OT: Terrorist attacks in Paris

[League Circles]

Building a wall is so hilarious. The fact that Trump fools people into thinking he could make Mexico pay for it is even more hilarious. Our 600+ miles of fencing cost nearly 2.5 billion in 2009, that doesn't take into account maintenance. The cost of a big wall.....heh. But I'm sure we could just try to bankrupt the USPS with unreasonable pension standards, cut planned parenthood, not fix roads and bridges, increase our already ridiculous military budget, and manage to build that wall while bringing down the deficit. No more big government!!! /right wing green

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

[TheSuzerain]

Am I wrong, or did you just show me a graph that shows that an estimated 6 million illegal immigrants came from Mexico last year, as your attempt to imply that not many illegal immigrants are coming into the US from Mexico? I'm confused.

It's a total. Not per year.

10,000 people were caught at the border in September. Fiscal year 2015 was the second worst on record.

But trends don't matter to me. What matters is security. It's not a secure border or even remotely close to one. It's a numbers game. We need to make it actually nearly impossible to cross IMO.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/21/surge-illegal-children-families-accelerates/?page=all

You talk of security and then post a link about children and families entering the country?

The Mexico-US border is 1933 miles. Only a fool would try to make it nearly impossible to cross.

This is the safest time to be alive in US history. And yet people are freaking out about security.

[MetalFingaz]

For every illegal that enters USA from Mexico yearly, one leaves either voluntarily or through deportation

Impossible to document that. Sure, there are illegals being deported but not nearly at the rate they come in.

Here's the article the initial chart comes from, with an explanation of how people try to document trends in immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/immigration-is-changing-much-more-than-the-immigration-debate/

[TheSuzerain]

Building a wall is so hilarious. The fact that Trump fools people into thinking he could make Mexico pay for it is even more hilarious. Our 600+ miles of fencing cost nearly 2.5 billion in 2009, that doesn't take into account maintenance. The cost of a big wall.....heh. But I'm sure we could just try to bankrupt the USPS with unreasonable pension standards, cut planned parenthood, not fix roads and bridges, increase our already ridiculous military budget, and manage to build that wall while bringing down the deficit. No more big government!!! /right wing green

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

You are safer right now than any other time in US history. Never forget that.

The political rhetoric right now is alarmist and falls apart with even a modicum of analysis.

[League Circles]

It's a total. Not per year.

10,000 people were caught at the border in September. Fiscal year 2015 was the second worst on record.

But trends don't matter to me. What matters is security. It's not a secure border or even remotely close to one. It's a numbers game. We need to make it actually nearly impossible to cross IMO.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/21/surge-illegal-children-families-accelerates/?page=all

You talk of security and then post a link about children and families entering the country?

The Mexico-US border is 1933 miles. Only a fool would try to make it nearly impossible to cross.

This is the safest time to be alive in US history. And yet people are freaking out about security.

If we're plenty safe, which we aren't IMO, then we shouldn't worry about threats like ISIS.

If we can't afford a wall, we should just take some of the 38000 troops we have in Germany, or some of the 49000 in Japan, and station them every 1/8 mile along the border. But no, we can't get by in Germany with only 20,000 troops, can we?

[AKfanatic]

Building a wall is so hilarious. The fact that Trump fools people into thinking he could make Mexico pay for it is even more hilarious. Our 600+ miles of fencing cost nearly 2.5 billion in 2009, that doesn't take into account maintenance. The cost of a big wall.....heh. But I'm sure we could just try to bankrupt the USPS with unreasonable pension standards, cut planned parenthood, not fix roads and bridges, increase our already ridiculous military budget, and manage to build that wall while bringing down the deficit. No more big government!!! /right wing green

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

And how much do you honestly believe a 600+ mile 12 ft tall, X ft deep, Z ft wide wall would actually cost? More than a few billion. How much to maintain? How many electronic sensors will be involved? How many border guards will be required and what will the response time be? Or will we just go east Germany and be sure to have towers to shoot any and all that attempt to come over or under the wall?

Until those that hire illegals are truly punished, you won't stop the flow of illegals coming to try to support their families. If you do build that wall and stop all that cheap labor from coming in, those that hire said cheap labor will go where the labor is.

[League Circles]

You are safer right now than any other time in US history. Never forget that.

The political rhetoric right now is alarmist and falls apart with even a modicum of analysis.

There are a lot of ways to measure that, and some of them aren't meaningful. I'm not sure which measures you are referring to. I'm sure that there are some that indicate that, absolutely.

But there is nothing acceptable about the level of safety and security in this country. If you don't believe me, go to Chiraq, go to the Boston Marathon, go to the US-Mexico border, etc etc etc.

To me, it's pure luck, and/or, gulp, restraint on the part of our enemies that has resulted in us not getting attacked more y terrorists domestically. Or maybe they are building up to something super big. Maybe we'll see a day next year where 10 US cities are attacked, each with 200 dead, simultaneously, by ISIS fighters that entered through the imaginary mexican border.

[johnnyvann840]

For every illegal that enters USA from Mexico yearly, one leaves either voluntarily or through deportation

Impossible to document that. Sure, there are illegals being deported but not nearly at the rate they come in.

Here's the article the initial chart comes from, with an explanation of how people try to document trends in immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/immigration-is-changing-much-more-than-the-immigration-debate/

The article makes some good points about the drop off in ILLEGAL immigration when the recession hit and construction jobs dried up..... but the article is a mess.. all over the place. They go from talking about illegals and then start comparing numbers of LEGAL immigration and talking LEGAL immigrants from India and Asia outnumbering LEGAL Latin American Immigrants.. two entirely different things. And much of the data is guesswork. they admit as much when talking about illegals. "the best available information shows".... well, yeah... with illegal immigration there isn't a lot of available information. We only know they're here when they start tapping resources, or committing crimes. Others getting paid under the table or using fake ID's to work are everywhere and are extremely hard to get a handle on what these numbers really are. They also say that there is a recent surge in illegal immigration from Mexico again because the economy is doing better.

[League Circles]

We shouldn't really even be speaking on the internal affairs of other nations. We shouldn't try to pick who to support. Just let it happen.

We don't even have to pick in order to be in the middle. Merely doing trade, or having diplomatic relations with a country like Saudi Arabia or Iraq, puts us on the wrong side with terrorists. So just because murderous fanatics think they should be running a country (or 'territory they see as part of the caliphate') instead, we should kow to that and cut of all relations with these places like they are Cuba or something?

I don't think private US companies and citizens buying stuff from private companies in places like Saudi or Iraq will necessarily inspire attacks from ISIS.

I'm not saying they wouldn't list it as a grievance now, just saying that if it were their only perceived legit grievance, they may lose a lot of passion and numbers. At that point it would be "white people problems" for them.

[TheSuzerain]

You are safer right now than any other time in US history. Never forget that.

The political rhetoric right now is alarmist and falls apart with even a modicum of analysis.

There are a lot of ways to measure that, and some of them aren't meaningful. I'm not sure which measures you are referring to. I'm sure that there are some that indicate that, absolutely.

But there is nothing acceptable about the level of safety and security in this country. If you don't believe me, go to Chiraq, go to the Boston Marathon, go to the US-Mexico border, etc etc etc.

To me, it's pure luck, and/or, gulp, restraint on the part of our enemies that has resulted in us not getting attacked more y terrorists domestically. Or maybe they are building up to something super big. Maybe we'll see a day next year where 10 US cities are attacked, each with 200 dead, simultaneously, by ISIS fighters that entered through the imaginary mexican border.

Violent crime is at its lowest per capita in US history.

We are the only super power in the world.

Stopping terrorist attacks is difficult, but we've seemingly gotten very good at it post 9/11.

Yet, I read your posts and clearly see fear. That's what the Terrorists want. Republican discourse isn't helping either. They are trying to manipulate you too.

[MetalFingaz]

Impossible to document that. Sure, there are illegals being deported but not nearly at the rate they come in.

Here's the article the initial chart comes from, with an explanation of how people try to document trends in immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/immigration-is-changing-much-more-than-the-immigration-debate/

The article makes some good points about the drop off in ILLEGAL immigration when the recession hit and construction jobs dried up..... but the article is a mess.. all over the place. They go from talking about illegals and then start comparing numbers of LEGAL immigration and talking LEGAL immigrants from India and Asia outnumbering LEGAL Latin American Immigrants.. two entirely different things. And much of the data is guesswork. they admit as much when talking about illegals. "the best available information shows".... well, yeah... with illegal immigration there isn't a lot of available information. We only know they're here when they start tapping resources, or committing crimes. Others getting paid under the table or using fake ID's to work are everywhere and are extremely hard to get a handle on what these numbers really are. They also say that there is a recent surge in illegal immigration from Mexico again because the economy is doing better.

Here's a bit more about the methodology of estimating unauthorized immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-do-we-know-how-many-undocumented-immigrants-there-are/

[League Circles]

Building a wall is so hilarious. The fact that Trump fools people into thinking he could make Mexico pay for it is even more hilarious. Our 600+ miles of fencing cost nearly 2.5 billion in 2009, that doesn't take into account maintenance. The cost of a big wall.....heh. But I'm sure we could just try to bankrupt the USPS with unreasonable pension standards, cut planned parenthood, not fix roads and bridges, increase our already ridiculous military budget, and manage to build that wall while bringing down the deficit. No more big government!!! /right wing green

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

And how much do you honestly believe a 600+ mile 12 ft tall, X ft deep, Z ft wide wall would actually cost? More than a few billion. How much to maintain? How many electronic sensors will be involved? How many border guards will be required and what will the response time be? Or will we just go east Germany and be sure to have towers to shoot any and all that attempt to come over or under the wall?

Until those that hire illegals are truly punished, you won't stop the flow of illegals coming to try to support their families. If you do build that wall and stop all that cheap labor from coming in, those that hire said cheap labor will go where the labor is.

Why would it only be 12 feet high? I think a lot higher than that makes most sense.

If you left 20000 us troopsin **** Germany, you could have an armed US military soldier every 1/8 of a mile along the border. And yeah of course they should shoot people trying to scale over the wall.

Yes it would be expensive but to me it would be among the most sensible and least egregious things these two moron political parties spend on.

[MetalFingaz]

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

And how much do you honestly believe a 600+ mile 12 ft tall, X ft deep, Z ft wide wall would actually cost? More than a few billion. How much to maintain? How many electronic sensors will be involved? How many border guards will be required and what will the response time be? Or will we just go east Germany and be sure to have towers to shoot any and all that attempt to come over or under the wall?

Until those that hire illegals are truly punished, you won't stop the flow of illegals coming to try to support their families. If you do build that wall and stop all that cheap labor from coming in, those that hire said cheap labor will go where the labor is.

And yeah of course they should shoot people trying to scale over the wall.

Even children?

[johnnyvann840]

Here's the article the initial chart comes from, with an explanation of how people try to document trends in immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/immigration-is-changing-much-more-than-the-immigration-debate/

The article makes some good points about the drop off in ILLEGAL immigration when the recession hit and construction jobs dried up..... but the article is a mess.. all over the place. They go from talking about illegals and then start comparing numbers of LEGAL immigration and talking LEGAL immigrants from India and Asia outnumbering LEGAL Latin American Immigrants.. two entirely different things. And much of the data is guesswork. they admit as much when talking about illegals. "the best available information shows".... well, yeah... with illegal immigration there isn't a lot of available information. We only know they're here when they start tapping resources, or committing crimes. Others getting paid under the table or using fake ID's to work are everywhere and are extremely hard to get a handle on what these numbers really are. They also say that there is a recent surge in illegal immigration from Mexico again because the economy is doing better.

Here's a bit more about the methodology of estimating unauthorized immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-do-we-know-how-many-undocumented-immigrants-there-are/

Thanks for that... They are essentially echoing everything I just said.

[League Circles]

You are safer right now than any other time in US history. Never forget that.

The political rhetoric right now is alarmist and falls apart with even a modicum of analysis.

There are a lot of ways to measure that, and some of them aren't meaningful. I'm not sure which measures you are referring to. I'm sure that there are some that indicate that, absolutely.

But there is nothing acceptable about the level of safety and security in this country. If you don't believe me, go to Chiraq, go to the Boston Marathon, go to the US-Mexico border, etc etc etc.

To me, it's pure luck, and/or, gulp, restraint on the part of our enemies that has resulted in us not getting attacked more y terrorists domestically. Or maybe they are building up to something super big. Maybe we'll see a day next year where 10 US cities are attacked, each with 200 dead, simultaneously, by ISIS fighters that entered through the imaginary mexican border.

Violent crime is at its lowest per capita in US history.

We are the only super power in the world.

Stopping terrorist attacks is difficult, but we've seemingly gotten very good at it post 9/11.

Yet, I read your posts and clearly see fear. That's what the Terrorists want. Republican discourse isn't helping either. They are trying to manipulate you too.

You mistake my sensibility for fear. I'm not afraid to die, that's why I'm not afraid of letting ISIS do what they're gonna do in the ME. I'm also not afraid of getting my car broken into or getting in a car crash, but I've worn a seatbelt and locked my car door every time for as long as I can remember because it doesn't make sense not to. And to me, in this day and age, it doesn't make sense to not lock the door with Mexico.

I also think it would be part of an overall strategy to uplift the American poor as well.

Have we gotten very good at stopping terrorist attacks? Do you have it on good knowledge that there aren't say 400 ISIS troops here right now just waiting for the green light once everything is in place?

[TheSuzerain]

There are a lot of ways to measure that, and some of them aren't meaningful. I'm not sure which measures you are referring to. I'm sure that there are some that indicate that, absolutely.

But there is nothing acceptable about the level of safety and security in this country. If you don't believe me, go to Chiraq, go to the Boston Marathon, go to the US-Mexico border, etc etc etc.

To me, it's pure luck, and/or, gulp, restraint on the part of our enemies that has resulted in us not getting attacked more y terrorists domestically. Or maybe they are building up to something super big. Maybe we'll see a day next year where 10 US cities are attacked, each with 200 dead, simultaneously, by ISIS fighters that entered through the imaginary mexican border.

Violent crime is at its lowest per capita in US history.

We are the only super power in the world.

Stopping terrorist attacks is difficult, but we've seemingly gotten very good at it post 9/11.

Yet, I read your posts and clearly see fear. That's what the Terrorists want. Republican discourse isn't helping either. They are trying to manipulate you too.

You mistake my sensibility for fear. I'm not afraid to die, that's why I'm not afraid of letting ISIS do what they're gonna do in the ME. I'm also not afraid of getting my car broken into or getting in a car crash, but I've worn a seatbelt and locked my car door every time for as long as I can remember because it doesn't make sense not to. And to me, in this day and age, it doesn't make sense to not lock the door with Mexico.

I also think it would be part of an overall strategy to uplift the American poor as well.

Have we gotten very good at stopping terrorist attacks? Do you have it on good knowledge that there aren't say 400 ISIS troops here right now just waiting for the green light once everything is in place?

No I'm not mistaking your sensibility for fear. Sensible implies you are being reasonable.

Instead, it seems like you are freaking out over anecdotal evidence. Oh and movies you watched where terrorists came over the border. Yeah, real sensible.

ISIS will probably attack us at some point. That doesn't mean you lose your mind.

[League Circles]

And how much do you honestly believe a 600+ mile 12 ft tall, X ft deep, Z ft wide wall would actually cost? More than a few billion. How much to maintain? How many electronic sensors will be involved? How many border guards will be required and what will the response time be? Or will we just go east Germany and be sure to have towers to shoot any and all that attempt to come over or under the wall?

Until those that hire illegals are truly punished, you won't stop the flow of illegals coming to try to support their families. If you do build that wall and stop all that cheap labor from coming in, those that hire said cheap labor will go where the labor is.

And yeah of course they should shoot people trying to scale over the wall.

Even children?

That's an interesting hypothetical. I'm imagining a 30 foot tall, slick on one side wall with heavily armed troops every 650 feet or so on top of it. It's hard for me to imagine kids scaling that wall trying to get in under the circumstances, for the same reason that people don't often try to scale US prison walls. Maybe they wouldn't have to shoot people. Maybe just press the "oil" button to make the 30 foot surface they're scaling under machine gun fire even more slick so they fall down.

There are 6800 banks in the US. We keep them pretty secure. We should b able to secure 2000 miles of dessert border IMO.

[TheSuzerain]

The article makes some good points about the drop off in ILLEGAL immigration when the recession hit and construction jobs dried up..... but the article is a mess.. all over the place. They go from talking about illegals and then start comparing numbers of LEGAL immigration and talking LEGAL immigrants from India and Asia outnumbering LEGAL Latin American Immigrants.. two entirely different things. And much of the data is guesswork. they admit as much when talking about illegals. "the best available information shows".... well, yeah... with illegal immigration there isn't a lot of available information. We only know they're here when they start tapping resources, or committing crimes. Others getting paid under the table or using fake ID's to work are everywhere and are extremely hard to get a handle on what these numbers really are. They also say that there is a recent surge in illegal immigration from Mexico again because the economy is doing better.

Here's a bit more about the methodology of estimating unauthorized immigration: https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-do-we-know-how-many-undocumented-immigrants-there-are/

Thanks for that... They are essentially echoing everything I just said.

Of course it's difficult to count illegal immigrants. But their methods are sound and they purposely over-estimate.

None of what you brought up would change the trends that have appeared in that Mexican illegal immigration has mostly been on decline since 2008. The net change in illegal immigrants from Mexico each year has hovered around 0 for the last 5 years now.

Let's stop talking about Illegal Immigration though. This is out of place with the Thread.

[AKfanatic]

I don't see why building a wall is hilarious. It's one of the only common sense, obvious things we should do IMO that anyone should agree with. A few billion dollars is chump change compared to what we spend on countless other nonsense.

I totally agree that the idea that any of these politicians will bring down the deficit and debt is silly, but that doesn't make building an effective wall a bad idea in a vacuum.

Bottom line, staying safe is going to be hard enough WITH a wall. Without one, damn near impossible. Then to me there is another separate huge issue that having a society with classes (legal classes of legals vs illegals) is incredibly bad for everyone. Any society should only have one legal class of people.

And how much do you honestly believe a 600+ mile 12 ft tall, X ft deep, Z ft wide wall would actually cost? More than a few billion. How much to maintain? How many electronic sensors will be involved? How many border guards will be required and what will the response time be? Or will we just go east Germany and be sure to have towers to shoot any and all that attempt to come over or under the wall?

Until those that hire illegals are truly punished, you won't stop the flow of illegals coming to try to support their families. If you do build that wall and stop all that cheap labor from coming in, those that hire said cheap labor will go where the labor is.

Why would it only be 12 feet high? I think a lot higher than that makes most sense.

If you left 20000 us troopsin **** Germany, you could have an armed US military soldier every 1/8 of a mile along the border. And yeah of course they should shoot people trying to scale over the wall.

Yes it would be expensive but to me it would be among the most sensible and least egregious things these two moron political parties spend on.

So full on military state. Awesome.

It's always odd to me that every crime committed by an illegal is met with the same folks screaming about the need for change to keep us safe, but crimes of a violent nature are always met with a "it's not the time for talk of political change" "they're just politicizing a trajedy". The biggest danger to Americans comes by the hands of other Americans...no wall will change that.

Edit: a 30 ft wall? A 3 ft fence cost 2.5 billion, I'm sure the conservatives that want that wall have no problem with the tax increase that would come to cover said 30 ft, oil slicked, machine gun mounted, soldier every 1/8 mile (not to mention the support structures to take care of soldiers) wall. While we're at it, why not sharks with laser beams?

[TheSuzerain]

And yeah of course they should shoot people trying to scale over the wall.

Even children?

That's an interesting hypothetical. I'm imagining a 30 foot tall, slick on one side wall with heavily armed troops every 650 feet or so on top of it. It's hard for me to imagine kids scaling that wall trying to get in under the circumstances, for the same reason that people don't often try to scale US prison walls. Maybe they wouldn't have to shoot people. Maybe just press the "oil" button to make the 30 foot surface they're scaling under machine gun fire even more slick so they fall down.

There are 6800 banks in the US. We keep them pretty secure. We should b able to secure 2000 miles of dessert border IMO.

This is one of the most ridiculous exchanges I've ever read on this forum.

And I just read a thread where people have still tried to argue that Rose > Butler.