Kings vs Grizzlies Nov 3, 2015

[SacKingZZZ]

Grant, Jerry and Bobby share the same things that we have been saying about Ben. The guy has no confidence and he is providing zilch on the court. I mean, the dude is a starter and yet, got his first basket in the last 10 seconds of the 4th quarter. That's unacceptable.

Anyways, the team defense was terrible and the inability to play without Cousins was bad too.

Scorers that find it difficult to get 5 decent looks a game will often give you just that, ZILCH. Is it him, or is it JJ Hickson all over again? Or Thomas Robinson all over again? etc. Sometimes trying to mold a player into what you need just doesn't work. Vlade went after it this summer and came up empty so at least we know he knows exactly what this team needs on the wing. Still too soon to write Ben off totally but rather than him just "sucking" as it would appear it might just be another instance of what we've seen happen on this team time and time again the last few years. Even if Ben goes out and scores 20 with Cuz out, it doesn't necessarily make him what the team needs. The team needs someone who can impact a game on 5 shots a game because in reality, those are the scraps left over for that position.

Is Ben the type of player that can live off from scraps? I don't see him ever becoming a primary scoring option in the future due to his passive mentality (lack of alpha dog mentality) and his meh ball handling skills. The guy suppose to be this killer shooter that moves well off the ball coming out from college. But instead, majority of the times, he is simply just...there. Not really doing anything. Might as well set up a beach chair and you won't probably see any difference. The guy is closer to a Gerald Green than a Ray Allen talent, tbh. There is a reason why he is only getting 5 shots per game. Because he is not good enough to warrant more shots? You can't tell me if you put Jimmy Butler to the starting 2 position and will only get 5 shots per game. The guy will demand more shots because...he is good. BMac is not. For the Kings' sake, I hope I'm very wrong about Ben.

Right now it doesn't look like he can live off scraps. We've seen instances where he's looked for his scoring, usually when someone is out though so it doesn't really help. It's hard to really judge his talent because he's never been put in a position to fully display it. That shouldn't be the teams concern however, the concern is on patching the holes with the right fit.

The last thing you want is anyone demanding shots over Cousins or Gay unless they are of a greater talent level. Otherwise it won't work, not with two PG's as your 3rd and 4th guys especially.

[Wolfay]

Grant, Jerry and Bobby share the same things that we have been saying about Ben. The guy has no confidence and he is providing zilch on the court. I mean, the dude is a starter and yet, got his first basket in the last 10 seconds of the 4th quarter. That's unacceptable.

Anyways, the team defense was terrible and the inability to play without Cousins was bad too.

Scorers that find it difficult to get 5 decent looks a game will often give you just that, ZILCH. Is it him, or is it JJ Hickson all over again? Or Thomas Robinson all over again? etc. Sometimes trying to mold a player into what you need just doesn't work. Vlade went after it this summer and came up empty so at least we know he knows exactly what this team needs on the wing. Still too soon to write Ben off totally but rather than him just "sucking" as it would appear it might just be another instance of what we've seen happen on this team time and time again the last few years. Even if Ben goes out and scores 20 with Cuz out, it doesn't necessarily make him what the team needs. The team needs someone who can impact a game on 5 shots a game because in reality, those are the scraps left over for that position.

Uh, what? You keep pounding that narrative, but neither had anything to do with fit. They both suck. They sucked here, they sucked elsewhere, they still suck, and they will always suck. That's why they didn't work. End of story and I'm getting really sick of you bringing them up.

[SacKingZZZ]

Grant, Jerry and Bobby share the same things that we have been saying about Ben. The guy has no confidence and he is providing zilch on the court. I mean, the dude is a starter and yet, got his first basket in the last 10 seconds of the 4th quarter. That's unacceptable.

Anyways, the team defense was terrible and the inability to play without Cousins was bad too.

Scorers that find it difficult to get 5 decent looks a game will often give you just that, ZILCH. Is it him, or is it JJ Hickson all over again? Or Thomas Robinson all over again? etc. Sometimes trying to mold a player into what you need just doesn't work. Vlade went after it this summer and came up empty so at least we know he knows exactly what this team needs on the wing. Still too soon to write Ben off totally but rather than him just "sucking" as it would appear it might just be another instance of what we've seen happen on this team time and time again the last few years. Even if Ben goes out and scores 20 with Cuz out, it doesn't necessarily make him what the team needs. The team needs someone who can impact a game on 5 shots a game because in reality, those are the scraps left over for that position.

Uh, what? You keep pounding that narrative, but neither had anything to do with fit. They both suck. They sucked here, they sucked elsewhere, they still suck, and they will always suck. That's why they didn't work. End of story and I'm getting really sick of you bringing them up.

Not nearly as sick as I am at people not understanding the correlation and how to avoid the same pitfalls. And you're still pounding that narrative? They just "suck". Last I checked Hickson somehow found his way right back into the marginal player he was pre-Kings so if he didn't "suck" then he "sucks" now?

Now, do I think both are great players? No, they are role players, and with the Kings the wrong role players for the team. When given more opportunity Hickson and Robinson have gone beyond what they did in Sac. Hickson is a proven example of situation and it's effect. The year after his Kings run, in a role more befitting his talent he goes right up to 12 and 10 on 56% shooting.

So.... where's your evidence that he just sucks??? So, you still can't see that the situation he was in with Sac might have been the catalyst or a large part of the reason behind his failure here? The stats are all right there if you want to check.

[Wolfay]

Scorers that find it difficult to get 5 decent looks a game will often give you just that, ZILCH. Is it him, or is it JJ Hickson all over again? Or Thomas Robinson all over again? etc. Sometimes trying to mold a player into what you need just doesn't work. Vlade went after it this summer and came up empty so at least we know he knows exactly what this team needs on the wing. Still too soon to write Ben off totally but rather than him just "sucking" as it would appear it might just be another instance of what we've seen happen on this team time and time again the last few years. Even if Ben goes out and scores 20 with Cuz out, it doesn't necessarily make him what the team needs. The team needs someone who can impact a game on 5 shots a game because in reality, those are the scraps left over for that position.

Uh, what? You keep pounding that narrative, but neither had anything to do with fit. They both suck. They sucked here, they sucked elsewhere, they still suck, and they will always suck. That's why they didn't work. End of story and I'm getting really sick of you bringing them up.

Not nearly as sick as I am at people not understanding the correlation and how to avoid the same pitfalls. And you're still pounding that narrative? They just "suck". Last I checked Hickson somehow found his way right back into the marginal player he was pre-Kings so if he didn't "suck" then he "sucks" now?

Now, do I think both are great players? No, they are role players, and with the Kings the wrong role players for the team. When given more opportunity Hickson and Robinson have gone beyond what they did in Sac. Hickson is a proven example of situation and it's effect. The year after his Kings run, in a role more befitting his talent he goes right up to 12 and 10 on 56% shooting.

So.... where's your evidence that he just sucks??? So, you still can't see that the situation he was in with Sac might have been the catalyst or a large part of the reason behind his failure here? The stats are all right there if you want to check.

Yea, that's why Denver has been in playoff contention the past few years. Oh wait... And let's ask how much Mike Malone likes JJ Hickson. I guess keeping the bench warm is something a role player does.

Thomas Robinson is a bust. Plain and simple, and that's probably why you gave up that ghost when I called you out on it.

[SacKingZZZ]

Uh, what? You keep pounding that narrative, but neither had anything to do with fit. They both suck. They sucked here, they sucked elsewhere, they still suck, and they will always suck. That's why they didn't work. End of story and I'm getting really sick of you bringing them up.

Not nearly as sick as I am at people not understanding the correlation and how to avoid the same pitfalls. And you're still pounding that narrative? They just "suck". Last I checked Hickson somehow found his way right back into the marginal player he was pre-Kings so if he didn't "suck" then he "sucks" now?

Now, do I think both are great players? No, they are role players, and with the Kings the wrong role players for the team. When given more opportunity Hickson and Robinson have gone beyond what they did in Sac. Hickson is a proven example of situation and it's effect. The year after his Kings run, in a role more befitting his talent he goes right up to 12 and 10 on 56% shooting.

So.... where's your evidence that he just sucks??? So, you still can't see that the situation he was in with Sac might have been the catalyst or a large part of the reason behind his failure here? The stats are all right there if you want to check.

Yea, that's why Denver has been in playoff contention the past few years. Oh wait... And let's ask how much Mike Malone likes JJ Hickson. I guess keeping the bench warm is something a role player does.

Thomas Robinson is a bust. Plain and simple, and that's probably why you gave up that ghost when I called you out on it.

Lets not change the entire point of my argument. The conversation was strictly based on individual performance, and I never made the argument that Robinson wasn't a bust so point me to that ghost if you wouldn't mind. He's had some decent numbers when given the chance. Hmmm... called me out huh? I think I've heard that before... Anyway, he's up near the upper half in the league in rebound rate so it could be a lot worse.

Also, forgot another name, brought it up in the other thread as you already know, but Marcus "I suck too!" Thornton and his production this season. Yeah, no correlation at all.

Players that just plain "suck" don't reappear with the alteration of their usage. If and when they do it's usually a sign.

[Wolfay]

Thornton doesn't suck. He just doesn't give a damn most of the time. That's always been my gripe with him, but thanks again for proving my point that you like rewrite history to fit your pseudo-insights.

Hickson and Robinson do suck. Get over it. They suck, and you again said nothing that changed that. They didn't reappear as anything except for the same players that they were on the Kings: mediocre.

[SacKingZZZ]

Thornton doesn't suck. He just doesn't give a damn most of the time. That's always been my gripe with him, but thanks again for proving my point that you like rewrite history to fit your pseudo-insights.

Hickson and Robinson do suck. Get over it. They suck, and you again said nothing that changed that. They didn't reappear as anything except for the same players that they were on the Kings: mediocre.

"Sucking" is relative to the opinion of the player on which you place the definition. I said at the time that Hickson could return to form if placed in the right situation. Now, post me some Hickson stats and tell me where he didn't return to form. I'm still waiting.

[Wolfay]

Thornton doesn't suck. He just doesn't give a damn most of the time. That's always been my gripe with him, but thanks again for proving my point that you like rewrite history to fit your pseudo-insights.

Hickson and Robinson do suck. Get over it. They suck, and you again said nothing that changed that. They didn't reappear as anything except for the same players that they were on the Kings: mediocre.

"Sucking" is relative to the opinion of the player on which you place the definition. I said at the time that Hickson could return to form if placed in the right situation. Now, post me some Hickson stats and tell me where he didn't return to form. I'm still waiting.

What form? Mediocre numbers on less than mediocre teams?

Here's your stats.

2011-2012 Sacramento Record: 22-44, Finished 5th in NBA Pacific Division
2011-2012 Portland Record: 28-38, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2012-2013 Portland Record: 33-49, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2013-2014 Denver Record: 36-46, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2014-2015 Denver Record: 30-52, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2015-2016 Denver Record: 3-4, 5th in NBA Northwest Division (while rotting on Mike Malone's bench)

He's a one-way ticket to lotto oblivion.

[SacKingZZZ]

Thornton doesn't suck. He just doesn't give a damn most of the time. That's always been my gripe with him, but thanks again for proving my point that you like rewrite history to fit your pseudo-insights.

Hickson and Robinson do suck. Get over it. They suck, and you again said nothing that changed that. They didn't reappear as anything except for the same players that they were on the Kings: mediocre.

"Sucking" is relative to the opinion of the player on which you place the definition. I said at the time that Hickson could return to form if placed in the right situation. Now, post me some Hickson stats and tell me where he didn't return to form. I'm still waiting.

What form? Mediocre numbers on less than mediocre teams?

Here's your stats.

2011-2012 Sacramento Record: 22-44, Finished 5th in NBA Pacific Division
2011-2012 Portland Record: 28-38, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2012-2013 Portland Record: 33-49, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2013-2014 Denver Record: 36-46, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2014-2015 Denver Record: 30-52, Finished 4th in NBA Northwest Division
2015-2016 Denver Record: 3-4, 5th in NBA Northwest Division (while rotting on Mike Malone's bench)

He's a one-way ticket to lotto oblivion.

Those don't look like Hickson stats to me, they look like team stats.

[Wolfay]

They're Hickson stats in context. I thought an anti-analytic, anti-Moreyball guy would be more appreciative of that.

[SacKingZZZ]

They're Hickson stats in context. I thought an anti-analytic, anti-Moreyball guy would be more appreciative of that.

I'm not disagreeing about his impact or lack thereof, but if you're going to post them in context then you would first have to show the records of ALL the teams he played significant minutes for if you're trying to prove that he's a major why teams suck. Regardless this is pretty far off the original point anyway.