Who has the best overall system?

[CB4_Toronto_Raptors]

Toronto...


...Oh you said best

[Chach]

Toronto's system is considerably better if they sign all their draft picks. Not best but it's improved.

Also, I re-read that article and I am thinking it's junk.

The Red Sox not only want to keep Buehrle away from the New York Yankees...

The Sox have a 10 game lead and the Yankees' tough schedule comes up in August while we are going through a small part of our now with two back to back West Coast road trips. If are are going to trade for Buehrle, it's because we are afraid that Schilling's shoulder is worst than initially expected. We don't do this 'keeping guys away from the Yankees' BS anymore just like the Yanks don't do stuff to keep guys away from the Sox. If that's an added bonus, cool. But it's not the main motivation.

Plus the article says the Sox are interested in Buehrle and that the Sox like them because of the loaded farm system, not because we are willing to part with it. mahalo
~Chach~

[GYBE]

Sorry GYBE, I can't see you guys getting either of them.

Ouch. For public record, and because I'm deeply offended at the notion, I am a Cubs fan. I couldn't care less what the Sox do, just thought the article was timely to the discussion. I think if Williams can get either Bowden or Buchholz he'd pull the trigger immediately. But it wouldn't be a rental, surely they'd have some sort of extension in principle before the deal.

[cmaff051]

Sorry GYBE, I can't see you guys getting either of them. I saw that article and no one listed will be enticed. If Coco Crisp continues to have a resurgence then MAYBE Ellsbury becomes a bit expendable (I still love the kid but I am starting to worry about his AAA numbers) but none of the big guys are going anywhere.

I disagree that Bowden is like Clippard. I agree that they share similar attributes such as solid command and a wide array of pitches but Bowden is bigger (and there is no way Clippard is 200 pounds) and has a better fastball and curve (Clippard has a CONSIDERABLY better change, that is Bowden major failing right now). Since he was drafted, Bowden has been considered a 2-3 starter while scout struggled to believe Clippard would even make it to the bigs. Not saying Clippard can't pull it off but Bowden's got better stuff and better scouting history and he completely bitch slapped the Cal League. I'm talking Cy Young numbers in the best hitting ballpark in the best hitting league. If you see a football score, $50 says it was in Lancaster. I can't see the Sox giving him up for a Buehrle rental. mahalo
~Chach~

2-3 starter my ass. He's never been billed as that, SOSH and soxprospects exagerrate what he is beyound belief just how NYYFans used to exagerrated Clippard's ceiling.

[Chach]

"Boston has handled Bowden carefully because of his youth but envisions him as a workhouse No. 2 or No. 3 starter in time."
-Baseball America

And this was before he destoyed the Cal League and is now holding his own against the Eastern League. If you take out that game where he got his ass nailed to the wall (3 innings, 8 runs), he's got a 2.25 ERA at AA with a decent K/9 for a 20 year old with no change-up. If he develops that change-up, there is no way he stays healthy and doesn't become a #2-3 workhorse. mahalo
~Chach~

[cmaff051]

Not suprisingly coming for Jim Callis, the biggest Sox homer alive. There is no way Bowden is a #2 or #3 starter until he develops a good changeup. And for the last time, he doesn't sit in the low 90s, he's an 88-92 guy.

I heard a very good comparision to Bowden on Soxprospects.com last night... MIKE MUSSINA. That site is a joke, how can you take anybody seriously who cares Bowden to Mussina.

[The Rondo Show]

I think comparing Bowden and Clippard's upside is selling Bowden short. The Red Sox obviously thought highly enough of his to take him in the (supplemental) 1st round, Sickels had him ranked the same grade as Buchholz going into the year (which while clearly wrong now, shows he obviously thinks the guy has more upside than you),Callis considers him to have 2-3 starter potential and Kevin Goldstein said he'd take Bowden over Ian Kennedy in his BP chat yesterday:

http://baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=320

"Kanstey (Boston, MA): Bucholz or Joba? Bowden or Kennedy? Bard or Betances?

Kevin Goldstein: Bucholz, Bowden, Betances"

Clippard was a guy who has been seen as an AAAAer to long reliever to very back end of the rotation by almost all scouts. He has never been viewed as legit of a prospect as Bowden currently is. Bowden also throws a few MPH harder than Clippard who had a tough time reaching 90 MPH on the rigged ESPN guns that have had Daisuke and Andrew Miller hitting 97 when neither have topped 94-95 on the games I've seen (and I've seen all of Dice-K's, only missed one of Miller's).

I see no reason why Bowden couldn't become a #3 starter in the future. What have you seen to suggest he can't be, cmaff?

[cmaff051]

No good third pitch.

The reason why people take Bowden over Kennedy/Clippard is because Bowden still has some projection in him. Many of these guys are a big fan of projection.

Clippard sits at 88-91 will Bowden sits at 88-92 and can get it up to 94 on a very very very rare occasion

[nykgeneralmanager]

I could see Bowden over Kennedy, and Betances over Bard is a no brainer simply because how awful Bard has been...but I think the most intriguing one is Chamberlain and Buchholz. They're going to be battling for higher spots on prospect lists for the next year or so, and you can make great arguments for either.

[Chach]

I think Buchholz is clearly ahead of Joba but the gap is closing until Clay get bumped to AAA. Buchholz is a year older but had dominated AA all year where as Joba, due to injuries and starting at A ball, has only done it for a brief period. Buchholz should get promoted to AAA within the week (probably won't but should) whereas I think Joba should spend all year at AA to see if he truly is dominating or just taking advantage of the new league (I think its the former but I'd like to rule SSS out). Buchholz should break camp with the big league club while Joba should start at AAA and make the Yanks rotation at some point next year. Both are fine prospects with tons of ceiling and as a Red Sox fan, I'm obviously going to take Clayboy but Joba is up there. I'd rank Clay in the top 10 and Joba between 20-30 because of the injury issue. If he makes it through next season with no injuries, as much as it pains me to say it, he's got a good chance of ending up between the 5-10 range if he retains his prospect status (which he may not if he gets called up early enough). mahalo
~Chach~

[nykgeneralmanager]

I think Buchholz is clearly ahead of Joba but the gap is closing until Clay get bumped to AAA. Buchholz is a year older but had dominated AA all year where as Joba, due to injuries and starting at A ball, has only done it for a brief period. Buchholz should get promoted to AAA within the week (probably won't but should) whereas I think Joba should spend all year at AA to see if he truly is dominating or just taking advantage of the new league (I think its the former but I'd like to rule SSS out). Buchholz should break camp with the big league club while Joba should start at AAA and make the Yanks rotation at some point next year. Both are fine prospects with tons of ceiling and as a Red Sox fan, I'm obviously going to take Clayboy but Joba is up there. I'd rank Clay in the top 10 and Joba between 20-30 because of the injury issue. If he makes it through next season with no injuries, as much as it pains me to say it, he's got a good chance of ending up between the 5-10 range if he retains his prospect status (which he may not if he gets called up early enough). mahalo
~Chach~

I think I would agree that Buchholz is ahead of Joba right now. But with a full healthy and dominating season at AA, Joba will be a top 10 prospect at season's end. I would not be surprised if he is even higher than Buchholz on some lists. Also, I would not be too surprised if Joba did in fact break camp next season. It will take domination of AA for another month and a half, then either a September call up or finishing the year in AAA and pitching well there. Clemens won't be back, and Pettitte may not either (but I think he will). The Yanks have just about given up on Pavano, and there is no longterm guarantee of Igawa. There are only 3 guaranteed spots for next season as of now, and those belong to Wang, Hughes, and Mussina. Even with Pettitte coming back, there is still room for a 5th starter. Joba's the best choice.

[nykgeneralmanager]

Joba turns in a 6 inning, 4 hit, 0 R, 12 K performance. His K/9 rate in AA is closing in on 18.

[cmaff051]

Tabata with a .775 OPS as a 18 year old in High A. He sucks.

[SARGO127]

Joba turns in a 6 inning, 4 hit, 0 R, 12 K performance. His K/9 rate in AA is closing in on 18.

[NH_soxfan14]

Looks to me like the Red Sox have the best overall system. Clay Buchholz no-hitter, Jacoby Ellsbury blazing speed, and Brandon Moss overall beast of a right fielder.

[bigboy1234]

Looks to me like the Red Sox have the best overall system. Clay Buchholz no-hitter, Jacoby Ellsbury blazing speed, and Brandon Moss overall beast of a right fielder.

LOL. Evan Longoria, David Price, Jacob McGee, Reid Brignac, and Wade Davis say hi. By the way those are just the Devil Rays top 25 overall prospects, there depth is also very nice while also getting to add one of Alvarez/Smoak/Matusz in the next draft.

But yeah the Red Sox system is good, but not Devil Ray good, they also have Lowrie, Lars, Masterson, and Bowden who are all top 100 prospects.

[cmaff051]

Masterson and Bowden are top 100 prospects? Doubt it.

[Chach]

Bowden seems to be on the same time frame at Hughes was (20 year old in AA) and pitched lights OUT in Lancaster, absolutely dominant in the most hitter friendly ballpark in the most hitters friendly league and has held his own in AA with some up and down games. Definately top 100 worthy.

Masterson made a case for himself his last month in Lancaster and his first month in Portland. He's come back down to earth so his overall numbers at both starts are down so I am not sure if he's going to break the top 100 but he very well could.

The Sox farm system was on display last night. Buchholz with the no-no, Pedroia leading the offensive attack AND making a fine defensive play to save the no hitter, Youk at first, Moss and Ellsbury both in the OF at the end of the game, and Papelbon and Delcarmen were waiting in the pen if Buchholz needed help. I've been following the system for several years now and it just feels so satisfying to see the front office produce so many home grown players that I've followed since A-Ball. mahalo
~Chach~

[bigboy1234]

Masterson and Bowden are top 100 prospects? Doubt it.

Definitely at the lower end, but yeah I think they are. Masterson gets underrated because he is a groundball pitcher and Bowden is one of the younger prospects in AA.

[NH_soxfan14]

-= original quote snipped =-


Definitely at the lower end, but yeah I think they are. Masterson gets underrated because he is a groundball pitcher and Bowden is one of the younger prospects in AA.

I saw Bowden and Masterson pitch in person and believe me they are top 100 prospects.