Better team this season= Utah Jazz or Sacramento Kings?

[Takingbaconback]

This is still pretty close. I believe WCS is the X factor and if he can develop quickly, I will have to go with the Kings

[Stoked]

Favors is great defensively. Everyone raves about Gobert but Favors is the defensive key to this team. Jazz's defensive efficiency is better and opp FG% is lower with Favors on the court than Gobert (this season).

So we should disregard an entire season of evidence and focus on a sample of three games instead? Are you serious? If so: Gobert is way better than Favors on offense. Just look at the on/off splits for ORTG and eFG%.

Go look at the games last year. Favors is what makes it all work. Other wise players would challenge Gobert and dish off left and right. Favors is the lynchpin.

Kind of like that saying "Behind every good man is a good woman" lol.

Favors allows Gobert to be Gobert. Go look at games and disect it all if you want. Gobert is the better defensive player but Favors makes it all work. Those are not the same things.

[DarthDiggler69]

Kings

Thats if Cousin's injury isnt major

[The-Power]

Go look at the games last year. Favors is what makes it all work. Other wise players would challenge Gobert and dish off left and right. Favors is the lynchpin.

The on/off splits clearly suggest that Gobert is the more impactful defender and this is what it's all about. Gobert anchors your defense and there is no evidence allowing a different conclusion. I mean, why did you use the data of three games to prop up Favors and the very same data from last year now seems to be not indicative at all? Looks like you're trying hard to downplay what Gobert did for you last year in order to give more credit to Favors than he actually deserves.

But let's have some fun using WOWY data: how do you explain that with Gobert and without Favors (1420 minutes) the opponent's eFG% was at .478 (.517 TS%), similar to the overall percentage with Gobert on the court? Meanwhile with Favors and without Gobert, the opponent's eFG% is at 0.512 (.546 TS%). Apparently, Gobert is able to anchor the defense without Favors without losing anything significant while a Favors-led defense struggles significantly more with Gobert on the bench.

I feel stupid for even going into detail because it should not be possible for anyone - and especially for a Jazz fan - to believe that Favors is more important for the Jazz' defense than Gobert. I caught a lot of games last year and to my eyes it was clear who the by far best and most important defensive player on your team was. But confronted with such a load of unambiguous evidence one should seriously question his eyes in case one comes to a different conclusion. And if this is the case one better comes up with a damn convincing analysis as to why and, more importantly, how the evidence paints a completely wrong picture. I suspect one can't come up with such an analysis, though.

[jazzfan1971]

Favor's defense is better because of Gobert. Because due to Gobert Favors can play PF. Favors is a rather lackluster defender as a center, but, a very strong one as a PF. He's got legit size and legit speed for the position. He can even switch out on smaller players for short stretches effectively.

Gobert is the linchpin, but, his presence makes some of the other Jazz players defense better.

[MalonesElbows]

Favors is great defensively. Everyone raves about Gobert but Favors is the defensive key to this team. Jazz's defensive efficiency is better and opp FG% is lower with Favors on the court than Gobert (this season).

So we should disregard an entire season of evidence and focus on a sample of three games instead? Are you serious? If so: Gobert is way better than Favors on offense. Just look at the on/off splits for ORTG and eFG%.

Go look at the games last year. Favors is what makes it all work. Other wise players would challenge Gobert and dish off left and right. Favors is the lynchpin.

Kind of like that saying "Behind every good man is a good woman" lol.

Favors allows Gobert to be Gobert. Go look at games and disect it all if you want. Gobert is the better defensive player but Favors makes it all work. Those are not the same things.

lol wut? Favors played center for two years before Gobert came along and was never above average. Even in lineups without Kanter the defense wasn't very good. There is a reason a player (Gobert) that averages 8 points a game will be given a max extension next year.

[Takingbaconback]

Yeah I think at least 75-80% of Utah's defense is Gobert. If it was just Favors + average center, the defense could fall off a cliff but average PF + Gobert is still a top 5 defense imo

[stitches]

Go look at the games last year. Favors is what makes it all work. Other wise players would challenge Gobert and dish off left and right. Favors is the lynchpin.

The on/off splits clearly suggest that Gobert is the more impactful defender and this is what it's all about. Gobert anchors your defense and there is no evidence allowing a different conclusion. I mean, why did you use the data of three games to prop up Favors and the very same data from last year now seems to be not indicative at all? Looks like you're trying hard to downplay what Gobert did for you last year in order to give more credit to Favors than he actually deserves.

But let's have some fun using WOWY data: how do you explain that with Gobert and without Favors (1420 minutes) the opponent's eFG% was at .478 (.517 TS%), similar to the overall percentage with Gobert on the court? Meanwhile with Favors and without Gobert, the opponent's eFG% is at 0.512 (.546 TS%). Apparently, Gobert is able to anchor the defense without Favors without losing anything significant while a Favors-led defense struggles significantly more with Gobert on the bench.

I feel stupid for even going into detail because it should not be possible for anyone - and especially for a Jazz fan - to believe that Favors is more important for the Jazz' defense than Gobert. I caught a lot of games last year and to my eyes it was clear who the by far best and most important defensive player on your team was. But confronted with such a load of unambiguous evidence one should seriously question his eyes in case one comes to a different conclusion. And if this is the case one better comes up with a damn convincing analysis as to why and, more importantly, how the evidence paints a completely wrong picture. I suspect one can't come up with such an analysis, though.

I present to you Enes Kanter. Rudy played a lot fewer minutes with Enes than Favors did(I think it was about 850 to 300). Pretty much any team's defense crumbles with Kanter on the floor. Even with OKC Kanter+Ibaka lineups had ~109 Drtg last year. It doesn't matter how good your other big defender is. Kanter just annihilates any semblance of team defense when on the floor.

With that said Gobert is the better defender, no question about it. Favors is a great and versatile defender at the 4 though.

[stitches]

Yeah I think at least 75-80% of Utah's defense is Gobert. If it was just Favors + average center, the defense could fall off a cliff but average PF + Gobert is still a top 5 defense imo

Not exactly true. Post all-star break Jazz defense was about as good without Gobert as it was with him(I actually think it was marginally better without him). The biggest problem for Jazz defense last year(and previous years) was Kanter.

[Winsome Gerbil]

After few games its pretty clear the jazz look like a better team. Hayward is playing great along with gorbert and favours

I am not sure that is the lesson at all. I watch a lot of Kings games, and the Kings look very legit. More legit than I expected. They have looked every bit as talented as the Clippers early in the season, had leads on them both times in the final 6 minutes of each game, and Rondo is looking really good thus far.

Jazz have looked strong too and gotten the defense cranked up early. Its enough that I have begun to take a closer look at the New Orleans situation and when they might get Tyreke back, because I thought he was a big key last year. They better watch out though and not fall too far back early.

[stitches]

After few games its pretty clear the jazz look like a better team. Hayward is playing great along with gorbert and favours

I am not sure that is the lesson at all. I watch a lot of Kings games, and the Kings look very legit. More legit than I expected. They have looked every bit as talented as the Clippers early in the season, had leads on them both times in the final 6 minutes of each game, and Rondo is looking really good thus far.

Jazz have looked strong too and gotten the defense cranked up early. Its enough that I have begun to take a closer look at the New Orleans situation and when they might get Tyreke back, because I thought he was a big key last year. They better watch out though and not fall too far back early.

The Kings have looked surprisingly good and Rondo seems to be clicking and actually giving a ****. Gay and Cousins both look great, too. WIth all that said, the question with the Kings will be how they would handle hardship and adversity and whether they'd crumble after a bad stretch like they did last year. The fact that they actually have legit NBA players on their bench will help them in that regard.

I think there is not an insignificant chance that both teams make the playoffs.

[HeartBreakKid]

Yeah I think at least 75-80% of Utah's defense is Gobert. If it was just Favors + average center, the defense could fall off a cliff but average PF + Gobert is still a top 5 defense imo

This is the craziest thing I've read in this thread. You think Rudy Gobert is that important? Derrick Favors is a big time defender. He gets 1.5 blocks or more as a power forward for 3 straight seasons, before anyone cared about Rudy Gobert. If Favors was not on the Jazz there is no way Utah would have those eye popping rim-protection stats.

[stuporman]

This poll could have been a three way to make it even more interesting.... Jazz-Kings-Wolves.

[CoreConcept]

After few games its pretty clear the jazz look like a better team. Hayward is playing great along with gorbert and favours

Hayward has been pretty bad offensively the first few games. He hasn't looked right since that flagrant 2 McCollum gave him in the end of preseason. It's really promising that the team can still win even with him struggling though. Rodney Hood really stepped up after the first game at Detroit.

[El Turco]

Honestly think the Kings will end up with around 35-40 wins which may be close to the 8th seed.

Jazz are still a year away.

And I posted both these thoughts before the season started.

in what world 35-40 wins close to 8th seed in west?

[lethalizer]

Honestly think the Kings will end up with around 35-40 wins which may be close to the 8th seed.

Jazz are still a year away.

And I posted both these thoughts before the season started.

in what world 35-40 wins close to 8th seed in west?

Well, last season a 45-win team made the playoffs as the 8th seedin the West.

I know it's early, but the bottom of the West getting a bit stronger, I'd say the 8th seed having around 42 wins wouldn't exactly shock me. And 40 wins is close to 42 if I did the math right.

I'm not the OP, mind you, but my 2 cents nonetheless.

[El Turco]

Honestly think the Kings will end up with around 35-40 wins which may be close to the 8th seed.

Jazz are still a year away.

And I posted both these thoughts before the season started.

in what world 35-40 wins close to 8th seed in west?

Well, last season a 45-win team made the playoffs as the 8th seedin the West.

I know it's early, but the bottom of the West getting a bit stronger, I'd say the 8th seed having around 42 wins wouldn't exactly shock me. And 40 wins is close to 42 if I did the math right.

I'm not the OP, mind you, but my 2 cents nonetheless.

42 wins hasnt been enough for the playoffs in the west in almost a decade. since last time, 8th seed won 45, 49, 45, 45(on pace), 46,50, 48, 50. i dont think any of those numbers exactly close to 40, certainly not 35 if i did the math right.

[Deus]

Favors and Gobert actually take pride in their defense. Cousins not so much.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Favors and Gobert actually take pride in their defense. Cousins not so much.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Cousins was one of the strongest defensive centers in the league last year. His defensive impact was enormous. He's probably the best defensive rebounder in the league, he annually leads the league in charges taken, something you never see out of a center, and he's become a credible shotblocker to boot. He was 4th in the entire league in DRPM last year, sandwiched between Tony Allen at #3, and Tim Duncan at #5.

More importantly though, for years now Cousins has basically been the only good defensive player on their entire roster, but with the arrival of Koufos and Cauley-Stein they've suddenly got a very tough defensive frontcourt themselves.

[Litany]

I mean … DeMarcus Cousins might be, like, the fifth-craziest person in the franchise now! Just kidding. He’s no. 2 at the absolute lowest. No superstar has ever approached cranky Boogie levels of not giving a crap. Rudy Gay is isolating on the wing again? I should probably crash the offensive glass, but that takes effort, and, oh, Rudy lost his grip on the ball — let me just see how this plays out.

This crap gets old, and five years in, we’re still waiting for Cousins to go 10 straight games without loafing in transition defense or humiliating a teammate with a tantrum about some alleged mistake. But when Cousins tries, he is a unique force — one of the league’s last true bullies, capable of bum-rushing dudes with Shaq-like post-ups or face-up drives someone his size shouldn’t be able to pull off.

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-annual-nba-league-pass-rankings-part-2-2/