Knicks-Cavs Official PG Thread

[Clyde_Style]

Just playing dev advocate, why can't we afford it? Is this team in title contention?

Because I want to build a championship team and you can't to afford to bring along a guy so he can achieve mediocrity and be the weakest link.

The quality of the coach should be above the level of your talent until the talent rises to above average as a whole.

The coach should have prior experience in developing players, not be learning on the job how to develop players.

Because we shouldn't have to be outcoached every night while waiting for some mythical day to arrive when Fisher will outcoach others.

Because we could make the playoffs and with Fisher we will not.

Playoff experience is necessary to build a championship ready roster because it is typically necessary to lose in the playoffs before you can win it all in the playoffs.

Because we need to achieve the best this roster can achieve so we can make a strong case in free agency.

Because you don't do everything you can to upgrade the roster and let it be managed by a grade Z coach.

GS just won a title with a guy who was considered a suspect GM and had no coaching experience.

You have got to be kidding me

[Clyde_Style]

Compared to other coaches the situation or rather the hire is abnormal yes but for this specific instance in this specific situation , the performance, it certainly is not.

To determine if it was dumb I'd need to know the reasoning behind the decision; if it was to compete for a championship year one or even year two, than yes it was. Kerr was in the FO and an analyst for years, Hoiberg was a HC, Budenholzer Assc HC etc.

What is the cost of his learning curve, on the larger scale, what do we lose by having him learn on the job and make unavoidable (in large part) completely rookie mistakes. There is one person in particular who I would see having huge issue, potentially but as a fan base, we don't honestly believe that he's going to cost a a championship this year or even next do we?

Foresight, hindsight, whatever. The learning curve should be evident and it is not. We can excuse Fisher and say his worst coaching record in Knicks history was because we had the worst roster in Knicks history, but that was only the case AFTER we decided to tear it down and start over. When we began last season, Phil was saying we were a playoff team. It shows how little he understood how ill-equipped Fisher was for the job.

Last season was maybe a blessing in disguise since it compelled Phil to pull the plug on most of the roster and to start over and we got KP. But if you believe Fisher had nothing to do with a 17 win season and even a great coach would have had the same record, then I'll have to disagree.

What more do you need to see? Well, some want to support Phil so by extension the great Zen Master knows better than us and Fisher will turn out really well which is not how I see it. I think Phil screwed up. I don't need to qualify this any further. The proof is out on the court after 100 pre and regular season games.

It's hard to make an accurate determination as to whether or not he's learning because the roster has had so much turnover IMO. Different players require different circumstances to succeed. Of those who came back, Early was hurt most of the season, Melo was too, as was Calderon, Aldmunson was for stretches as well iirc. He had Gallo for a significant portion of his rookie year tho.

Fisher isn't just figuring out how to coach, he's learning a new cadre' of players many of whom have limited experience in significant roles, and even fewer with those roles on actual championship caliber teams. O'quinn was an 8th man at best and his teams sucked, Derek Williams wasn't even that and his teams sucked etc. It's hard to teach while you're learning at the same time. You don't have years of knowledge to lean on and command from the sidelines with.

I agree with your interpretation that Phil was surprised about where Fish was in his development. A great coach like Larry Brown or George Karl would have steered us into the rocks purposefully to force Phil's hand or like Pop, Doc, Carlisle, never have come at all. Fish most def had a lot to do with it. It was a sinking ship anyway though.

I dont know how this will turn out; my argument is exactly the opposite of what you're saying in that regard. I don't have enough to judge him on yet. I do think that Phil knows more than us, he's old. And he's got lots of expensive jewelry, definitely more successful than I am. You never had to qualify anything in the first place, I appreciate yo taking some time out to explain why you feel the way you do.

Sure, no problem.

[MaseInYourFace]

KP doesn't like shooting.

What? I don't know what you're trying to say. He doesn't like to shoot? Sarcasm?

He is passive. He hardly looks at the damn basket. He's passing the ball way too much. I'm being serious. He will catch the ball and won't even look to score. He'll simply pass. He is not aggressive enough.

Honestly the killer is in him. I can see it but id rather he be high iq and a little unselfish at this point than a chucker

[MaseInYourFace]

And it is nice not to hold one's breathe on each grounder to short. AG's presence also seems to have relaxed EE. I think with decent health this season, the Reds will be a major force. Depth has me concerned, as we know one or two of the starting outfielders are sure bets to get injured for extended time.

Not at all. Ultimately my point is that it's more about the players. Knicks ain't there yet bruh

[nykfan42]

KP doesn't like shooting.

What? I don't know what you're trying to say. He doesn't like to shoot? Sarcasm?

He is passive. He hardly looks at the damn basket. He's passing the ball way too much. I'm being serious. He will catch the ball and won't even look to score. He'll simply pass. He is not aggressive enough.

I disagree. He's 20 years old. He is aggressive. I've seen him pass up a few shots but he was getting the ball at the 3 point line where he isn't confident with that shot yet. I don't wanna see him chucking shots from 3 like JR Smith did/does.

[IAmTheBest]

porzingis is a bit hesitant and passive. this is expected from a rookie, particularly one who is trying to play a smart brand of basketball alongside a veteran like melo in a complicated offense.

his decision making will definitely improve over the course of time, especially when he becomes "the man" (hopefully) down the road

[JBreezeNY]

The Knicks are a playoff caliber team in the East. There is no reason we shouldve lost to the bucks and hornets, at the very least. I'll take the 2 cavs games and the spurs game as Ls, even though we were in great position to win both. The roster is talented and the team is completely different from last year's

Regarding fisher - the problem is that he is atrocious when it comes to coaching, particularly in the 4th quarter. There is no reason he should be rolling out certain lineups he does to close games out. His actions even show his incompetence when he sometimes pulls guys with like 3 or so minutes left after realizing his follies.

he's coaching terribly right now. I'm not going to say that he should be fired, because technically he can still fix his ways. But it has to happen fast or it would cost us the playoff berth we have the talent to secure.

Knicks missing the playoffs after what happened last season would be dangerous. The fans are impatient. The media is relentless. Dolan is unstable and who knows what he'd do after another season of not meeting expectations.

No they are not. Saying so doesn't make it so. Fans need to humble themselves.

If you dont think a team with a best starting lineup of Lopez/Porzingis/Melo/Afflalo/Galloway isnt playoff calibre in the east, then i dont know what to tell you.

the team is a couple of chokes away from being 5-5 or better, with a win against a team that went to the finals last season.

maybe i should have used playoff roster instead of playoff team, because unfortunately fisher is part of the team and he sucks and is costing us games

Robin Lopez is our starting center when in reality he is a backup, his offensive game is also very.....shaky.
Porzingis is a rookie, picks up a lot of foolish fouls, his stamina is still building, his shot struggles & he is not aggressive.
Melo is Melo for better or worse.
Arron is our 2nd scorer when he is really a 4th/5th scorer, not to mention his defense has fallen.
Galloway is good.

That's not a playoff calibre team especially when the bench is so erratic.

[Greenie]

The Knicks are a playoff caliber team in the East. There is no reason we shouldve lost to the bucks and hornets, at the very least. I'll take the 2 cavs games and the spurs game as Ls, even though we were in great position to win both. The roster is talented and the team is completely different from last year's

Regarding fisher - the problem is that he is atrocious when it comes to coaching, particularly in the 4th quarter. There is no reason he should be rolling out certain lineups he does to close games out. His actions even show his incompetence when he sometimes pulls guys with like 3 or so minutes left after realizing his follies.

he's coaching terribly right now. I'm not going to say that he should be fired, because technically he can still fix his ways. But it has to happen fast or it would cost us the playoff berth we have the talent to secure.

Knicks missing the playoffs after what happened last season would be dangerous. The fans are impatient. The media is relentless. Dolan is unstable and who knows what he'd do after another season of not meeting expectations.

No they are not. Saying so doesn't make it so. Fans need to humble themselves.

If you dont think a team with a best starting lineup of Lopez/Porzingis/Melo/Afflalo/Galloway isnt playoff calibre in the east, then i dont know what to tell you.

the team is a couple of chokes away from being 5-5 or better, with a win against a team that went to the finals last season.

maybe i should have used playoff roster instead of playoff team, because unfortunately fisher is part of the team and he sucks and is costing us games

Best starting lineup?
Lets live in reality. This is your starting lineup[I'm gonna give you CAREER (pts, rebs,ast,stl and blk)]:

Robin Lopez- 8.2, 5.1, 0.5, 0.3 and 1.2
Kristaps Porzingis- 11.5, 8.8, 0.7, 0.9 and 1.1
Carmelo Anthony- 25.2, 6.6, 3.1, 1.1 and 0.5
Arron Afflalo- 11.4, 3.0, 2.0, 0.5 and 0.2
Jose Calderon- 10.1, 2.2, 6.6, 0.9 and 0.1


Look at that again, comprehend that starting lineup and tell me again(with a straight face) that we are a playoff team

[Greenie]

Because I want to build a championship team and you can't to afford to bring along a guy so he can achieve mediocrity and be the weakest link.

The quality of the coach should be above the level of your talent until the talent rises to above average as a whole.

The coach should have prior experience in developing players, not be learning on the job how to develop players.

Because we shouldn't have to be outcoached every night while waiting for some mythical day to arrive when Fisher will outcoach others.

Because we could make the playoffs and with Fisher we will not.

Playoff experience is necessary to build a championship ready roster because it is typically necessary to lose in the playoffs before you can win it all in the playoffs.

Because we need to achieve the best this roster can achieve so we can make a strong case in free agency.

Because you don't do everything you can to upgrade the roster and let it be managed by a grade Z coach.

GS just won a title with a guy who was considered a suspect GM and had no coaching experience.

You have got to be kidding me

He told no lies. Kerr was fired in PHX as a front office guy and last year was in fact his first year in coaching. Players make the coach for the most part.

[god shammgod]

i don't know that we'll make the playoffs. but you don't have to be too good for that last spot.

[Thugger HBC]

The team imo is above schedule as far as records and team play go. The play hard for the majority of the game and have been quite competitive, even able to have decent leads in fourth quarters. In time the following statement wont be of them....

The Knicks are 21st in field-goal percentage (37 percent) in clutch situations. The club also has the fifth-highest turnover ratio in the clutch.

That's not good, but the positive is that they are in those situations to begin with. Once they can figure that out, then things will really fall into place.

[IAmTheBest]

No they are not. Saying so doesn't make it so. Fans need to humble themselves.

If you dont think a team with a best starting lineup of Lopez/Porzingis/Melo/Afflalo/Galloway isnt playoff calibre in the east, then i dont know what to tell you.

the team is a couple of chokes away from being 5-5 or better, with a win against a team that went to the finals last season.

maybe i should have used playoff roster instead of playoff team, because unfortunately fisher is part of the team and he sucks and is costing us games

Robin Lopez is our starting center when in reality he is a backup, his offensive game is also very.....shaky.
Porzingis is a rookie, picks up a lot of foolish fouls, his stamina is still building, his shot struggles & he is not aggressive as a scorer.
Melo is Melo for better or worse.
Arron is our 2nd scorer when he is really a 4th/5th scorer, not to mention his defense has fallen.
Galloway is good.

That's not a playoff calibre team especially when the bench is so erratic.

Robin Lopez was the starting center on a team that won 53 games in a completely stacked western conference. He's still a starter now.

Porzingis is a rookie, but he is quite effective in the minutes he does play. His help defense is excellent and his length is disruptive. He gives us a legit 7 footer twin towers situation in our starting lineup and he can stretch the floor. He has lapses and rookie mistakes sometimes, but luckily we have some depth at the 4

Melo is melo - agreed. but when healthy (he still seems very rusty) he is an efficient 25+ ppg scorer.

Agree with afflalo, but he's still a solid starting shooting guard for eastern conference standards. the position is shallow to begin with

Galloway is good

By playoff caliber I'm not saying we are definitely going to make the playoffs. I'm saying our roster is easily talented enough for it.

Boston is going hard for a playoff spot and their roster sucks compared to ours. the difference is that they have an excellent coach. Our coach is what is costing us big.

You have to see that we have leads on teams like the cavs and spurs for much of the game and then at the end completely collapse. hell, we even collapse in the 4th against garbage teams like the bucks and hornets. It's not like we are outmatched the entire game due to lack of talent and rarely have a lead. this is a clear coaching problem. The talent is there but then you have stupid ass lineups on the floor during which leads evaporate within a matter of minutes. there are stretches when the lineups cannot generate offense and/or get stops. these are lineup problems due to fisher's tactical incompetence

[JBreezeNY]

i don't know that we'll make the playoffs. but you don't have to be too good for that last spot.

This is true & probably the only reason why even in spite of our players, the coaching, the new learning experience we still could possibly get a spot.

I mean listen we're 4-5, the two teams that should make it that we lost to (Bucks & Hornets) are 4-4 & 4-5 respectively.

My issue however is the thinking that we SHOULD & WILL make the playoffs.

Nooooooooooo.

We are not that good, we should be happy for the ride, next season however I think we should expect to make the playoffs.

17 wins to 28-35 wins this season then 40+ the third season is great improvement.

[DaGawd]

We gotta be the only board whose PG threads go into the 20+ rage lol.

Regarding KP.. I think it is worth noting that he's never really dominated at any level. Hopefully he can develop that alpha male lead scoring mentality down the road in his career but this could just be who he is for now

[Thugger HBC]

GS just won a title with a guy who was considered a suspect GM and had no coaching experience.

You have got to be kidding me

He told no lies. Kerr was fired in PHX as a front office guy and last year was in fact his first year in coaching. Players make the coach for the most part.

Kerr wasnt fired. And that year they had just made the WCF. Kerr has done well everywhere he's been.

[DaGawd]

i don't know that we'll make the playoffs. but you don't have to be too good for that last spot.

This is true & probably the only reason why even in spite of our players, the coaching, the new learning experience we still could possibly get a spot.

I mean listen we're 4-5, the two teams that should make it that we lost to (Bucks & Hornets) are 4-4 & 4-5 respectively.

My issue however is the thinking that we SHOULD & WILL make the playoffs.

Nooooooooooo.

We are not that good, we should be happy for the ride, next season however I think we should expect to make the playoffs.

17 wins to 28-35 wins this season then 40+ the third season is great improvement.

we 4-6

[IAmTheBest]

i don't know that we'll make the playoffs. but you don't have to be too good for that last spot.

This is true & probably the only reason why even in spite of our players, the coaching, the new learning experience we still could possibly get a spot.

I mean listen we're 4-5, the two teams that should make it that we lost to (Bucks & Hornets) are 4-4 & 4-5 respectively.

My issue however is the thinking that we SHOULD & WILL make the playoffs.

Nooooooooooo.

We are not that good, we should be happy for the ride, next season however I think we should expect to make the playoffs.

17 wins to 28-35 wins this season then 40+ the third season is great improvement.

The bucks and hornets suck - they are no better than the knicks

and here you are saying that they should make the playoffs

lol

[Thugger HBC]

Speaking of playoffs, I really think this may be the first time in a while that all 8 teams have a .500 or better record. I dont think sliding in with 38 wins is gonna qualify this year.

[dakomish23]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/herringwsj/status/665378093478117378[/tweet]

Can't wait to see how this gets twisted

Once Melo gets the ball, it sticks. That's the offense. What is there to run?

This is a lie. Maybe there are times like that. But that has not been the case this year for overwhelming majority including last night.

[TrueWarrior]

Lance single handedly ruined two great end of game KP highlights, and possible wins, in a row with his sh*t passes.

He'll show up once every 5 games though to continue the madness.