Political Roundtable - Part VII

[nate33]

It's going to be interesting to see how congress handles the imminent insolvency of Puerto Rico. The President proposes that they be allowed to declare bankruptcy thus shafting bondholders and transferring risks and costs from irresponsibly run U.S. territories to taxpayers throughout the country. States like IL, NJ, and most D's support the proposal knowing that once a precedent is set for territories then it will be much easier to extend bankruptcy protection to irresponsibly run states as well. In other words, someone's got to pay for the profligacy and there is a major push underway by D's to ensure it is not those that caused it. Should be an entertaining fight.

http://thehill.com/opinion/judd-gregg/258778-judd-gregg-the-pitfalls-of-a-puerto-rico-bankruptcy

I guarantee the Republicans will capitulate and the American taxpayer will ultimately foot the bill. It's what always happens. Financial responsibility is racist.

It will continue to happen until the dollar implodes. Nobody will pay any attention to the consequences of their decisions until those consequences are actually felt rather than being postponed into the future.

[Zonkerbl]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/02/concealed-gun-owner-fatally-shoots-suspected-robber-during-chicago-stick-up/

You know, I would like to come in here and bash this concealed carry thing with my knee jerk anti-gun views. And yet this whole thing is so... weird. WTF America? Why does everything happening now have to be some sort of bizaare statistical outlier that you can't apply bland generalities to?

[Zonkerbl]

It's going to be interesting to see how congress handles the imminent insolvency of Puerto Rico. The President proposes that they be allowed to declare bankruptcy thus shafting bondholders and transferring risks and costs from irresponsibly run U.S. territories to taxpayers throughout the country. States like IL, NJ, and most D's support the proposal knowing that once a precedent is set for territories then it will be much easier to extend bankruptcy protection to irresponsibly run states as well. In other words, someone's got to pay for the profligacy and there is a major push underway by D's to ensure it is not those that caused it. Should be an entertaining fight.

http://thehill.com/opinion/judd-gregg/258778-judd-gregg-the-pitfalls-of-a-puerto-rico-bankruptcy

I guarantee the Republicans will capitulate and the American taxpayer will ultimately foot the bill. It's what always happens. Financial responsibility is racist.

It will continue to happen until the dollar implodes. Nobody will pay any attention to the consequences of their decisions until those consequences are actually felt rather than being postponed into the future.

What's with the persecution complex Nate? Who said financial responsibility is racist?

Politics always trumps economics, welcome to my world.

[nate33]

What's with the persecution complex Nate? Who said financial responsibility is racist?

Politics always trumps economics, welcome to my world.

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

[Zonkerbl]

What's with the persecution complex Nate? Who said financial responsibility is racist?

Politics always trumps economics, welcome to my world.

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

That's ridiculous. All the Democrats have to do is say "look at all these poor people in this forgotten backwater that we treat like dirt all the time! Can we do right by them JUST THIS ONCE?!?!?!"

And Republicans will show compassion and work out a compromise.

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THINGS WORK IN THE REAL WORLD.

[nate33]

How do we "treat them like dirt"? Why is it the U.S. taxpayer's responsibility to bail them out of their financial irresponsibility? I'd say the same thing about California or Detroit too. When incompetent people get in charge of the government apparatus and spend themselves into oblivion in order to buy votes, it's not my responsibility to bail them out.

[dckingsfan]

I also find it interesting that so much of the electorate is fiscally illiterate. I find it also interesting that the "fiscal hawks" are so vilified. An interesting note in today's Wall Street Journal about how the budget squeeze from entitlements + defense spending + debt payments is affecting our ability to deal with nuclear waste.

It is just one small part of how the real world works. When both sides see their side as right and can't recognize the corruption in their own party.

[TheSecretWeapon]

What's with the persecution complex Nate? Who said financial responsibility is racist?

Politics always trumps economics, welcome to my world.

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

And in a couple days there'll be some other issue to arise in which Republicans will insinuate that conservatives or Christians or some other segment of their base are being persecuted. It's a tiresome game both sides play.

[Zonkerbl]

How do we "treat them like dirt"? Why is it the U.S. taxpayer's responsibility to bail them out of their financial irresponsibility? I'd say the same thing about California or Detroit too. When incompetent people get in charge of the government apparatus and spend themselves into oblivion in order to buy votes, it's not my responsibility to bail them out.

My point being you don't have to appeal to racism. I'm sure any of the well paid lawyers working for the Dems could come up with some sort of sad story about how we are treating Puerto Ricans like dirt. I don't know, maybe stringing them along without states rights for decades? Something like that.

edit: like you can start here for example:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/10/opinion/fortuno-gop-cuts-puerto-rico/

[nate33]

What's with the persecution complex Nate? Who said financial responsibility is racist?

Politics always trumps economics, welcome to my world.

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

And in a couple days there'll be some other issue to arise in which Republicans will insinuate that conservatives or Christians or some other segment of their base are being persecuted. It's a tiresome game both sides play.

I find myself torn on this issue. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch socialists mismanage their economy and then demand bailouts, in effect, forcing pensioners to pay the bill. On the other hand, the only reason the banks bought those Puerto Rico junk bonds in the first place was because they knew they had Congress in their back pocket and could ultimately expect a bailout if the spit hit the fan.

A couple of healthy defaults would result in rising interest rates on all municipal bonds, which is exactly what needs to happen to instill some discipline among governments.

[dckingsfan]

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

And in a couple days there'll be some other issue to arise in which Republicans will insinuate that conservatives or Christians or some other segment of their base are being persecuted. It's a tiresome game both sides play.

I find myself torn on this issue. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch socialists mismanage their economy and then demand bailouts, in effect, forcing pensioners to pay the bill. On the other hand, the only reason the banks bought those Puerto Rico junk bonds in the first place was because they knew they had Congress in their back pocket and could ultimately expect a bailout if the spit hit the fan.

A couple of healthy defaults would result in rising interest rates on all municipal bonds, which is exactly what needs to happen to instill some discipline among governments.

I sooooo agree with this! All issuing of municipal bonds should require an audit of the municipality on ALL outstanding liabilities. Municipalities should not be allowed to pay obligations after the fact (pensions). This is why all pensions should be 401K like.

[TheSecretWeapon]

If the Republicans stand in the way of bailing out Puerto Rico, I guarantee Democrats will insinuate that racism is the reason. And then Republicans will get squeamish and capitulate.

And in a couple days there'll be some other issue to arise in which Republicans will insinuate that conservatives or Christians or some other segment of their base are being persecuted. It's a tiresome game both sides play.

I find myself torn on this issue. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch socialists mismanage their economy and then demand bailouts, in effect, forcing pensioners to pay the bill. On the other hand, the only reason the banks bought those Puerto Rico junk bonds in the first place was because they knew they had Congress in their back pocket and could ultimately expect a bailout if the spit hit the fan.

A couple of healthy defaults would result in rising interest rates on all municipal bonds, which is exactly what needs to happen to instill some discipline among governments.

The default that REALLY needed to happen was back in 2008, I think. If I recollect correctly, you were in favor of letting financial institutions fail if they'd mismanaged risk so badly. This is well outside my area of expertise, though.

[dckingsfan]

I will pick one part of 2008 that still bugs me a bit - we should have let the auto industry go through regular reorganization rather than have the government intervene.

And the stimulus was really ineffective.

The banks were trickier - and those involved stay with their mantra of "it would have been a lot worse".

[pineappleheadindc]

It's going to be interesting to see how congress handles the imminent insolvency of Puerto Rico. The President proposes that they be allowed to declare bankruptcy thus shafting bondholders and transferring risks and costs from irresponsibly run U.S. territories to taxpayers throughout the country. States like IL, NJ, and most D's support the proposal knowing that once a precedent is set for territories then it will be much easier to extend bankruptcy protection to irresponsibly run states as well. In other words, someone's got to pay for the profligacy and there is a major push underway by D's to ensure it is not those that caused it. Should be an entertaining fight.

http://thehill.com/opinion/judd-gregg/258778-judd-gregg-the-pitfalls-of-a-puerto-rico-bankruptcy

I guarantee the Republicans will capitulate and the American taxpayer will ultimately foot the bill. It's what always happens. Financial responsibility is racist.

It will continue to happen until the dollar implodes. Nobody will pay any attention to the consequences of their decisions until those consequences are actually felt rather than being postponed into the future.

I know that convo on Nate's post, above, has gone on. But I want to just note that I get where Nate is coming from a bit (or I don't, and Nate/Popper can publicly correct me).

As you'all know, I'm a liberal -- not a squishy "progressive". Liberal.

But I have lotsa conservative friends. So I was chatting over coffee over the weekend and a good friend of mine is just livid at what he perceives to be a betrayal of conservative principles by Washington Republicans. To wit:

-- Republicans hold the Constitutional power of the purse, BOTH houses of Congress. As well as a majority of state/local offices.
-- He feels like the grassroots, led in recent years by Tea Party-affiliated voters, have given elected Republicans their seats.
-- And what do they get for their time and hard-earned money? A new Washington budget that INCREASES spending and pushes debt ceiling debate until 2017. A new Speaker that he deems (not sure this is true) "supports amnesty". No bill from Congress to the President's desk that defunds Planned Parenthood.

Now look, I'm personally not aligned with most (any) of those public policy positions. But I also get the anger. Grassroots Republicans have delivered the votes. And I understand the Senate filibuster and a veto-proof margin, but I also understand the frustration about doing the hard work to control Congress and getting nothing in your wheelhouse from it (from the perspective of conservatives).

Illustration, perhaps, that our government isn't designed to move quickly in one direction or another. But that structure and rules exist to make changes from the status quo difficult.

My dos centavos.

[nate33]

And in a couple days there'll be some other issue to arise in which Republicans will insinuate that conservatives or Christians or some other segment of their base are being persecuted. It's a tiresome game both sides play.

I find myself torn on this issue. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch socialists mismanage their economy and then demand bailouts, in effect, forcing pensioners to pay the bill. On the other hand, the only reason the banks bought those Puerto Rico junk bonds in the first place was because they knew they had Congress in their back pocket and could ultimately expect a bailout if the spit hit the fan.

A couple of healthy defaults would result in rising interest rates on all municipal bonds, which is exactly what needs to happen to instill some discipline among governments.

The default that REALLY needed to happen was back in 2008, I think. If I recollect correctly, you were in favor of letting financial institutions fail if they'd mismanaged risk so badly. This is well outside my area of expertise, though.

Yes. Indeed I was. My thinking was that a default at that time would be borne disproportionately by the banks and the wealthy. By bailing them out, the pain was transferred to the taxpayer - the middle class.

[dckingsfan]

I find myself torn on this issue. On one hand, it's frustrating to watch socialists mismanage their economy and then demand bailouts, in effect, forcing pensioners to pay the bill. On the other hand, the only reason the banks bought those Puerto Rico junk bonds in the first place was because they knew they had Congress in their back pocket and could ultimately expect a bailout if the spit hit the fan.

A couple of healthy defaults would result in rising interest rates on all municipal bonds, which is exactly what needs to happen to instill some discipline among governments.

The default that REALLY needed to happen was back in 2008, I think. If I recollect correctly, you were in favor of letting financial institutions fail if they'd mismanaged risk so badly. This is well outside my area of expertise, though.

Yes. Indeed I was. My thinking was that a default at that time would be borne disproportionately by the banks and the wealthy. By bailing them out, the pain was transferred to the taxpayer - the middle class.

It was also the Fed that transferred the pain to the middle class with QE (actually more than anything).

[nate33]

The default that REALLY needed to happen was back in 2008, I think. If I recollect correctly, you were in favor of letting financial institutions fail if they'd mismanaged risk so badly. This is well outside my area of expertise, though.

Yes. Indeed I was. My thinking was that a default at that time would be borne disproportionately by the banks and the wealthy. By bailing them out, the pain was transferred to the taxpayer - the middle class.

It was also the Fed that transferred the pain to the middle class with QE (actually more than anything).

Well, yes. The Fed prevents benign disinflation by continuing to print money and give it to the banks to buy up the stock market. And the government used taxpayer dollars to bail out Fannie Mae and initiation various screwball demand side programs like Cash for Clunkers.

[AFM]

The whole QE thing is really easy to get around though. I've been paying for everything in gold bullion and sexual favors for a couple years now.

[AFM]

And I'm all outta gold.

[stevemcqueen1]

But I have lotsa conservative friends. So I was chatting over coffee over the weekend and a good friend of mine is just livid at what he perceives to be a betrayal of conservative principles by Washington Republicans. To wit:

-- Republicans hold the Constitutional power of the purse, BOTH houses of Congress. As well as a majority of state/local offices.
-- He feels like the grassroots, led in recent years by Tea Party-affiliated voters, have given elected Republicans their seats.
-- And what do they get for their time and hard-earned money? A new Washington budget that INCREASES spending and pushes debt ceiling debate until 2017. A new Speaker that he deems (not sure this is true) "supports amnesty". No bill from Congress to the President's desk that defunds Planned Parenthood.

Now look, I'm personally not aligned with most (any) of those public policy positions. But I also get the anger. Grassroots Republicans have delivered the votes. And I understand the Senate filibuster and a veto-proof margin, but I also understand the frustration about doing the hard work to control Congress and getting nothing in your wheelhouse from it (from the perspective of conservatives).

That's the kind of echo-chamber nonsense that dominates GoP discourse today. Sending a caucus of arch conservative idealogues from the most heavily gerry-mandered districts in the country with a mandate not to compromise is not delivering the votes to get what they want. They don't have the votes OR the popular support to rubber stamp a far right wing legislative agenda. If they wanted to get any part of their agenda accomplished, then nutting party leadership by stripping of them of their authority to negotiate was the absolute worst way to try and get it done.

The Tea Party was an authentic grass roots movement for all of a year or two before it was coopted by the Kochs and Limbaughs of the party. It does not and never has had broad appeal and coalition building power necessary to become a true reform wave with legislative force.