstrong and plays with such a chip on his shoulder. If he's not being featured in the game, he'll make up for it at some point -- good or bad.


I like the fact that he is developing in spite of Byron


Byron put the ball in a rookie's hands and trusted him enough to keep it there for better or worse... Clarkson's development is a direct result of that trust. Regardless of agenda, you simply cannot make a case for Scott having nothing to do with what Clarkson has achieved so far... It was his job to develop our prospects and so far he's done it...

IMO the monkey-wrench in the works is Kobe along with the FO adding vets like Hibbert, bass and Lou... We were never going to have a Laker's style successful season, those guys are in a bad situation and their PT should be going to more prospects.

So you have a coach right now with essentially two completely different rosters... The young guys and aged rookies like Huertas, and the vets that need wins... It's an awkward combo, and one any coach would have trouble managing...
Phil would not play the young guys and bitch about the pieces he had until they were traded...
MDA would probably sit all the vets but Kobe and run him into the ground while he tried to use the young legs to recapture 5sol...

Considering Scott didn't have Kobe for many games this preseason, and by all estimates, Kobe looked good... I think Kobe suckingandchucking is the main reason Scott looks like he has no plan on offense... The ball needs to come out of Kobe's hands and someone like Lou Williams needs to become a consistent threat from more places on the floor.

If it was me, I'd bring Kobe's minutes way down and try subbing in Lou or Young earlier or both. And the first time Young takes a stupid shot, he's benched for like 4 games.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
Michael Lucky
RealGM
Posts: 15,140
And1: 6,789
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#499 » by Michael Lucky » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:15 pm

Kilroy wrote:
John Long wrote:
TylersLakers wrote:
Clarkson is just so headstrong and plays with such a chip on his shoulder. If he's not being featured in the game, he'll make up for it at some point -- good or bad.


I like the fact that he is developing in spite of Byron


Byron put the ball in a rookie's hands and trusted him enough to keep it there for better or worse... Clarkson's development is a direct result of that trust. Regardless of agenda, you simply cannot make a case for Scott having nothing to do with what Clarkson has achieved so far... It was his job to develop our prospects and so far he's done it...



Clakrson got development time because of all our injuries last year. Scott had no choice but to play him at that point.
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: GT: T-Wolves @ Lakers October 28, 2015 7:30PM 

Post#500 » by Kilroy » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:33 pm

Michael Lucky wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
John Long wrote:
I like the fact that he is developing in spite of Byron


Byron put the ball in a rookie's hands and trusted him enough to keep it there for better or worse... Clarkson's development is a direct result of that trust. Regardless of agenda, you simply cannot make a case for Scott having nothing to do with what Clarkson has achieved so far... It was his job to develop our prospects and so far he's done it...



Clakrson got development time because of all our injuries last year. Scott had no choice but to play him at that point.


There's always a choice...
Clarkson started every game after January 23rd... Lin wasn't injured until April. Price was starting until Clarkson took over... He wasn't injured until March.

Clarkson was starting because he was the best option and despite him being a low draft rookie, Scott recognized that and despite all the calls for Lin, he stayed with Clarkson.

Not sure how this could be anything but a positive for Scott.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...

Return to Los Angeles Lakers