LAC(4-2) vs PedoBears(3-4) game #7

[QRich3]

I'm not sure how you guys think a good defense comes along, but I get the impression that you think coaching really hard is enough. A frontcourt of DJ (lol no, not a DPOY or close to it, very good offensive player though), Blake, and no one at the wing is never gonna be a top defense no matter who it's coached by. Playing Crawford doesn't help but it's far from the main reason the defense is not great. Not every problem comes from him, as much as I don't like the way he plays. I actually think playing Josh Smith at center is fine too, and just like Crawford, he only plays so much to blame everything on how he's used.

[og15]

What I see is that some of these realizations or adjustments or changes that just came a little bit too late.

I know it would have been a bit pre-mature to some, and Jamal was big in the GS series, so maybe it would have been a bad decision, but to me, when you signed J.J. Redick, the writing should have been on the wall to trade Jamal. A smart trade, not just dumping the guy, that would be stupid. This would not be because of any specific fault of Jamal's, but because of the reality of needing to balance your roster. Sometimes you have to trade a little offense for defense. Even if you didn't do it in 13-14, after the season, it should have been clear that you should do it for the sake of balance. You wait too long and the value is no longer there as we are seeing now.

With the little money and poor depth at the end of the roster, instead of going with has been players you are comfortable with, you should have gotten those guys who were young and not solidified yet, but available for minimum contracts (Aminu, Ed Davis, Wayne Ellington, Wes Johnson earlier, etc), those types. Of course some of that was screwed up by not understanding the salary cap which is still an inexcusable error that lost the team a draft pick and forced the teams hand in a trade. Funny thing is that in hindsight, if you wanted a small ball bench, Jared Dudley is actually a good small ball stretch PF. With those minimum guys, it's not about having some magical ability to know who is / will be good, it's just that if you have more of those guys then you have a higher chance of finding one that becomes productive for your team / system. You're not trying to hit 100%, but if you just hit 20-30%, that's 1-2 players over 2 seasons out of about 5 or 6 that could be useful. Those guys could be your 12-15th men who aren't even in the rotation anyways, so it isn't hurting the team to keep them on the roster to develop.

Next, the defense. I'm not saying there is no value to a hard hedge defense, and it helped against GS, and it is something you want to have in your arsenal, but it was almost the same defense VDN used in 12-13, though VDN did more blitzing against the pick and roll. It can work, especially in the RS, and especially against less poised teams, but it can also be exposed. More importantly, it requires certain types of players, so if you believe that is what you want to do, then you have to be cognizant of signing immobile players like Spencer Hawes and the need for more length and athleticism at your wing positions.

I thought with the signing of Hawes that Doc was also planning on adjusting his defense, or at least doing what Indiana did where they would hedge with a guy like West, but stay back with a non-mobile guy like Hibbert. Expecting Hawes to hedge though, that was just a disaster in the making for defense.

It just seems like the team has a plan, but then doesn't fully think of its player acquisitions in regards to that plan, and in some other areas doesn't seem like they have a plan.

Anyways, right now, there are pieces that can be put together in a way that works, and there are still options to move players and adjust the roster in little ways, so we'll see how things unfold. I'll wait until 20-25 games to make any serious judgements, though 15 games in is a good starting spot too.

I'm not sure how much I like Smith as a small ball C even though he's rebounded and blocked shots well. He doesn't get respected enough outside to truly draw defenders out, and he's not that good a slasher to really take advantage of the C's on offense and then their length ends up bothering him. Defensively the man to man is not going so well for him either.

The team is 6th in Ortg and shooting 27% 3PT, so like I've said, I'm never really worried about offense with the stars this team has, but poor defensive rebounding can end up hurting the teams defense, so hopefully they are cognizant of that reality, which I believe they are, but hopefully they do something concrete to address it.

[LACtdom]

Doc has always been good at the X's and O's but he is let down because of his player choices / development. Like Og15 was saying, he had a good defensive system that he knew would work but didn't have the players to pull it off and failed to adapt.

In terms of his decisions regarding players, these are the mistakes I really dislike:

Jared Dudley - He was a decent fit for this team. Doc played him injured and cut him without letting him fit in. If players only get a one year trial at the Clippers then we shouldn't bother with injured players. I believe he could have added value to our team.

Matt Barnes - We needed a starting SF and although Barnes could do the job, he was the defensive glue and energy of our bench unit. We needed him on the bench to make up for some of the others.

Antwan Jamison - It was a blatant lie when Doc told us he was saving him for the playoffs because it wasn't long before he got cut. He was a waste of minutes that could have been given as experience for a younger player.

4th Qtrs - I've always believed that if we have CP, BG, JJ & DJ, we should have enough offensive fire power that it doesn't matter who our SF is and therefore it would be best to sub in someone who can hold their own in the current situation. Doc needs more faith in our offense. He shouldn't be scared to go full D and put in both Lance & Wes/Pierce at SG & SF and simply getting us to play the two man game with CP and Blake while the others spread the floor.

[Ranma]

I'm not sure how you guys think a good defense comes along, but I get the impression that you think coaching really hard is enough. A frontcourt of DJ (lol no, not a DPOY or close to it, very good offensive player though), Blake, and no one at the wing is never gonna be a top defense no matter who it's coached by. Playing Crawford doesn't help but it's far from the main reason the defense is not great. Not every problem comes from him, as much as I don't like the way he plays. I actually think playing Josh Smith at center is fine too, and just like Crawford, he only plays so much to blame everything on how he's used.

Are you kidding me? Remind me again why Doc was hired. He left the Celtics because he didn't want to be in a rebuild situation, which makes sense as he's proven to be bad in identifying and developing talent. It's why he prefers to sign established veterans instead of the more young and athletic options that have been available. He was brought in to get us a championship with the core we gave him with urgency being a priority. I'll say again: offense is not the problem or concern with Doc at the helm, it's his defense, which has been the problem and key to our championship aspirations.

He won a championship in Boston in large part because of a defense built by Tom Thibodeau. It's not like he doesn't know what a good defense looks like or what personnel would be suitable to implement it. DJ, while not a true standalone defensive stalwart, is fine within the system. The problem is not with DJ or Blake Griffin nor even the starting lineup (for the most part), for that matter. It's the bench defense and his personnel choices. We went out and got Wesley Johnson and Cole Aldrich to shore up this shortcoming and yet they have been played sparingly. Sounds kind of odd given why they were brought in in the first place and that they are newcomers who need time to acclimate.

You can continue to play Linus in the pumpkin patch waiting for the Great Pumpkin all night, but the fact remains Doc has not made any improvement on paper with regard to the team's defense during his tenure here. I've already illustrated our trending downward, which by they way, currently has us further down at 21st in opponent points allowed as a team. Defense has less to due with talent than mentality and effort. You have Utah, Detroit, Minnesota, and Boston in the top 10 of these rankings along with elite teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and San Antonio. Saying stuff like, "Well, Doc is trying hard." is not a good enough excuse. He's paid handsomely to realize improvements to get us over the hump and he's only done half the job so far while we're left in a stagnant state, to say the least.

Jeff Van Gundy, a notable former coach and respected TV analyst, even cited last night against the Mavs that our bench needs to get defensive stops. Practically everyone not making excuses for Doc sees this. It was a pleasant surprise to see Luc Mbah a Moute make an appearance in Dallas, but he still continues to misuse personnel. Doc continues to be reluctant to use suitable players and will only consider doing so as a last resort (e.g. injuries, being blown out, etc.).

Smallball is fine as a change-up but should not be used in all situations. How about giving Wesley Johnson a shot in the starting lineup or at least more playing time Jamal Crawford? What about a bench unit that includes Austin Rivers at PG/SG, Cole Aldrich at C, and Josh Smith at PF? I hate focusing on Crawford because he shouldn't even be on the roster, but playing him consistent minutes when he brings nothing defensively just in the hopes of getting the 1 great offensive game out of 10 played from him is frustratingly counterproductive. Playing Josh Smith at center when he's better as a help defender and a clumsy performer in the post on offense is perplexing. Again, doing so occasionally for a different look is fine, but overall his performance at C is lackluster, especially given his preference to hang out on the perimeter.

Defense is part of the "little things" you are so quick to dismiss, but it's important since a good offense can struggle at times, but a good defense tends to be more reliable in biding time for your offense to get its act together as well as even spark it in generating easy baskets off turnovers. I'll remind you again, Doc was brought in to get results and so far he hasn't. While I'm currently more concerned with approach than results, the former begets the latter. It's a clear problem NBA observers sees and it's currently exhibited by our team rankings and the losses we've taken against competitive teams.

Doc continues to be his own worst enemy and given the state of flux the team is currently in, we can no longer afford to indulge his so-called "stubbornness".

[QRich3]

What I see is that some of these realizations or adjustments or changes that just came a little bit too late.

Don't mean to be a dick here, but did you (or anyone else here) realize those adjustments at the time? When we signed Hawes to the MLE, how many people here were saying Hawes was too stiff to play in a hedging system like the one we ran? How many people were asking to sign Ed Davis or Aminu when they could be had for the minimum? (don't think it was ever the case with Aminu btw). It's very easy to come up with bullet points for criticism with the benefit of hindsight, and yet, most of what you mention is still small stuff than doesn't necessarily make a coach as bad as some people paint him here (I know that's not exactly your opinion, I'm just quoting you because you offered some valid counterpoints). Doc can obviously improve, but making him out to be some kind of scapegoat for the shortcomings of the team is just laughable to me.

I know it would have been a bit pre-mature to some, and Jamal was big in the GS series, so maybe it would have been a bad decision, but to me, when you signed J.J. Redick, the writing should have been on the wall to trade Jamal. A smart trade, not just dumping the guy, that would be stupid. This would not be because of any specific fault of Jamal's, but because of the reality of needing to balance your roster. Sometimes you have to trade a little offense for defense. Even if you didn't do it in 13-14, after the season, it should have been clear that you should do it for the sake of balance. You wait too long and the value is no longer there as we are seeing now.

Remember that was coming off a season where Redick played just 35 games, Paul missed about 20, and Crawford and Collison were instrumental in keeping the team afloat. And Collison left for the Kings in the offseason. Again, with the benefit of hindsight it'd be a nice move, but not even the biggest Crawford haters (and I think I was probably the biggest one here by then) were asking for it at the time.

Next, the defense. I'm not saying there is no value to a hard hedge defense, and it helped against GS, and it is something you want to have in your arsenal, but it was almost the same defense VDN used in 12-13, though VDN did more blitzing against the pick and roll. It can work, especially in the RS, and especially against less poised teams, but it can also be exposed. More importantly, it requires certain types of players, so if you believe that is what you want to do, then you have to be cognizant of signing immobile players like Spencer Hawes and the need for more length and athleticism at your wing positions.

Vinny's defense was quite different, Doc had the big mostly try to trap the ball handler on the P&R, Vinny tried to trap the ball everywhere, go for steals and force mistakes, which is a lot more risky. And more importantly, Vinny didn't have a plan B. Doc's teams have been WAY more prepared on defense and have been able to adjust a lot better. For instance against OKC in 2014 they were a lot more conservative, and I thought it was working for a bit. By the way, I think the way we're playing this year is not without risk, if you ask DJ to hold back on the P&R, you're asking him to make more reads, and we all know that's not his strength. We'll see, but it's not like if he had done this before our defense would be obviously better.

He was brought in to get us a championship with the core we gave him with urgency being a priority. I'll say again: offense is not the problem or concern with Doc at the helm, it's his defense, which has been the problem and key to our championship aspirations.

Wasn't that exactly the case with Vinny too? and let me tell you, it'd be exactly the case if you brought whichever defensive coach you like. tbh I don't think you have a point, other than moaning about how the team should be better and it's somehow his fault. You rehash hot takes like the Celtics' defense being good because of Thibs, but your only real point is he mismanages the bench. Which he might, but they play like 10-15 minutes a game. As bad as they can be, they're not the whole of the problem. And somehow you think I said defense is not important?? I rest my case, I guess.

[og15]

Don't mean to be a dick here, but did you (or anyone else here) realize those adjustments at the time? When we signed Hawes to the MLE, how many people here were asking Hawes was too stiff to play in a hedging system like the one we ran? How many people were saying to sign Ed Davis or Aminu when they could be had for the minimum? (don't think it was ever the case with Aminu btw). It's very easy to come up with bullet points for criticism with the benefit of hindsight, and yet, most of what you mention is still small stuff than doesn't necessarily make a coach as bad as some people paint him here (I know that's not exactly your opinion, I'm just quoting you because you offered some valid counterpoints). Doc can obviously improve, but making him out to be some kind of scapegoat for the shortcomings of the team is just laughable to me.

I've wanted Aminu every single off-season since he's become available, and I think a decent amount of people were asking for Ed Davis, but the players also have to want to come to you. Aminu signed a $980K minimum contract with Dallas last season. Still I liked the Hawes signing at the time, but the utilization obviously was hard, and he also just sucked himself. I did think Doc was going to adjust the defense because of Hawes though, not the whole defense, just when Hawes was in the pick and roll action, I really did. It was just too hard a task to expect Hawes to move around like Blake and DJ and not suck, but still, like I said, I don't have real issues with Doc as a coach. I have felt since day 1, and I mentioned it the first off-season that he might have an issue of overly trusting his ability to coach players into being better than the reality which is why it is nice to have the check and balance of a GM that's above him.

In terms of moving Crawford, the idea would be to move him for a SG/SF who is not as good offensively in terms of isolation but a more balanced player and better defensively. This was again something I said in 13-14 off-season just because it seemed to make sense with the addition of Redick and Jamal's age. There were some options, and a move like that would still allow for the team to be able to weather the storm of injuries to guards. It might have been a bad decision, because like I said, Crawford did help a lot against GS, but I think that especially with Jamal's age and known deficiencies, it might have been a good "big picture" decision. Also of course I can't then say that with a different player you still don't have a good enough balance as a team to beat GS in 13-14. Then again, I wanted to keep Bledsoe and just play a backcourt of Paul/Bledsoe as the primary option.

Defensively, Vinny blitzed, basically all the time, which yes is a super high risk / reward defense, but blitz is just the more aggressive version of the hard hedge or longer show that the Clippers have done. We did blitz on Curry and Harden, but the hard hedge it is still a high energy, heavy rotating defense that requires mobiltiy and athleticism all over. I just think that there's no way Doc and his coaching stuff did not see film of Hawes lumbering down the court and thought to themselves that he could actually do that effectively. The players are covering more ground, a lot more than the stay back zone that most teams use. It was a smart defense for Blake and DJ because they are mobile young and athletic guys, it was just not the best defense for the wings of the team and the depth situation. Also the defense was pretty bad when poor short armed Blake was the one on an island having to deal with two guys because DJ was out hedging. It makes wings have to be help defenders, and that's just too much to task a guy like Redick whose size length wise is basically that of a PG, and Jamal as a SF to do. It is more tiring than the pick and roll defense most of the other top defensive teams play, couple that with poor depth, and not ideal roster for the defense, and it can and obviously did end up making the team have to work a lot harder.

...but to be fair I don't think Doc went into any of those seasons believing he would have poor wing depth. Okay 13-14 because he had Dudley. Last season he was aware of that lack of depth, he even mentioned it, but maybe hoping Reggie would be a rotation player? So I understand, he installed the defense in a season where he didn't think his wing depth was bad, and it's not simple to just change the defensive schemes like that, it takes time for guys to have it become second nature.

In terms of DJ's reads, that I can't really disagree with, but if you wanted to go all in with the previous defense, then you certanly had to get the players to match that, and they weren't really doing that, so I don't know...

[LACtdom]

He was brought in to get us a championship with the core we gave him with urgency being a priority. I'll say again: offense is not the problem or concern with Doc at the helm, it's his defense, which has been the problem and key to our championship aspirations.

Wasn't that exactly the case with Vinny too? and let me tell you, it'd be exactly the case if you brought whichever defensive coach you like. tbh I don't think you have a point, other than moaning about how the team should be better and it's somehow his fault. You rehash hot takes like the Celtics' defense being good because of Thibs, but your only real point is he mismanages the bench. Which he might, but they play like 10-15 minutes a game. As bad as they can be, they're not the whole of the problem. And somehow you think I said defense is not important?? I rest my case, I guess.

playing small minutes STILL matters. If Doc played Blake 5 minutes per game would you say that it doesn't matter because it's only 5 minutes? Players like Wes deserve to be in the 15 - 20 area while Jamal should be in the 5 - 15 depending on the situation. A Basketball game is 48 minutes long. If you think that 15 minutes of those games don't matter then that is just naïve. The result of a game is the aggregate of EVERY single play. Since Doc arrived, there have been expectations that we should be contenders. Honestly I question more than just our defense. I have never been confident in any of the following areas:

Training: We often complain that we have players like Hawes and Dudley who are out of shape. Some accountability needs to go on the organisation. I feel as though if Blake trained the team then we would be much better. Our bench looks like Doc said "you guys are NBA players so just go out there and play".

Attitude: Each year, we talk up how good we've been training. Expect games to win themselves. Start poorly, and then we whine and complain to referees.

Minutes Allocations: This can be mind boggling at times as everyone knows. Playing pensioners over youth, offense over defense inappropriately, etc.

In-game Strategies: Waiting until after we've lost before Doc admits that we didn't put the right player on the opposition to stop them scoring.

Season Strategies: For example, Doc is in love with 'Small Ball' and will continue to use this tactic even though it hasn't proven to be a successful long term strategy and instead should be used situationally.

Direction: I have been very frustrated lately with our direction being "We're going to play DJ in the 4th even though he cant shoot FTs... Vinny was wrong".. which is fair enough.. Then we pay a crazy amount of money to keep DJ.. which is fair enough.. surprise surprise, he still can't shoot FTs and now he is sometimes pulled out of games in the 4th. What is Doc's plan with DJ? Are Doc/DJ really trying their best to improve his FTs? If yes, then how long do we stick with a max player who can't play late in games? I feel as though Doc's whole direction for the Clippers is "It'll be okay, don't worry about it".

It is my opinion (as an angry, passionate, fan) that a lot of these things are the responsibility of the head coach (directly, or simply through delegation).

[QRich3]

I don't have real issues with Doc as a coach. I have felt since day 1, and I mentioned it the first off-season that he might have an issue of overly trusting his ability to coach players into being better than the reality which is why it is nice to have the check and balance of a GM that's above him.

I do agree with a lot of your points there, and I'm highlighting this because it's more or less what I wanted to say, he has obvious issues and weaknesses, and makes mistakes often. And yet he is a clearly above average coach that has helped this team a lot.

I'm just trying to put into perspective how silly is most of the criticism I've been reading here lately, and hope this doesn't become an annoying place where people moan constantly about their coach mindlessly just because it's the thing to do, even if they don't have any real substance to pin on him. Like you can complain that his rotations are not neat, and he plays such and such player too much, and this aspect of his strategy is not great, but don't keep annoying everyone during every game trying to blame him for every little thing.

EDIT- I'll expand a little bit now that I have some time:

I did think Doc was going to adjust the defense because of Hawes though, not the whole defense, just when Hawes was in the pick and roll action, I really did. It was just too hard a task to expect Hawes to move around like Blake and DJ and not suck, but still, like I said, I don't have real issues with Doc as a coach.

What exactly would you have done with Hawes though? would you really change the way you guard the P&R only when he was the one involved? the wings and the guy covering the ball handler need to know which way it's going to be covered, and I don't think it'd be a good strategy to tell everyone, "we're gonna hold back when they go at Hawes but we're gonna hedge when they don't", that's just a perfect recipe for confusion and missed rotations. Would you just not have signed him? he was by far the best option on the market for our roster deficiencies and our capspace, and he could have made the offense unreal if he worked out. I'm not sure Doc is much to blame for Hawes sucking, maybe he could have helped a little more, but probably at the expense of the rest of the team. Very few coaches if any can adjust for a role player's weaknesses (specially as big as this) without messing with the whole team's make up.

I've wanted Aminu every single off-season since he's become available, and I think a decent amount of people were asking for Ed Davis, but the players also have to want to come to you. Aminu signed a $980K minimum contract with Dallas last season.

I'm not saying you didn't, I'm saying that's not what most people thought at the time. And that "most people" includes the front offices of every contender. The Mavs had a nearly empty roster and had the luxury to try with a player that was nearly out of the league. It panned out, but most times it doesn't. That's not a reasonable thing to hold against Doc, and it's a front office issue anyway, I was talking about Doc the coach mostly. Same for moving Crawford, it was far from an obvious move at the time, in fact he'd probably have been killed for by the same people killin him in this thread for not moving him.

Defensively, Vinny blitzed, basically all the time, which yes is a super high risk / reward defense, but blitz is just the more aggressive version of the hard hedge or longer show that the Clippers have done. We did blitz on Curry and Harden, but the hard hedge it is still a high energy, heavy rotating defense that requires mobiltiy and athleticism all over. I just think that there's no way Doc and his coaching stuff did not see film of Hawes lumbering down the court and thought to themselves that he could actually do that effectively. The players are covering more ground, a lot more than the stay back zone that most teams use. It was a smart defense for Blake and DJ because they are mobile young and athletic guys, it was just not the best defense for the wings of the team and the depth situation. Also the defense was pretty bad when poor short armed Blake was the one on an island having to deal with two guys because DJ was out hedging. It makes wings have to be help defenders, and that's just too much to task a guy like Redick whose size length wise is basically that of a PG, and Jamal as a SF to do. It is more tiring than the pick and roll defense most of the other top defensive teams play, couple that with poor depth, and not ideal roster for the defense, and it can and obviously did end up making the team have to work a lot harder.

Well, regardless of the broad definition of the system, Vinny's system was way more aggressive and not only on the pick'n'roll, also on random plays like isolations and flare screen type of plays. You look at the Warriors series, which the biggest instance of hard hedging I can remember with Doc. They did trap Steph heavily on side P&R's mainly, but when the ball was out of his hands they got a lot more conservative and didn't try to force the trap as much, which is something Vinny would definitely. What that did was completely take out Steph, and put the pressure to initiate plays on the other 4 guys. Which won us the series if you ask me.
Obviously, the hedging would have worked better if we had long young athletes at every position like OKC does, but wouldn't every system? I really see no reason to think Doc was misusing the defensive talent on the roster with his system, other than a couple very specific cases that I don't think it means he's not a good coach, not even close to it.

Training: We often complain that we have players like Hawes and Dudley who are out of shape. Some accountability needs to go on the organisation. I feel as though if Blake trained the team then we would be much better. Our bench looks like Doc said "you guys are NBA players so just go out there and play".

See, this is the sort of stuff that pisses me off, you're just saying stuff you'd like to have gone otherwise and blaming Doc for no apparent reason. Hawes and Dudley were sh*t when they were here, one was injured and the other was just a bad player, and you have no reason to blame Doc for any of it other than you really want to. Then you list a bunch of random vague sh*t and expect Doc to magically fix everything cause it's his responsibility. I really hope this place doesn't become just a bunch of whiners spitting hot takes like many others in the internet are.

[og15]

Well, people tend to overreact when things aren't going smoothly. I've read people saying that he isn't better than VDN since the team still hasn't gotten past the second round or won significantly more games than VDN's last season, but that lacks context of what has changed on the team.

In terms of Hawes and the defense, it's just because of how I saw Indiana play it. I don't think it is that hard for the players to adjust to that as long as they are communicating, and I think Hawes is a smarter player than he is mobile and coordinated, so putting him in a situation where he has reads is probably better than putting him in one where he has to actually move quickly.

I guess in hindsight if I didn't think I could integrate Hawes into my defense, then yea, I don't sign him and probably give Pierce the MLE and I believe Ed Davis was an option for the Clippers until they signed Hawes, so I guess you go that direction instead. Doc and his crew would probably say that in hindsight, but I guess they thought Hawes could pick it up.

You might be right about people complaining about moving Crawford, but I don't think the idea of moving Crawford for the right return was frowned upon at that time. There weren't as many people "against" him as there are now, but if it was a good trade, I think everyone would have been on board. Remember he was coming off that awful performance vs Memphis where VDN ended up benching him in game 7, so he hadn't left a good taste in people's mouth's based on his post-season performance.

VDN's system was about turning over the other team, Doc's is not so much about that. I do think Doc had hoped he would get some of the guys needed to maximize the system, but that didn't work out so well. I do still think that a thorn in his own side has been overly trusting guys who just aren't good enough to accomplish certain things. In terms of the previous system, it's not that it is "bad", but it is known that it requires more length on the wings to maximize that defense than the Clippers have had. A zone up defense isn't reliant on the wings helping inside and covering as much ground, so the requisite athleticism to maximize it isn't the same. The reality is that basically all the teams who have been the top defenses in the league recently have zoned up against the high pick and roll, or in Indiana's case, mix it up based on which big man is guarding the pick and roll. Just technically analytics wise it gives you the highest chance of good outcome and isn't as energy expenditious.

This is likely why Doc decided to change it this season, but there can be growing pains when adding new things, not to mention a decent amount of new players were added, and in the end, you still need defensive talent to be a good defensive team, so there was no magic that would happen. This team was the 15th ranked defense last season, a more effective system could help you get into the top 10 for example, but if you're talking about being one of the top defenses, it is unlikely that just changing your system alone will get you there.

[nickhx2]

Like you can complain that his rotations are not neat, and he plays such and such player too much, and this aspect of his strategy is not great, but don't keep annoying everyone during every game trying to blame him for every little thing.

what can i say, some of us have started to take after our coach when it comes to complaining!

[LACtdom]

Training: We often complain that we have players like Hawes and Dudley who are out of shape. Some accountability needs to go on the organisation. I feel as though if Blake trained the team then we would be much better. Our bench looks like Doc said "you guys are NBA players so just go out there and play".

See, this is the sort of stuff that pisses me off, you're just saying stuff you'd like to have gone otherwise and blaming Doc for no apparent reason. Hawes and Dudley were sh*t when they were here, one was injured and the other was just a bad player, and you have no reason to blame Doc for any of it other than you really want to. Then you list a bunch of random vague sh*t and expect Doc to magically fix everything cause it's his responsibility. I really hope this place doesn't become just a bunch of whiners spitting hot takes like many others in the internet are.

Umm it's Doc's 3rd season as head coach / GM and it continuously happens. Who is to blame? I believe that you have to be pro-active when it comes to coaching and not just recruit randoms and complain when they are injured or out of shape. Maybe you're right, maybe it's Dudley's fault for being injured. Jamison's fault for being old. Hawes' fault for being the player that he has always been. It's definitely not Doc's fault for choosing them. It may sound like i'm whining but i'm just a passionate fan wanting the Clippers to be the best that they can be.

[LACtdom]

Well, people tend to overreact when things aren't going smoothly. I've read people saying that he isn't better than VDN since the team still hasn't gotten past the second round or won significantly more games than VDN's last season, but that lacks context of what has changed on the team.

Doc Rivers is a better coach then VDN but Doc has it a lot easier than VDN did. Doc had the respect of the stars (CP threatened to leave if Doc wasn't recruited), Head of Basketball Operations role (could form any team he wanted without having to go through a GM) and a better roster. When you take into consideration that he is the highest paid coach in the league, the most powerful coach within an organisation and has the deepest bench (arguably), it's easy to see why people are disappointed with his results. Yes we have to take into account growing pains, especially this year with all the new faces, but what does that say about Doc if each year he has to overhaul about 5 players. I don't want Doc to get fired (unless we could get JVG) because there aren't any better coaches out there IMO. I just want Doc to take some accountability and be willing to change as I believe we would go a lot further if he just changed the 'little things'.

[og15]

You are correct that Doc is very deflective of blame, and I think that's just his personality and something we'll have to live with. I like that you mentioned a point I was going to bring up which is that if the team was to fire Doc, the alternatives are not likely to be better. The grass is not greener, and outside of stealing another teams coach, there isn't a better coach just floating around.

Like I said, I don't think he's perfect or beyond criticism, of course none of you think I do, but as fans we can have a tendency to take it too far. It's similar to the Jamal thing. I have felt that Jamal should be moved or given a more limited role, and I'm not a fan of how he contributes in the playoffs, but some people take it too far and make it seem everything that goes wrong on the court is because of him.

I mean people say that Jamal's selfishness and iso loving is rubbing off on other guys like Austin, but come on, Austin was very capable of being that kind of player without any help from anyone else.

I think Doc's success with this team was hampered by the fact that he was also in charge of player operations. He inherited a 55+ win level team that needed little tweaks here and there to get them over the top, and because of the level of opposition and the cap situation and the importance of every little move, wasting roster spots, even minimum contract spots on guys like Mullens, Jamison, Farmar (because of the whole role confusion) who you have to waive or move and not understanding the cap and therefore having to do things like trade Dudley and a pick, those end up costing you more than if you were for example a 41 win team.

There is too much urgency to make so many little mistakes, because they add up. Things like Dudley getting injured, that's not something you can control, that's perfectly fine. Something like Hawes sucking is borderline because I was still puzzled about the whole expecting him to run the defense. Things like Farmar being told he was being signed for a role that wasn't possible, something I mentioned that off-season when Doc said he would use Farmar in lineups with CP and like Collison, and I posted on here that unless you're expecting Redick to miss 50 games again, Farmar is not going to get more than 12-14 mpg backing up PG. That you can't do, you have to bring players in with a clear understanding of their role. Now that doesn't mean it can't change if they suck, but a guy can't come in thinking he's going to be playing 20+ mpg when that's not realistic based on the roster. Things like not knowing how the salary cap works and not planning your off-season acquisitions with the understanding of your limitations, then forcing yourself into a situation where you have to make a salary dump move. You really can't have things like that, it really is incompetence.

One of those errors, sure, but you add them all up together over two seasons, and that's a lot of missed oppurtunity to give your team even just one, two, three more productive rotation players which could be the difference between losing a series and winning a series. The margin of error is pretty small when you're going against equally or even arguably more overall talented teams. A players production in just 6-12 minutes, even in the 2nd and 3rd quarter can help determine who finally wins the game.