Hey Rogers, Spend Now to Save Later

[Patman]

With the rumour/news that the payroll next year will be $140M, I was disappointed. I will make two caveats before I go on:

1. I get that Rogers is operating a business. But making a profit and trying to win a championship are not mutually exclusive. Far from it. Toronto is not Miami. If you build it, we will come.

2. I WANT responsible spending. I don't want Rogers opening the checkbook so we can sign long-term deals irresponsibly. Which leads me to my main point.

IF we are actually trying to win next year, the payroll will actually make it HARDER to spend responsibly. We will have to offer long-term deals (more guaranteed money) to FA's over shorter deals with higher salary.

IMO the next two years are the time to spend to maximize winning, and still make substantial profit. If we emphasize short-term deals, we give ourselves an out after two years. I prefer (as should Jays management) to have a higher payroll now (~$160M) and then have a blank slate after two years. Rather than $140M this year, and have most of that committed long-term. It will make it harder to rebuild when we're stuck with vets on long-term contracts.

Of course, if management is not trying to add winning pieces, and is content with treading water until the wheels fall off, then all of the above are moot points.

[LLJ]

They are currently spending money on an Ed Rogers statue to put alongside Ted before the price of bronze goes up.

[North_of_Border]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Im sure just like this year the money will be available if the Jays are competitive at a certain point in the season when it matters. If they are a flop, they will just play it out. It would be foolish of Rogers to throw out a crazy budget after 2 months of success. If the Jays do the same performance next season. Rogers makes great money again, then the payroll might go up.

After the 1993 championship the Jays pushed their payroll to the top of the MLB. I remember in the late 90's early 2000's the JAYS were a top 3-5 payroll in the MLB!!!!!! During the Gord Ash days..... and you know what. They were always one of bottom teams as far was money making went. That team sucked every year at the payroll. We are lucky they didnt move out like the Expos.

$140 million is solid for now.

[Parataxis]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Tanking the payroll and refusing to sign top quality starters is a great way to ensure that it doesn't sustain itself. Once you break a trust with a fanbase, it's exceptionally hard to win it back.

[Santoki]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Tanking the payroll and refusing to sign top quality starters is a great way to ensure that it doesn't sustain itself. Once you break a trust with a fanbase, it's exceptionally hard to win it back.

What makes you think they're going to tank the payroll?

[Parataxis]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Tanking the payroll and refusing to sign top quality starters is a great way to ensure that it doesn't sustain itself. Once you break a trust with a fanbase, it's exceptionally hard to win it back.

What makes you think they're going to tank the payroll?

I'm basing that on the rumours that they're planning to limit payroll to $140million. Even without improving our team, that's not enough to keep the team as currently assembled together.

[Santoki]

Tanking the payroll and refusing to sign top quality starters is a great way to ensure that it doesn't sustain itself. Once you break a trust with a fanbase, it's exceptionally hard to win it back.

What makes you think they're going to tank the payroll?

I'm basing that on the rumours that they're planning to limit payroll to $140million. Even without improving our team, that's not enough to keep the team as currently assembled together.

Right, but keeping the payroll the same as the end of this season isn't the same as tanking payroll. And let's at least let the offseason play out a little before we claim that the Jays will refuse to sign top quality starters. I know you probably got your hopes up that we'd re-sign Price, but you should probably come to peace with it not happening. We also don't even know if Price wants to stay with the Jays, but the incoming GM and Shapiro obviously know they need to rebuild the rotation. AA left them quite a bit of work in that regard. Luckily the position player situation that AA left is pretty damn good in the near future.

[Parataxis]

What makes you think they're going to tank the payroll?

I'm basing that on the rumours that they're planning to limit payroll to $140million. Even without improving our team, that's not enough to keep the team as currently assembled together.

Right, but keeping the payroll the same as the end of this season isn't the same as tanking payroll. And let's at least let the offseason play out a little before we claim that the Jays will refuse to sign top quality starters. I know you probably got your hopes up that we'd re-sign Price, but you should probably come to peace with it not happening. We also don't even know if Price wants to stay with the Jays, but the incoming GM and Shapiro obviously know they need to rebuild the rotation. AA left them quite a bit of work in that regard. Luckily the position player situation that AA left is pretty damn good in the near future.

Nope. I was pretty against the trade from the get-go, because I didn't think that we'd resign Price, so you needn't count me amongst the fanboys there, sorry. And absolutely, I'm going to let the off-season play out - that's why I said they were rumours and not facts. But if Rogers thinks that lowering the competitiveness of the team is the way to keep fan interest, I'm afraid their likely badly wrong.

[Skin Blues]

it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market

What are the Raptors playoff TV ratings like?? How does that compare to what the Jays did this year?

After the 1993 championship the Jays pushed their payroll to the top of the MLB.

They had the #1 payroll in the majors multiple times before they ever won a World Series. When we were an annual contender from the late 80s through the mid 90's we were at or near the top in attendance and payroll every year. This is a huge baseball market. Unlike the Leafs, when the Jays stop winning, fans stop showing up. Which is a good thing.

[bananaman]

What are the Raptors playoff TV ratings like?? How does that compare to what the Jays did this year?

Obviously the Jays are FAR more popular than the Raptors. The difference is that MLSE is an ownership group that is happy to spend money when it'll benefit them. Rogers seems to be reluctant to spend the money that's needed to replicate the success we had this season. If MLSE owned the Jays, I'm sure they'd be ready to have a healthy payroll bump after the crazy ratings and merch sales this season produced.

[Patman]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Im sure just like this year the money will be available if the Jays are competitive at a certain point in the season when it matters. If they are a flop, they will just play it out. It would be foolish of Rogers to throw out a crazy budget after 2 months of success. If the Jays do the same performance next season. Rogers makes great money again, then the payroll might go up.

After the 1993 championship the Jays pushed their payroll to the top of the MLB. I remember in the late 90's early 2000's the JAYS were a top 3-5 payroll in the MLB!!!!!! During the Gord Ash days..... and you know what. They were always one of bottom teams as far was money making went. That team sucked every year at the payroll. We are lucky they didnt move out like the Expos.

$140 million is solid for now.

Hyperbole much? I'm not asking for $200M. And I don't want the Jays to not be smart about spending. Read my post again.

We should be a player for ANY top free agent, if they want to come here and the money they want is reasonable. Shapiro should be allowed to go over $140M in free agency if it will improve the team and it will not handcuff us in the future. Shapiro is not stupid. If you give him more money, he will still spend it wisely.

Free agency will be our best avenue to improve the roster. The trade market will not be hot for us, since our farm is lacking right now. The only moves we'd likely be able to do is to trade bats for arms. In FA, we can add arms w/o having to give up anything.

Also, the market for winning baseball is always here in Toronto. This is not a fad. And this is not the same fanbase from our WS teams. It's a new generation of fans. The reason that profits tanked post-93 was that we were unable to put together a winning roster. I'm not a blind AA follower and Shapiro hater. In fact, I think Shapiro can make this team a world champion, if given the resources. But if they're just content to ride this wave, hold onto their money, and put their hands in fans' pockets until they start going away again, that's their prerogative as a business. It's just sad for fans.

Lastly, I think some people have forgotten what division we're in. It's like they forgot about the last two decades after how we overtook the division. The Yanks and BoSox will rise again. That's just the cold truth. This dream of creating a sustainable winner in this division is just that. Our best bet is what AA s us up for, a 2-3 year window to win it all while the big boys retool. The time to strike is now. If we don't take advantage, this window could close until the 2020's.

[Santoki]

I'm basing that on the rumours that they're planning to limit payroll to $140million. Even without improving our team, that's not enough to keep the team as currently assembled together.

Right, but keeping the payroll the same as the end of this season isn't the same as tanking payroll. And let's at least let the offseason play out a little before we claim that the Jays will refuse to sign top quality starters. I know you probably got your hopes up that we'd re-sign Price, but you should probably come to peace with it not happening. We also don't even know if Price wants to stay with the Jays, but the incoming GM and Shapiro obviously know they need to rebuild the rotation. AA left them quite a bit of work in that regard. Luckily the position player situation that AA left is pretty damn good in the near future.

But if Rogers thinks that lowering the competitiveness of the team is the way to keep fan interest, I'm afraid their likely badly wrong.

You say you're going to let the offseason play out and these are all just rumours but you've clearly convinced yourself of a certain conclusion. My advice would be to wait a bit before you make yourself needlessly upset anymore.

[Parataxis]

Right, but keeping the payroll the same as the end of this season isn't the same as tanking payroll. And let's at least let the offseason play out a little before we claim that the Jays will refuse to sign top quality starters. I know you probably got your hopes up that we'd re-sign Price, but you should probably come to peace with it not happening. We also don't even know if Price wants to stay with the Jays, but the incoming GM and Shapiro obviously know they need to rebuild the rotation. AA left them quite a bit of work in that regard. Luckily the position player situation that AA left is pretty damn good in the near future.

But if Rogers thinks that lowering the competitiveness of the team is the way to keep fan interest, I'm afraid their likely badly wrong.

You say you're going to let the offseason play out and these are all just rumours but you've clearly convinced yourself of a certain conclusion. My advice would be to wait a bit before you make yourself needlessly upset anymore.

I think you may have issues with reading comprehension, friend. "If" isn't just a placeholder, it's a sign of a hypothetical.

[kayliecee]

The problem with having non-baseball people as owners is they are just looking at the bottom line. I thought (more hoped) that after all the sellouts, Rogers would think in terms of putting a winner on the field. But I suspect they will use the Leafs model and revert to "what's the least we can spend and still get the fans coming in". AA went on the record and said he wanted to sign Price and Estrada. That would probably call for something in the region of $40+ million just for them. When they told him they wanted him to stay, it's quite possible he mentioned Price and Estrada and asked them about the budget going forward and they pressed their lips together and crossed and recrossed their legs. Maybe his vision was to make the team profitable by making it a perennial winner, which baseball people know takes money, but corporation people hope to do on the cheap just like Rogers does with their website and their customer support people because they think people will still go to them for their services (which they do), and that the same principle applies to baseball. Not all fans are like RealGMers. A lot of casual fans and corporate entities will buy next year's tickets and even season tickets based on the thrill ride of 2015. And the number crunchers at Rogers will love how smart they are.

[Santoki]

But if Rogers thinks that lowering the competitiveness of the team is the way to keep fan interest, I'm afraid their likely badly wrong.

You say you're going to let the offseason play out and these are all just rumours but you've clearly convinced yourself of a certain conclusion. My advice would be to wait a bit before you make yourself needlessly upset anymore.

I think you may have issues with reading comprehension, friend. "If" isn't just a placeholder, it's a sign of a hypothetical.

My comprehension is fine. It's pretty obvious that's how you feel and it's not a hypothetical. You've already said that keeping the payroll the same is essentially tanking payroll or not keeping the team competitive (which is ridiculous in itself) and then you've doubled down on that statement by attributing to Rogers even something they're not dumb enough to miss - lowering competitiveness does not keep fan interest. Well duh, of course.

[UN-Owen]

$140 is got to be top 10 in the MLB. What did you expect, $200 ?

Toronto is a major market, yes. But it is not the same "Baseball Market" as the Leafs are a Hockey Market or Raptors are a Basketball market. The Baseball craze is just being resurrected after decades. Rogers will see if it sustains.

Yeah, I did expect 200 million


It's not just about Toronto being a major market, you have the entire country tuning in when the team does well

[KL78192020]

They should at least sign Price, you can always trade him later for other assets.

[Patman]

You say you're going to let the offseason play out and these are all just rumours but you've clearly convinced yourself of a certain conclusion. My advice would be to wait a bit before you make yourself needlessly upset anymore.

I think you may have issues with reading comprehension, friend. "If" isn't just a placeholder, it's a sign of a hypothetical.

My comprehension is fine. It's pretty obvious that's how you feel and it's not a hypothetical. You've already said that keeping the payroll the same is essentially tanking payroll or not keeping the team competitive (which is ridiculous in itself) and then you've doubled down on that statement by attributing to Rogers even something they're not dumb enough to miss - lowering competitiveness does not keep fan interest. Well duh, of course.

You'd think this was obvious. But there are many teams in sports where they have one good playoff run, jack up ticket prices the following season, but don't do anything to improve the product.

Owners are businessmen. A lot of them have become billionaires by knowing how to make more money w/o actually improving their product or service.

[Mehar]

I posted this another section, but meant to post it here. I was listening to ESPN Radio last night and i hearing them say that Price will leave Toronto to go to a big market club like the Cardinals, Giants and Chicago Cubs. Makes me chuckle, since Toronto has a larger population than all three of these cities. It is the 3rd Largest MLB City behind only New York and LA. It has an entire nation backing them. Such a shame that it cannot act like a true big market club with a Top 5 Payroll in the 160-65 M range. No reason why they cannot offer Price a very good offer. Now i hear the talk of people wanting to trade either Tulo, EE or Joey Bats to acquire a starter, because of the need to be flexible with the "Rogers Budget".

Makes me sick to my stomach since a better idea would be to keep all these guys and just open the Cheque Book and improve by free agency. So frustrating to hear how St. Louis, San Francisco and Chicago are bigger markets than Toronto, when Toronto is actually the bigger market, but ownership cannot go that extra step for once to keep all of this team together for 2016.

[Who Zaun First]

Right, but keeping the payroll the same as the end of this season isn't the same as tanking payroll. And let's at least let the offseason play out a little before we claim that the Jays will refuse to sign top quality starters. I know you probably got your hopes up that we'd re-sign Price, but you should probably come to peace with it not happening. We also don't even know if Price wants to stay with the Jays, but the incoming GM and Shapiro obviously know they need to rebuild the rotation. AA left them quite a bit of work in that regard. Luckily the position player situation that AA left is pretty damn good in the near future.

But if Rogers thinks that lowering the competitiveness of the team is the way to keep fan interest, I'm afraid their likely badly wrong.

You say you're going to let the offseason play out and these are all just rumours but you've clearly convinced yourself of a certain conclusion. My advice would be to wait a bit before you make yourself needlessly upset anymore.

So do you think the way to increase the fan base is by lowering the team's competitiveness?