Progression of JV

[Johnny Bball]

He's saying that it's erroneous to compare a guy who's only effective within 10ft of the basket to players who play beyond that range. Big men who play exclusively in the post have high FG%. It's not like Jonas is reinventing the wheel.

Lets not undersell how dominant he is at scoring though. He had the highest points per front court touch last year. Coupled with being the best at scoring from post ups last year too, lets take that in for a second. Do we, as a fan base, acknowledge how incredible it is to have a young talent as good as this? These are amazing numbers.

This year so far...

He's a hair higher than Kosta Koufos, Robin Lopez and Farried for post touches. He's 16th in post touches overall with a pts% of 109.8 lol. Ahead of him; only one person has a lower turnover percentage and his pass percentage is 6th worse, still ahead of Whiteside, Drummond and Howard.

He's 34th in paint touches. Look at the stuff yourself. Same head scratching stuff.

Kosta Koufus? Really?

Sometimes you just have to acknowledge what's going on and how good of a young player he is. He needs more touches. It's best for the team now, come playoff time and moving forward into the future.

What would be best for the team is if he could improve his passing and court vision, not giving him a couple more touches a game. There's a reason why I argue this ad nauseam, because if he can fix his passing he immediately becomes an elite center in the league. He becomes unstoppable, and he starts becoming the center we've always envisioned he'd be.

Giving him a couple more touches a game would push the margins more, but improving his passing would morph the entire structure of our team.

I think you have to add a 20' jump-shot too, but then that's not just unstoppable, its Tim Duncan.

[Kabookalu]

Lets not undersell how dominant he is at scoring though. He had the highest points per front court touch last year. Coupled with being the best at scoring from post ups last year too, lets take that in for a second. Do we, as a fan base, acknowledge how incredible it is to have a young talent as good as this? These are amazing numbers.

This year so far...


Kosta Koufus? Really?

Sometimes you just have to acknowledge what's going on and how good of a young player he is. He needs more touches. It's best for the team now, come playoff time and moving forward into the future.

What would be best for the team is if he could improve his passing and court vision, not giving him a couple more touches a game. There's a reason why I argue this ad nauseam, because if he can fix his passing he immediately becomes an elite center in the league. He becomes unstoppable, and he starts becoming the center we've always envisioned he'd be.

Giving him a couple more touches a game would push the margins more, but improving his passing would morph the entire structure of our team.

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

It's going to be hard to use Jonas as a decoy if the ball doesn't come out when he gets it. And giving the ball to Jonas more doesn't add diversity to the offense. Diversity in an offense is what the Warriors are doing where they have a plethora of options available to them every beat in their offense. All of their players can play off of each other because of their high basketball IQ, shooting, and overall talent. Every second on offense they're always a threat to score from all lengths of the court. Everyone plays off of each other so well, their talents are so integrated well with each others.

With Jonas it's watching him post up, and that's literally it. He'll throw up a shot. There's no other variation to that play when we give the ball to Jonas. There's no 2 man action, there's no kicking out when the defense collapses to swing the ball around the horn for a good open shot, there's no passing to the corner shooter when someone helps one pass away, no big to big passing, none of that. It's Jonas goes to work in the offense, that's it, and no one can play off of that.

It's so limited in scope because the majority of the time it only comes in two results; Jonas misses or Jonas makes it. Well there's another one, Jonas passes it back out to the perimeter to reset the play, giving us even less time to get a good shot off. I was critical of Bosh and his passing, but his passing was heads and shoulders above Jonas'. Those 2 winning seasons in the Colangelo era wouldn't have been possible if Bosh had Jonas' passing ability.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Lets not undersell how dominant he is at scoring though. He had the highest points per front court touch last year. Coupled with being the best at scoring from post ups last year too, lets take that in for a second. Do we, as a fan base, acknowledge how incredible it is to have a young talent as good as this? These are amazing numbers.

This year so far...


Kosta Koufus? Really?

Sometimes you just have to acknowledge what's going on and how good of a young player he is. He needs more touches. It's best for the team now, come playoff time and moving forward into the future.

What would be best for the team is if he could improve his passing and court vision, not giving him a couple more touches a game. There's a reason why I argue this ad nauseam, because if he can fix his passing he immediately becomes an elite center in the league. He becomes unstoppable, and he starts becoming the center we've always envisioned he'd be.

Giving him a couple more touches a game would push the margins more, but improving his passing would morph the entire structure of our team.

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

[slothrop8]

What would be best for the team is if he could improve his passing and court vision, not giving him a couple more touches a game. There's a reason why I argue this ad nauseam, because if he can fix his passing he immediately becomes an elite center in the league. He becomes unstoppable, and he starts becoming the center we've always envisioned he'd be.

Giving him a couple more touches a game would push the margins more, but improving his passing would morph the entire structure of our team.

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

I would argue that his AST/100 is regressing because teams are coming with hard doubles less often. Teams are hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive about giving up open 3s. As a result, it is my perception (I have no stats to back this up - would be interested to know if/where such things are tracked) that teams are coming with hard double teams on the post with decreasing frequency each year. For a scorer as efficient as Jonas - if the help doesn't come early - he shouldn't be passing - he should be taking and getting a shot up. If there's no help or the help is too late - JV shooting is going to be higher percentage than anything we're likely to get if he passes back out of the post. On the rare occasion that early help comes - I've seen JV make the right pass. It just doesn't happen that often to my eyes.

[vini_vidi_vici]

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

I would argue that his AST/100 is regressing because teams are coming with hard doubles less often. Teams are hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive about giving up open 3s. As a result, it is my perception (I have no stats to back this up - would be interested to know if/where such things are tracked) that teams are coming with hard double teams on the post with decreasing frequency each year. For a scorer as efficient as Jonas - if the help doesn't come early - he shouldn't be passing - he should be taking and getting a shot up. If there's no help or the help is too late - JV shooting is going to be higher percentage than anything we're likely to get if he passes back out of the post. On the rare occasion that early help comes - I've seen JV make the right pass. It just doesn't happen that often to my eyes.

Ive actually seen the opposite and it was to the extreme starting with the MIA game. Teams are sagging the paint because they dont shoot many 3s, nor do they hit them at a high clip. Its killing penetration for the Gs, and even DDs PostUps (who along with LS) are more efficient at them, as per Synergy. But ofcourse, who argues for more DD PostUps??

Hes shooting PostUps at a .89 OPPP, its not something crazy as most seem to think. Where JV has excelled is off Cuts 1.70 OPPP on ~18% volume.

[hsb]

What would be best for the team is if he could improve his passing and court vision, not giving him a couple more touches a game. There's a reason why I argue this ad nauseam, because if he can fix his passing he immediately becomes an elite center in the league. He becomes unstoppable, and he starts becoming the center we've always envisioned he'd be.

Giving him a couple more touches a game would push the margins more, but improving his passing would morph the entire structure of our team.

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

He doesn't have to have a dramatic change in his passing game. Put his game in context. Out of the 15 player who have more post touches, only 5 have have a pass percentage over 20%. He's just below Kevin Love for the year. He's also above Aldrige, Mozgov and Gobert.

He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He needs to improve on his assist totals. Sure, but the current state of his assists isn't justification for the quantity of touches. He's 23, you don't hold on to current weaknesses too strongly. He needs more touches.

[slothrop8]

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

I would argue that his AST/100 is regressing because teams are coming with hard doubles less often. Teams are hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive about giving up open 3s. As a result, it is my perception (I have no stats to back this up - would be interested to know if/where such things are tracked) that teams are coming with hard double teams on the post with decreasing frequency each year. For a scorer as efficient as Jonas - if the help doesn't come early - he shouldn't be passing - he should be taking and getting a shot up. If there's no help or the help is too late - JV shooting is going to be higher percentage than anything we're likely to get if he passes back out of the post. On the rare occasion that early help comes - I've seen JV make the right pass. It just doesn't happen that often to my eyes.

Ive actually seen the opposite and it was to the extreme starting with the MIA game. Teams are sagging the paint because they dont shoot many 3s, nor do they hit them at a high clip. Its killing penetration for the Gs, and even DDs PostUps (who along with LS) are more efficient at them, as per Synergy. But ofcourse, who argues for more DD PostUps??

Hes shooting PostUps at a .89 OPPP, its not something crazy as most seem to think. Where JV has excelled is off Cuts 1.70 OPPP on ~18% volume.

I saw a little in the second half of the Miami game - but of course that was the first game we played where both Carroll and Ross were out and we had few if any 3 pt shooting options on the floor. When we have no 3 pt shooting out there with JV - teams should be bringing hard doubles. Some will figure that out - others won't. Teams that don't should be punished by JV. When teams do figure it out - JV has to recognize it and move the ball. Will be interesting to see what the Pelicans try to do tonight. My bet is they try to let Asik defend him 1-on-1 - otherwise why are they paying Asik the money they do. My guess would be JV makes them pay for that until they come with the double.

Re: post ups - I'd argue for more DD post-ups when the match up is right. When looking at post up efficiency numbers - consider wings tend to post up much more often when they have mismatches. Their efficiency should be higher - they usually are only pulling that trick out of the bag when they have a significant size/ability mismatch. Bigs on the other hand most often exclusively post up other bigs. Some occasional exceptions - but in general that's how it plays out. Worth bearing in mind when quoting where Bigs are ranking percentile wise on post ups efficiency with low numbers of attempts needed to qualify.

[hsb]

JV had the best PPP and FG% with post-ups last year. He's scoring 50% on post-ups this year and getting fouled. He's going to be a league leader at that spot again by the end of the season.

[vini_vidi_vici]

That's one aspect sure, but you're skipping a step in getting there. Running plays to use post-ups as a decoy and developing a semblance of generating assists is going to need more touches from the post and paint. That's why I'm stating giving him more touches is better now (because he scores at such a high rate), for the playoffs (adds diversity to a guard heavy offense and the team gets accustomed to a player who scores in the post) and for the future (he's one of the most talented young players in the league, give him more reps).

To also mention as it's on topic; Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage. Paint touches is more of the same but he ranks even lower for touches. He's destroying everyone on points too. The Raptors are last in hand-offs for instance, I wouldn't be shocked he has to generate more off of offensive rebounds than a lot of his counterparts. But those aren't the valuable touches I'm talking about to take advantage and grow his game.

He's 23 and doing this lol. He needs more touches for the weaknesses you state and with how good he is right now. It's literally a win-win.

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

He doesn't have to have a dramatic change in his passing game. Put it his game in context. Out of the 15 player who have more post touches, only 5 have have a pass percentage over 20%. He's just below Kevin Love for the year. He's also above Aldrige, Mozgov and Gobert.

He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He needs to improve on his assist totals. Sure, but the current state of his assists isn't justification for the quantity of touches. He's 23, you don't hold on to current weaknesses too strongly. He needs more touches.

LMA/KLove also have range and each get alot more ASTs than JV, not too mention they can each operate out the high post because of that. Im not sure they are apt comparisons other than volume of post touches?? (Which hes getting more than LMA on fewer MPG). Whos advocating for more Mozgov post touches?? Hes made 7 passes (not ASTS for which he has 0) out of 51 post touches, thats not something to be concerned about??

There are 3 players getting more Post touches, on less mins than JV in the post.

You hold on to those weaknesses when they go beyond the scope of one set (PostUps). FWIW his PostUps are .89 OPPP, contrary to the SportsVu #s, which muddy the waters even further.

If you dont think his passing is an issue than I dont know what to tell you.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I would argue that his AST/100 is regressing because teams are coming with hard doubles less often. Teams are hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive about giving up open 3s. As a result, it is my perception (I have no stats to back this up - would be interested to know if/where such things are tracked) that teams are coming with hard double teams on the post with decreasing frequency each year. For a scorer as efficient as Jonas - if the help doesn't come early - he shouldn't be passing - he should be taking and getting a shot up. If there's no help or the help is too late - JV shooting is going to be higher percentage than anything we're likely to get if he passes back out of the post. On the rare occasion that early help comes - I've seen JV make the right pass. It just doesn't happen that often to my eyes.

Ive actually seen the opposite and it was to the extreme starting with the MIA game. Teams are sagging the paint because they dont shoot many 3s, nor do they hit them at a high clip. Its killing penetration for the Gs, and even DDs PostUps (who along with LS) are more efficient at them, as per Synergy. But ofcourse, who argues for more DD PostUps??

Hes shooting PostUps at a .89 OPPP, its not something crazy as most seem to think. Where JV has excelled is off Cuts 1.70 OPPP on ~18% volume.

I saw a little in the second half of the Miami game - but of course that was the first game we played where both Carroll and Ross were out and we had few if any 3 pt shooting options on the floor. When we have no 3 pt shooting out there with JV - teams should be bringing hard doubles. Some will figure that out - others won't. Teams that don't should be punished by JV. When teams do figure it out - JV has to recognize it and move the ball. Will be interesting to see what the Pelicans try to do tonight. My bet is they try to let Asik defend him 1-on-1 - otherwise why are they paying Asik the money they do. My guess would be JV makes them pay for that until they come with the double.

Re: post ups - I'd argue for more DD post-ups when the match up is right. When looking at post up efficiency numbers - consider wings tend to post up much more often when they have mismatches. Their efficiency should be higher - they usually are only pulling that trick out of the bag when they have a significant size/ability mismatch. Bigs on the other hand most often exclusively post up other bigs. Some occasional exceptions - but in general that's how it plays out. Worth bearing in mind when quoting where Bigs are ranking percentile wise on post ups efficiency with low numbers of attempts needed to qualify.

First TR played in the MIA game.

Teams have been sagging the paint all year, I said they used the extreme in the MIA game as weve all stated because DMC is out. Even with DMC the teams 3PTr/3PT%s are not very good.

My guess is the Pels limit penetration/postups like everyone has by not doubling but by crowding the paint. You seem to think hard doubles is whats happening, its not. Teams are sagging the paint, meaning Jvs drive to right handed hook is being closed out on by help defenders, this is not a double.

DD has been using his post game for yrs, its well beyond a match up thing. It accounts for ~19 of his possessions (per Synergy). His efficiency is high because hes performing well, and likely an outlier as of right now, but again, no one is saying feed him more post ups despite being 19 points per 100 higher in finishes and being in the 86th percentile league wide.

Actually most bigs dont exclusively post up other bigs, theres alot of high post bigs (who can shoot/pass), theres alot of PnP bigs, theres quite the variety out there, esp in this pace/space era. Infact id argue there is less and less PostUp bigs now than ever before because the reliance on 3s and its influence in ORTG.

[hsb]

Why would more touches this year, despite all the touches previous where there has been regression, all of a sudden lead to some change in his passing game?? His ASTs per 100 is actually regressing each year. The development is going to have to come from whatever touches hes getting, not conjecture that it might (im referencing all ppl who assume this, not just you).

Now if you want to claim it will lead to more efficient scoring, I can get behind that and support it, but he hasnt improved (passing) and is in fact regressing with more/higher USG. This isnt an indictment on him as I would advocate for more touches if he had those numbers or more passing (edit: I meant range), but he doesnt. As such I dont see this light switch you and others keep advocating will/might happen, nor does anything really back that up.

He doesn't have to have a dramatic change in his passing game. Put it his game in context. Out of the 15 player who have more post touches, only 5 have have a pass percentage over 20%. He's just below Kevin Love for the year. He's also above Aldrige, Mozgov and Gobert.

He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He needs to improve on his assist totals. Sure, but the current state of his assists isn't justification for the quantity of touches. He's 23, you don't hold on to current weaknesses too strongly. He needs more touches.

LMA/KLove also have range and each get alot more ASTs than JV, not too mention they can each operate out the high post because of that. Im not sure they are apt comparisons other than volume of post touches?? (Which hes getting more than LMA on fewer MPG). Whos advocating for more Mozgov post touches?? Hes made 7 passes (not ASTS for which he has 0) out of 51 post touches, thats not something to be concerned about??

There are 3 players getting more Post touches, on less mins than JV in the post.

You hold on to those weaknesses when they go beyond the scope of one set (PostUps). FWIW his PostUps are .89 OPPP, contrary to the SportsVu #s, which muddy the waters even further.

If you dont think his passing is an issue than I dont know what to tell you.

LMA shares the court with Duncan, Diaw, Leonard and David West. Him to be in his range and basically tied with Duncan in post touches actually highlights the fact he needs more touches. The word obvious comes to mind.

Again - He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He's 23, he needs more touches.

And to close things off...

JV had the best PPP and FG% with post-ups last year. He's scoring 50% on post-ups this year and getting fouled. He's going to be a league leader at that spot again by the end of the season.

[lobosloboslobos]

So, apart from all the things people don't like, so far we have learned in this thread:

JV
- is 2nd in the league in TS%
- he's shooting 61% from the field
- he's shooting 44% from 3-10 ft
- DRtg is 101
- ORtg is 127
- JV is 3rd in deferred rebound chances yet is still 8th in the league in RBD/game in only 28 mins
- He had the highest points per front court touch last year and highest points per post up in the league
- Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage.
- he's averaging 14.6 PPG on 9.1 FGA

BUT

even though we are 19th in the NBA in FG% and JV is the 2nd most efficient scorer in the league who was #1 in several offensive categories last season and turns the ball over at a very low rate we should not give him more touches because he's a black hole who doesn't rack up assists

smh

[vini_vidi_vici]

He doesn't have to have a dramatic change in his passing game. Put it his game in context. Out of the 15 player who have more post touches, only 5 have have a pass percentage over 20%. He's just below Kevin Love for the year. He's also above Aldrige, Mozgov and Gobert.

He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He needs to improve on his assist totals. Sure, but the current state of his assists isn't justification for the quantity of touches. He's 23, you don't hold on to current weaknesses too strongly. He needs more touches.

LMA/KLove also have range and each get alot more ASTs than JV, not too mention they can each operate out the high post because of that. Im not sure they are apt comparisons other than volume of post touches?? (Which hes getting more than LMA on fewer MPG). Whos advocating for more Mozgov post touches?? Hes made 7 passes (not ASTS for which he has 0) out of 51 post touches, thats not something to be concerned about??

There are 3 players getting more Post touches, on less mins than JV in the post.

You hold on to those weaknesses when they go beyond the scope of one set (PostUps). FWIW his PostUps are .89 OPPP, contrary to the SportsVu #s, which muddy the waters even further.

If you dont think his passing is an issue than I dont know what to tell you.

LMA shares the court with Duncan, Diaw, Leonard and David West. Him to be in his range and basically tied with Duncan in post touches actually highlights the fact he needs more touches. The word obvious comes to mind.

Again - He's better than a handful of players who get much more touches while scoring less efficiently per touch, turn the ball over more per touch and are older. His passes per post touch aren't the boogie man people are making it out to be.

He's 23, he needs more touches.

And to close things off...

JV had the best PPP and FG% with post-ups last year. He's scoring 50% on post-ups this year and getting fouled. He's going to be a league leader at that spot again by the end of the season.

These are your comparisons, youre actually highlighting my point. JV doesnt have the range that any of those Spurs do, nor is he the passer any of those Spurs are. JV shares the court with KL/DD guys with high USG aswell, who create for others. I too thought that was obvious, and stated no less.

And hes scoring on .89OPPP per PostUp finish. Thats worse than DD.

Hes 23, and his USG% has gone up every yr, with the exception of this yr where its the same as last (but with more mins means more touches), but again small sample.

Hes made 7 passes, 0 for ASTs, his passing and thats just in the 27% of FC touches that are Post touches, youre neglecting 73% I guess?? His passing is an issue, youre just focused on those 7 delightful passes as an anecdote. Again where is this improvement coming from you think we happen organically from more touches? Last year he had 38 total passes from the post, I guess theres your improvement?? maybe next year he will avg a post pass per game as something to look forward to?

What about his poor RollMan OPPP (38th percentile)? MOAR POST TOUCHES.
What about the aforementioned OPPP in PostUps? MOAR POST TOUCHES.
What about the poor mid-range #s?? MOAR POST TOUCHES.
What about his lacking of passing/ASTs?? MOAR POST TOUCHES.

We get it, you parrot the same things over, using the same stat and say the same thing, hes 23.

Ive already said he has some redeeming values (high FTr/etc..), but all you point to is one set (Post Ups), and repeat the same number over and over again, despite their being differing numbers in the same respect (PostUp OPPP). But I digress, I think weve gone as far as this is going if youre just going to say the same thing, in a thread about JVs progress.

[slothrop8]

Ive actually seen the opposite and it was to the extreme starting with the MIA game. Teams are sagging the paint because they dont shoot many 3s, nor do they hit them at a high clip. Its killing penetration for the Gs, and even DDs PostUps (who along with LS) are more efficient at them, as per Synergy. But ofcourse, who argues for more DD PostUps??

Hes shooting PostUps at a .89 OPPP, its not something crazy as most seem to think. Where JV has excelled is off Cuts 1.70 OPPP on ~18% volume.

I saw a little in the second half of the Miami game - but of course that was the first game we played where both Carroll and Ross were out and we had few if any 3 pt shooting options on the floor. When we have no 3 pt shooting out there with JV - teams should be bringing hard doubles. Some will figure that out - others won't. Teams that don't should be punished by JV. When teams do figure it out - JV has to recognize it and move the ball. Will be interesting to see what the Pelicans try to do tonight. My bet is they try to let Asik defend him 1-on-1 - otherwise why are they paying Asik the money they do. My guess would be JV makes them pay for that until they come with the double.

Re: post ups - I'd argue for more DD post-ups when the match up is right. When looking at post up efficiency numbers - consider wings tend to post up much more often when they have mismatches. Their efficiency should be higher - they usually are only pulling that trick out of the bag when they have a significant size/ability mismatch. Bigs on the other hand most often exclusively post up other bigs. Some occasional exceptions - but in general that's how it plays out. Worth bearing in mind when quoting where Bigs are ranking percentile wise on post ups efficiency with low numbers of attempts needed to qualify.

First TR played in the MIA game.

Teams have been sagging the paint all year, I said they used the extreme in the MIA game as weve all stated because DMC is out. Even with DMC the teams 3PTr/3PT%s are not very good.

My guess is the Pels limit penetration/postups like everyone has by not doubling but by crowding the paint. You seem to think hard doubles is whats happening, its not. Teams are sagging the paint, meaning Jvs drive to right handed hook is being closed out on by help defenders, this is not a double.

DD has been using his post game for yrs, its well beyond a match up thing. It accounts for ~19 of his possessions (per Synergy). His efficiency is high because hes performing well, and likely an outlier as of right now, but again, no one is saying feed him more post ups despite being 19 points per 100 higher in finishes and being in the 86th percentile league wide.

Actually most bigs dont exclusively post up other bigs, theres alot of high post bigs (who can shoot/pass), theres alot of PnP bigs, theres quite the variety out there, esp in this pace/space era. Infact id argue there is less and less PostUp bigs now than ever before because the reliance on 3s and its influence in ORTG.

Right on TR in Miami - my mistake.

re: hard doubling of JV. I said the opposite. Little hard doubling is happening - outside of a little in the Miami game.

re: post up efficiency - of course there's lots of different kinds of bigs - but we are talking in the context of post-up efficiency stats. When bigs get post-up touches - they are generally being defended by other bigs unless there's been a switch and they catch someone in a mismatch. The bulk of a bigs post up touches will come when defended by other bigs.
For wings - they will go to the post-up touch when they get a mismatch. A wing's post up touches are likely to be the result of a mismatch more often than those of a big. Something to bear in mind when quoting post-up percentile touches.

[Arman_tanzarian]

My god JV has become quite the enigma here. Move over DD and Casey.

[vini_vidi_vici]

So, apart from all the things people don't like, so far we have learned in this thread:

JV
- is 2nd in the league in TS%
- he's shooting 61% from the field
- he's shooting 44% from 3-10 ft
- DRtg is 101
- ORtg is 127
- JV is 3rd in deferred rebound chances yet is still 8th in the league in RBD/game in only 28 mins
- He had the highest points per front court touch last year and highest points per post up in the league
- Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage.
- he's averaging 14.6 PPG on 9.1 FGA

BUT

even though we are 19th in the NBA in FG% and JV is the 2nd most efficient scorer in the league who was #1 in several offensive categories last season and turns the ball over at a very low rate we should not give him more touches because he's a black hole who doesn't rack up assists

smh

Curious as to why you neglected all the other stats that werent as flattering that were mentioned in this thread??

RollMan OPPP.
PostUP OPPP.
REB Chances.
REB per Chance.
DREB Chances.
DREB per Chance.
Rim Protection.
ASTr.
Range.
etc..

Or was that your point?

[vini_vidi_vici]

I saw a little in the second half of the Miami game - but of course that was the first game we played where both Carroll and Ross were out and we had few if any 3 pt shooting options on the floor. When we have no 3 pt shooting out there with JV - teams should be bringing hard doubles. Some will figure that out - others won't. Teams that don't should be punished by JV. When teams do figure it out - JV has to recognize it and move the ball. Will be interesting to see what the Pelicans try to do tonight. My bet is they try to let Asik defend him 1-on-1 - otherwise why are they paying Asik the money they do. My guess would be JV makes them pay for that until they come with the double.

Re: post ups - I'd argue for more DD post-ups when the match up is right. When looking at post up efficiency numbers - consider wings tend to post up much more often when they have mismatches. Their efficiency should be higher - they usually are only pulling that trick out of the bag when they have a significant size/ability mismatch. Bigs on the other hand most often exclusively post up other bigs. Some occasional exceptions - but in general that's how it plays out. Worth bearing in mind when quoting where Bigs are ranking percentile wise on post ups efficiency with low numbers of attempts needed to qualify.

First TR played in the MIA game.

Teams have been sagging the paint all year, I said they used the extreme in the MIA game as weve all stated because DMC is out. Even with DMC the teams 3PTr/3PT%s are not very good.

My guess is the Pels limit penetration/postups like everyone has by not doubling but by crowding the paint. You seem to think hard doubles is whats happening, its not. Teams are sagging the paint, meaning Jvs drive to right handed hook is being closed out on by help defenders, this is not a double.

DD has been using his post game for yrs, its well beyond a match up thing. It accounts for ~19 of his possessions (per Synergy). His efficiency is high because hes performing well, and likely an outlier as of right now, but again, no one is saying feed him more post ups despite being 19 points per 100 higher in finishes and being in the 86th percentile league wide.

Actually most bigs dont exclusively post up other bigs, theres alot of high post bigs (who can shoot/pass), theres alot of PnP bigs, theres quite the variety out there, esp in this pace/space era. Infact id argue there is less and less PostUp bigs now than ever before because the reliance on 3s and its influence in ORTG.

Right on TR in Miami - my mistake.

re: hard doubling of JV. I said the opposite. Little hard doubling is happening - outside of a little in the Miami game.

re: post up efficiency - of course there's lots of different kinds of bigs - but we are talking in the context of post-up efficiency stats. When bigs get post-up touches - they are generally being defended by other bigs unless there's been a switch and they catch someone in a mismatch. The bulk of a bigs post up touches will come when defended by other bigs.
For wings - they will go to the post-up touch when they get a mismatch. A wing's post up touches are likely to be the result of a mismatch more often than those of a big. Something to bear in mind when quoting post-up percentile touches.

So if teams are limiting the paint, then why force it into the paint?

So let me guess this str, youre saying Bigs match up with other bigs and Ws matchup with other Ws, etc..?? Im not sure your point. What does that have to do with DD and getting PostUps, which is his strength??

[JShuttlesworth]

We could have MJ in his prime on this team and people would find something to complain about

[vini_vidi_vici]

My god JV has become quite the enigma here. Move over DD and Casey.

Hes a polarizing guy, hes very good at some aspects, not so good at others, yet some refuse to acknowledge his faults, some refuse to acknowledge his strengths. This is bound to happen.

[Alfred]

So, apart from all the things people don't like, so far we have learned in this thread:

JV
- is 2nd in the league in TS%
- he's shooting 61% from the field
- he's shooting 44% from 3-10 ft
- DRtg is 101
- ORtg is 127
- JV is 3rd in deferred rebound chances yet is still 8th in the league in RBD/game in only 28 mins
- He had the highest points per front court touch last year and highest points per post up in the league
- Dwight, Whiteside, Drummond, Gortat and Okafor have less pass percentage than JV on post touches and out of the 15 other guys ahead of him on post touches only Ezeli has a lower turnover percentage.
- he's averaging 14.6 PPG on 9.1 FGA

BUT

even though we are 19th in the NBA in FG% and JV is the 2nd most efficient scorer in the league who was #1 in several offensive categories last season and turns the ball over at a very low rate we should not give him more touches because he's a black hole who doesn't rack up assists

smh

Curious as to why you neglected all the other stats that werent as flattering that were mentioned in this thread??

RollMan OPPP.
PostUP OPPP.
REB Chances.
REB per Chance.
DREB Chances.
DREB per Chance.
Rim Protection.
ASTr.
Range.
etc..

Or was that your point?

I think he's talking about him being more involved in the offense, and most of the stats there aren't related to that.