Tim Hardaway Jr.

[jayu70]

This does seem to reinforce the idea that we overpaid for THJ.

Last year we gave up the 2015 Sixth Man of the Year (and the 2014 DPOY for the Spanish League) and got back little to no value as well. It's been a running theme for a few summers now from our Front Office.

Again a vacuum, what was the premise behind trading Lou (and we are 2 years removed from the trade) to free up capspace to make a run at free agents, right. If you don't have capspace you can't be in the game. I would say signing Thabo and Baze in lieu of Lou and Bebe was a win. You make make trades to improve your team not to win the trade in the media.
That's like saying SAS got nothing for Splitter but wait, they got capspace to sign LMA.

[Jamaaliver]

Last year we gave up the 2015 Sixth Man of the Year (and the 2014 DPOY for the Spanish League) and got back little to no value as well. It's been a running theme for a few summers now from our Front Office.

Again a vacuum, what was the premise behind trading Lou (and we are 2 years removed from the trade) to free up capspace to make a run at free agents, right. If you don't have capspace you can't be in the game. I would say signing Thabo and Baze in lieu of Lou and Bebe was a win. You make make trades to improve your team not to win the trade in the media.
That's like saying SAS got nothing for Splitter but wait, they got capspace to sign LMA.

Ummm.....

Lots here I disagree with.

1. That trade occurred in summer 2014. Just before last season. It is now Fall 2015. Absolutely NOT two years ago.

2. We traded Lou and Bebe for a shot at Luol Deng, Pau Gasol and other stars.

3. Last season was great, but let's not pretend Kent Bazemore was our primary objective last offseason...he was Ferry's backup plan and could have been signed without trading Lou.

But I digress. I simply wish Wes had gotten more for #15. Phil gifted JR, Shump, Tyson & , Amare...but somehow managed to scam us for THJ.

We'll see moving forward if ths is a sign of things to come.

[MaceCase]

Not understanding still crying over the Louis & Bebe trade. Louis went on to win the 6th man of the year award after the trade....and the Raptors let him go for nothing in favor of stealing a defensive stalwart from the Hawks....sound like a reoccurring theme with Louis? Being let go for "nothing" in favor of pursuing better defenders? It's only occurred 3 straight times now so perhaps the idea of his "value" doesn't extend beyond his ability to make himself look good rather than his team. Then I don't think Bebe has logged a single minute even in preseason. Of course there's no reason to rehash what the Hawks did in the meantime as they only went on to their most successful season...ever.

Jayu is correct, the NBA is not about collecting "value" unless you are the 76ers. Most teams look for ways to improve themselves rather than maintaining their rep amongst the media. There's zero point in selecting a player you don't want over one that you believe can actually help you simply because there's a consensus that the former has more "value". The Hawks likely had a singular target or group of targets or never wanted the 15th pick to begin with given that it was part of a package which Boston was offering up to Charlotte. Were the Hornets fools to turn down such a ransom of 6 picks for their 1? No, it made little sense to them to give up a chance at a player they believed could help them for "value" much the same as the Hawks weren't going to give up on a player they wanted in favor of getting "value".

[jayu70]

Again a vacuum, what was the premise behind trading Lou (and we are 2 years removed from the trade) to free up capspace to make a run at free agents, right. If you don't have capspace you can't be in the game. I would say signing Thabo and Baze in lieu of Lou and Bebe was a win. You make make trades to improve your team not to win the trade in the media.
That's like saying SAS got nothing for Splitter but wait, they got capspace to sign LMA.

Ummm.....

Lots here I disagree with.

1. That trade occurred in summer 2014. Just before last season. It is now Fall 2015. Absolutely NOT two years ago.

2. We traded Lou and Bebe for a shot at Luol Deng, Pau Gasol and other STARS.

3. Last season was great, but let's not pretend Kent Bazemore was our primary objective last offseason...he was Ferry's backup plan and could have been signed without trading Lou.

But I digress. I simply wish Wes had gotten more for #15. Phil gifted JR, Shump, Tyson & , Amare...but somehow managed to scam us for THJ.

We'll see moving forward if ths is a sign of things to come.

1. You are correct, Lou and Bebe haven't been with the Hawks for 1 season. Toronto let the same 6th man walk for nothing. Bebe is so far removed from the Spanish League 2014 DPOY.

2. and 3. You are correct again - we traded Lou and Bebe for a shot at BETTER players - namely Pau, Deng etc. The Hawks problem the previous season was size and defense particularly at the wings. If we don't free of the Capspace we have no shot to even have a conversation with Pau or Deng which as you state was plan A - to try and get a talent upgrade from Lou Williams and Bebe. You always have to have a plan B - which was signing BOTH Bazemore ($2mil) AND Thabo ($4mi) - we can't get both by keeping Lou who couldn't run the PG position and was too small to play defense as the SG. What did getting Baze and Thabo do - fix the Hawks deficiency of size, athleticism and defense on the wing (there was nobody behind DMC) - what was the result - 60 wins and ECF. The inherent value of a trade is determined by what happens on the court, not winning the media perception war.

Aaahh - the Knicks - they 'gifted' those players to do what - FREE UP CAPSPACE to chase their plan A of top level Free Agents - what happened, they struck out and moved on to plan B.

On one hand you are saying we'll see what happens with THJr but you are also saying definitively we got scammed and you agreed with the Knicks fan that we overpaid - the actual value of the trade has yet to be determined.

[FreeSpiritNY]

This does seem to reinforce the idea that we overpaid for THJ.

You're taking the commentary of a Knick Fan? so that reinforces the idea that we overpaid when THJr has not played 1 second of regular season bball? OOOkay. Let's discuss mid-season at least he would have some meaningful games played by then. It's just too soon to tell.

As for his non-existant defense, must have been a NY thing because so far in pre-season per the article the Hawks defense hasn't suffered when he's been on the floor.

1. I was being polite to a guest on our board.

2. I'm reserving judgment on THJ's abilities and fit until after the season. It's more about the value of that trade. The #15 pick we had last spring was simply worth more than THJ and a couple of future 2nd rounders. (In my humble opinion.)

If NY was interested in obtaining Grant or any other young prospect available at 19, we simply should have negotiated for more value in return. There's a reason most every analyst and pundit considered it a massive win for the Knicks. It's because the value we gave was much greater than what we received. Simple Market value.

Last year we gave up the 2015 Sixth Man of the Year (and the 2014 DPOY for the Spanish League) and got back little to no value as well. It's been a running theme for a few summers now from our Front Office.

I mean hey I can't hide the fact that yea New York totally sucked last year and has sucked for a long time but thjr defense really is horrible. So yes the Hawks did give up to much value for him. He had a bad year and could have been had for less.

He does thrive in open floor situations though so if you guys can figure something out for him you'll have a good bench player.

He will can be used better in your situation than ours last year. Last year he was a started after the trade it showed he is not starter material yet.

But I wish you guys the best I never disliked your team and always seem to do everything right l. I really enjoyed how your team actually worked as a team.

[Jamaaliver]

I mean hey I can't hide the fact that yea New York totally sucked last year and has sucked for a long time but thjr defense really is horrible. So yes the Hawks did give up to much value for him. He had a bad year and could have been had for less.

He does thrive in open floor situations though so if you guys can figure something out for him you'll have a good bench player.

He will can be used better in your situation than ours last year. Last year he was a started after the trade it showed he is not starter material yet.

But I wish you guys the best I never disliked your team and always seem to do everything right l. I really enjoyed how your team actually worked as a team.

Your kind words are much appreciated.

Hopefully both our teams make a deep run into the playoffs this season.

[Jamaaliver]

My point is the value of the trade cannot yet be determined...Trying to determine perceived value without games played or see a return on the investment that's looking at it in a vacuum.

On one hand you are saying we'll see what happens with THJr but you are also saying definitively we got scammed and you agreed with the Knicks fan that we overpaid - the actual value of the trade has yet to be determined.

Everything you've said above is correct. The total value of the trade can more accurately be ascertained years after the fact.

But there be other theories in determining market value.

A number of these are above my paygrade, but I'll explain it simply this way.

I believe a negotiated transaction can be evaluated immediately based on the current market value. I think we could have gotten THJ for less. This sentiment is echoed by opposing GMs (off the record), analysts, pundits, Knicks fans, etc.

If we pay a first rounder straight up for an underwhelming SG, and every other potential buyer scoffs at the amount paid....that's the market indicating you paid too much.

You are correct when you mention that the media doesn't decide who wins a trade. No doubt. But what we've seen from a number of beat writers and insiders is them echoing what consensus there is among GMs and other Front Office persons.

Joey, our visitor from the Knicks board, sums it up concisely:

So yes the Hawks did give up to much value for him. He had a bad year and could have been had for less.

If THJ goes on to have a long and prosperous Hawks career...GREAT. We'll have done well in the trade. (Particularly if no one drafted at 19 or later turns into a NBA caliber player.

But none of that changes the fact that AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION we paid more than anything NYK could have possibly hoped to get elsewhere.


We had numerous options at #15 in the draft.

Wilcox said the Hawks had eight or nine offers for the 15th pick. Once the Thunder selected Murray State point guard Cameron Payne at No. 14, the Hawks decided to move back and then eventually acquire Hardaway.

We had numerous options at #19 in the draft.

Budenholzer said the Hawks were never close to moving up in the draft but got several offers once they traded down to the 19th pick.

HERE

I'm not sure a more experienced GM couldn't have gotten more by playing multiple teams against each other, having so many options on the table.

[FreeSpiritNY]

I mean hey I can't hide the fact that yea New York totally sucked last year and has sucked for a long time but thjr defense really is horrible. So yes the Hawks did give up to much value for him. He had a bad year and could have been had for less.

He does thrive in open floor situations though so if you guys can figure something out for him you'll have a good bench player.

He will can be used better in your situation than ours last year. Last year he was a started after the trade it showed he is not starter material yet.

But I wish you guys the best I never disliked your team and always seem to do everything right l. I really enjoyed how your team actually worked as a team.

Your kind words are much appreciated.

Hopefully both our teams make a deep run into the playoffs this season.

Let's be honest your team Has a lot better chance to make a deep run then we do lol, I will say though I love the way my team is being assembled now. We finally have a team not just knuckle heads

[frothbrain]

Not sure why Hawk fans are in dismay over losing the 19th pick?
Your GM did not want/need Grant. you have a great pg rotation already.
Did you guys want bobby portis? no other rookie around there has made any noise in preseason.

[nybluemeadow]

JR, Shump, and Hardaway. Hardaway was the best of the three. Teague, Millsap, Demarre, Kover, Bazemore, Thabo, and Schroder all really struggle their first year with Budenholzer and his system. i predict that Hardaway will also struggle but will probably start to feel more comfortable in the last two months of the season.

[moocow007]

JR, Shump, and Hardaway. Hardaway was the best of the three. Teague, Millsap, Demarre, Kover, Bazemore, Thabo, and Schroder all really struggle their first year with Budenholzer and his system. i predict that Hardaway will also struggle but will probably start to feel more comfortable in the last two months of the season.

Have to disagree.

Defensively both Shumpert and Smith were better than Hardaway...not hard since Hardaway was a sieve on defense most nights seemingly showing no interest in defense (probably why Bud flagged Hardaway for last nights game as "not ready"). Offensively Smith (who had the most disjointed offensive season of his career) was still better.

Doesn't mean that Hardaway doesn't have any advantages over Smith and Shumpert. He did and does. The 2 main things that Hardaway was better at than Shumpert and Smith were:

a. Contract - Hardaway was still on his rookie contract and would be cost effective (especially given the expected crazy salaries free agents were going to get) for at least 2 more seasons. Smith had a sizeable player option that no one thought he'd walk away from (which would have been hard for a lot of teams to swallow). Shumpert was going to be a free agent and likely looking at at least the full MLE to retain if not more (something that also would have worked against Shumpert's value).

b. Attitude - this one is more of a relative thing. Hardaway obviously isn't JR Smith from a personality standpoint. Shumpert had gotten a reputation as a guy that was more interested in off court happenings (his music career, celebrity dating, etc.) than working on his game and didn't give the effort that Jackson felt he should have. Hardaway is someone that can still be worked with and improve...he has potential (Smith and Shumpert are basically who they are).

That's how Jackson was able to get a 1st round pick from the Hawks for Hardaway but basically gave away Smith and Shumpert to the Cavs for next to nothing (notice that the Cavs who didn't have salary constraints and who was looking to win now now wanted the 2 more productive guys?). Wasn't for what Hardaway did on the court that was better than Smith or Shumpert but rather what value contractually and from a potential standpoint Hardaway had over the other 2 guys.

Was I surprised that the Knicks were able to get that pick from the Hawks for him? Absolutely. Didn't think Hardaway had that type of value. Almost choked on my drink when they announced it. But then again, I wasn't a fan of Hardaway. But all that aside, it doesn't mean Hardaway's crap or that he doesn't have skills or he can't improve. The Hawks got who they felt was more value and who offered things that fit their situation. We won't know who won the trade for at least another year or two.

[moocow007]

Not sure why Hawk fans are in dismay over losing the 19th pick?
Your GM did not want/need Grant. you have a great pg rotation already.
Did you guys want bobby portis? no other rookie around there has made any noise in preseason.

Well considering that Bazemore is now the starting SF, you could argue that they could have used a SF. Portis is probably more PF than SF though he can probably play both spots if needed. There was Rondae Hollis Jefferson, Justin Anderson, Kevon Looney and Larry Nance Jr (who I had as one of my sleepers). But yeah, Grant or Portis would have been the BPA at 19 and you can probably argue that the Hawks needed neither. Like I said in the previous post, we won't know who won the trade for some time. It could be that both teams won the trade...wouldn't that be great?

[basketbrawler]

THJ is awful, maybe the worst guard n the NBA. No idea why the Hawls even got him. They dont need him at all.

Lamar Patterson is another story - this kid is going to be good! Think he might be starting by mid season and will fill your Demarre Carroll void very well.

[ATL Boy]

I think THj is on the bench because he still hasn't grasped the system. Not a minute played in the first two games, but I think he'll be in the rotation by December, maybe New Years at the latest.

[Jamaaliver]

NBC Sports weighs in on THJ's lack of playing time thus far:

Hardaway was inactive for the Hawks’ opener against the Pistons...against Hardaway’s old team last night, Hardaway was upgraded to a DNP-CD.

This isn’t a great start to Hardaway’s Atlanta tenure, and it intensifies doubts about the trade to get him. Wouldn’t the Hawks be better off with someone with four years remaining on his rookie-scale contract rather than Hardaway, who becomes a free agent in just two? If they wanted a wing, they could have kept their pick and drafted Kelly Oubre, Sam Dekker, Justin Anderson or R.J. Hunter. Or they could’ve taken the best player available, Bobby Portis.

The Knicks lost to Atlanta last night, 112-101, but they can at least take solace that the very early returns say they pulled one over on the Hawks.

Still early, and hopefully he gets in tonight's game against CHA. 2nd night of a back-to-back for us...he'll have fresh legs along with Thabo. Gotta keep this kid's confidence up.

Hopefully he's not getting the John Jenkins/Adreian Payne treatment from Bud this early.

Time will tell.

[Jamaaliver]

C-Viv addresses the same issue over on myajc:

Tim Hardaway Jr. is still waiting to make his Hawks debut.

The playing time and rotation of the Hawks’ wings, Patterson in particular, is an indication of the current hierarchy. The Hawks have been impressed with Patterson’s development. He has entered in the first quarter of both games and played key fourth-quarter minutes.

Hardaway said he still felt a part of the team even while being inactive.

“Obviously you always want to be active as a player and you always want to dress to do what you can to help the team win,” Hardaway said. “At the same time, I was there on the sideline calling out plays for my teammates, seeing things coming before they could see it and yelling out calls. At the end of the day, I felt like I was part of the team in that aspect and I was out there communicating and helping those guys try to win.”

Glad to hear he's saying all the right things and keeping a positive attitude.

[Jamaaliver]

C-Viv does another write-up on THJ's absence from the rotation:

Tim Hardaway Jr. will get his chance.

The guard, who the Hawks gave up their first-round draft pick for this year, has yet to play this season. He continues to be patient in waiting for his chance. Hawks coach Mike Budenholzer, amid many questions, emphasized again Friday that Hardaway will be a contributing part of the Hawks’ roster.

Budenholzer said Friday of an opportunity for Hardaway. “It will happen.”

Here are five reasons why Hardaway has not been a part of the rotation yet early in the season.

1. Hardaway dealt with a wrist issue while with the Knicks last season. It cost him games in New York. While getting to 100 percent, he lagged in his offseason shooting and conditioning.

2. The Hawks’ system consists of completely new concepts for Hardaway. Without much of the summer, Hardaway lost on-court drill work to get familiar with the complexities in which the Hawks operate under offensively and defensively.

3. Lamar Patterson and Justin Holiday are ahead of Hardaway in the rotation. It’s important to note that both are older than Hardaway. Although he played in Turkey last season, Patterson spent two summers with the Hawks in their Las Vegas Summer League entry running the system.

4. The Hawks have used the combination of Jeff Teague and Dennis Schroder more this season.

5. The Hawks play with a defense-first mentality. Hardaway is an offensive-minded player. He’ll need to catch up defensively with Patterson and Holiday. The Hawks are 10th in the NBA in defensive efficiency. They are going to continue to play to that strength.

After all of those official reasons, Bud gives the real reason in his own words:

“There is real competition,” Budenholzer said. “Those guys are competing for minutes, competing for opportunities. … Right now, those other two guys (Patterson and Holiday) have shown a little bit more and have been given that position and opportunity. Tim is going to have to earn his way into his opportunity. We feel that he will.”

Here

[Jamaaliver]

But it’s all about playing basketball. If you have an open shot, you take it. If (the defender) comes at you, you drive it. You find the open guys. Once you slow the game down and make it simple, it gets pretty easy from there.

Maybe we can get Kent to help get THJ up to snuff on our apparently too-complex-for-him offense.

[earthmansurfer]

Tim got 12 minutes last night! 1-3 and 1-2 on 3pters. Come on Grant...

[Jamaaliver]

Tim got 12 minutes last night! 1-3 and 1-2 on 3pters. Come on Grant...

I still think we can get THJ up to snuff long term...to at least contribute.

But, MAN. The early returns have been undeniably disappointing.

Muddling matters even more, could 2nd Round draftee and rookie swingman Lamar Patterson be the long term solution at SG? he has the IQ, the hustle and defense. He just needs to refine his jumper.

P-Jackson certainly got a bargain on that Jerian Grant selection.