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Leap Year - The Kemba Walker Thread III

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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#881 » by LamarMatic7 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:59 pm

BigSlam wrote:Pretty interesting to think that Kamba and Lin have so many similarities (statistically) yet one is getting paid $2mil a year and the other $12mil a year.

So in the interest of equality, should Lin be getting $12mil..........or Kemba $2mil?

Perhaps they should both be earning more around $4-$6mil each?

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Kemba's contract benefited from the fact that he's the hard-working, our own drafted leader of the locker room who has a winner's mentality and who we should keep around to continue this progression of a young and feisty team.

When once upon a time Jeremy Lin had his own suitable situation (fresh off Linsanity), he also signed a very nice deal of 3/25. Morey went out his way to invent a loop hole (the "poison pill" contract) concerning second round picks on unrestricted rookie contracts to get Lin (and Asik) and screw over New York in a manner that they are in a hard place to match it.

I think that both of them have benefited from situations that might have not had so much to do with the overall level of play they showcase as players.

I'd say that Kemba's next deal will also be a much lesser percentage of the cap space than the current one he is on.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#882 » by LamarMatic7 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:12 pm

Not to say that I oppose your train of thought or anything since quoting someone on a board like this might make it seem so. Just more of a way for me to continue the discussion you started.

How about this question. if you were Donnie Nelson or Mark Cuban, would you rather have Deron Williams on the two-year deal he is on (2/11) or sign Jeremy Lin for, let's say, 8/2, just in case he really, really wanted to be here and was willing to take a discount?

I think I'd take Jeremy. And, honestly, I think he could/should take Dallas in such a scenario as well.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#883 » by Mystical Apples » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:22 pm

I think Lin probably made the right decision to sign with Charlotte given he signed what is essentially a 1 year deal hoping to get a bigger contract in 2016. Although the talk of Dallas' demise was premature, it was inevitable they were going to take a step back and I doubt Lin wanted to be associated with that. Also if I'm not mistaken, Lin chose Charlotte while the Deandre storm was unfolding so it's possible that sealed the deal.

Dallas already had Felton, Harris, and possibly even Barea when Lin was making his decision. Those 3 aren't world beaters but it's possible he wouldn't have started and at the least Harris has some skills Lin doesn't. With a crowded point position and Matthews cemented at shooting guard (a spot Harris can also play) it was not guaranteed Lin would get a lot of minutes.

The public narrative about Lin with Charlotte was portrayed as a third combo guard off the bench but I'm sure Lin saw it as a chance to supplant Kemba as the starter for a much improved team. On paper the worst case scenario for Lin seemed to be backup point guard and plenty of shooting guard on team with better spacing and high pnr usage.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#884 » by amcoolio » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:55 pm

The thing with Kemba is we always had his defense and steals and low turnovers (albiet because he rarely attempts a daring pass which more hurts than helps because he is so predictable) to fall back on when his shot wasn't falling. However his defense and hustle plays have really fallen off this season with the exception of the last two games.

I think Kemba would be awesome off the bench but his ego would never allow that.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#885 » by JDR720 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:05 pm

Kemba's tracking defense #'s

overall defended FG%- 50.9%
less than 6 feet- 80%
less than 10 feet 73%
2 pointers- 60%
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202689/tracking/defense/

for comparison, Jose Calderon who is widely thought of as a horrific defender

overall FG%- 43%
less than 6 feet- 76.5%
less than 10 feet- 72.7%
2 pointers- 43.8%
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101181/tracking/defense/
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#886 » by yosemiteben » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:17 pm

Ouch
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#887 » by amcoolio » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:20 pm

JDR720 wrote:Kemba's tracking defense #'s

overall defended FG%- 50.9%
less than 6 feet- 80%
less than 10 feet 73%
2 pointers- 60%
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202689/tracking/defense/

for comparison, Jose Calderon who is widely thought of as a horrific defender

overall FG%- 43%
less than 6 feet- 76.5%
less than 10 feet- 72.7%
2 pointers- 43.8%
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101181/tracking/defense/


I don't get why he has fallen off that bad. 1-3 in games decided by 3 points or less, and if we switch that to 3-1, we are 7-3 right now and looking good though a tough stretch.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#888 » by JDR720 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:46 pm

we haven't even faced a great PG yet.

Dragic
Teague X2
Rose X2
whoever Dallas started at PG (D-Williams?)
Tony Parker
LaVine (Rubio was out)
whoever the Knicks start at PG
Lillard

3 solid/fringe all-star guys and bums. just wait until Cp3,Curry,Wall etc. play us.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#889 » by Liver_Pooty » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:22 pm

Those numbers are absolutely atroscious. Beginning to worry more about his defense than offense as if that was possible
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#890 » by HornetJail » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:33 pm

Sample size is quite small, and if Kemba is the one defending a shot within 6 feet of the rim, our bigs aren't getting it done. If we had a defensive big worth a ****, Kemba wouldn't need to defend shots at the rim. Conversely, his defense should keep players from getting to the rim, which to an extent, is happening.

The inside 10ft numbers are terrible regardless, but that's only 3.7 shots a game for the 10+ shots he defends per game.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#891 » by ChokeFasncists » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:00 pm

Braggins wrote:
ChokeFasncists wrote:
amcoolio wrote:Brandon Jennings was really good last season before he got injured. He was putting up 15 point/10 assist games on the regular. Kemba will sadly never come close to Jennings passing ability unfortunately. How many 10+ assist games does Kemba have in his career, like 5? Then you got rookies like Marcus Smart and Mudiay coming in and immediately firing off 10+ assist games and getting their teammates involved. Disheartening.

Lin and Kemba are similar players. We need a distributor. Maybe Rondo can be had.

We need a Willie Cauley Stein or Myles Turner-type player at C to open up our offense and catch lobs from our point guard.

They aren't that similar IMO. With the right personnel/scheme, Lin can dish out 10 assists on any given night. A center to PnR and throw lobs to would be nice, good shooters/slashers and fastbreakers.

We've always had super shoddy PnR bigs here. Last year our frontcourt was Al and a sh*tty version of Marv, the year before it was Al and McBob (aka the best PnR big Kemba has played with...), and the year before that it was Byron Mullens and rookie Bismack Biyombo. This is also the first year we've had any kind of shooting since Kemba has been here. Its never exactly been a PG friendly environment. Lin is shooting less than 2% better than Kemba from the floor and about 1% better from deep. Lin plays with better shooters and PnR options than Kemba does in our rotation and plays most of his minutes against backups and, not counting the Portland game, his per36 assists are only .2 higher, while Kemba has a 5.3% advantage in ast%, averages 1.8 assists per 100 possessions, and has a much higher ast/to ratio. Those numbers aren't counting the Portland game, but that doesn't have much effect.

I thought Kemba played the way we need him to against Portland tonight. 5/12 - 2/5 shooting, 5 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steel, 2 turnovers. He honestly had an off shooting night but still shot over 40%. His off shooting nights when he spazzes out end up being like 5/16. Lin is spazzy in his own way, but he gets out of control and racks up TO's instead of missed field goals. If we can get a non-spaz version of one of them every night then our PG situation is fine imo. I honestly expect both of them to get more consistent as the team starts to gel more and hopefully Lin gets some more minutes.

Come on, didn't have this discussion already? Al is infinitely better for assists than Hawes. Cody has been seriously struggling until the Knicks/Wolves games and got injured after that. Then came Frank who keeps faking the three or miss most of his shots, he's not ready yet. As well as Lamb has played, Batum plays much better, even as a spot up shooter. It's real frustrating that the main PnR big is Hawes. Lin passes him the ball and he fakes the three.

Lin has to not get out of control, that's for sure his biggest weakness; one big reason for his low assists numbers, he's trying to find the balance between threading the needle and turning the ball over. Kemba tho, makes too predictable passes, that's also his weakness, to the other extreme. That's where they're most different. Lin prefers to pass most of the times, he likes to draw defenders, whereas Kemba likes to take tough shots, he's closer to a SG in a PG body with an elite handle. Lin loves throwing lobs/touchdown passes, whereas Kemba rarely does.

Mentally, Kemba is too steady in terms of passing while Lin is bipolar, either making spectacular passes or being unsure of what to do next. Lin is still seriously trying to figure out his way tho. We don't know what the outcome's gonna be. Walker has been like this ever since, he might, but no one is banking on it that he'll change drastically.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#892 » by steady » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:33 pm

Mystical Apples wrote:I think Lin probably made the right decision to sign with Charlotte given he signed what is essentially a 1 year deal hoping to get a bigger contract in 2016. Although the talk of Dallas' demise was premature, it was inevitable they were going to take a step back and I doubt Lin wanted to be associated with that. Also if I'm not mistaken, Lin chose Charlotte while the Deandre storm was unfolding so it's possible that sealed the deal.

Dallas already had Felton, Harris, and possibly even Barea when Lin was making his decision. Those 3 aren't world beaters but it's possible he wouldn't have started and at the least Harris has some skills Lin doesn't. With a crowded point position and Matthews cemented at shooting guard (a spot Harris can also play) it was not guaranteed Lin would get a lot of minutes.

The public narrative about Lin with Charlotte was portrayed as a third combo guard off the bench but I'm sure Lin saw it as a chance to supplant Kemba as the starter for a much improved team. On paper the worst case scenario for Lin seemed to be backup point guard and plenty of shooting guard on team with better spacing and high pnr usage.


You guys have very accurate information about Lin.

Yes, Dallas had Barea when Lin was making his decision. When Dallas thought they got DeAndre Jordan, they were exploring sign and trade possibilities with the Lakers for Lin, to get a pnr partner for DeAndre according to Woj. They were hoping to include Felton in the sign and trade. Lakers were dragging their feet; they wanted a huge concession in return for using their Bird rights to allow Dallas to sign Lin for more money. Then DeAndre deal fell apart....

"Wojnarowski says Lin's proficiency in the pick-and-roll has the Mavericks interested now that they have agreed to terms with DeAndre Jordan."

I would not underestimate the importance Lin places on playing in a system, and with teammates, and coaches, that he likes. Lin's not the kind of player to place a huge amount of importance on money, and he has some endorsement deals anyway. But yeah, he probably is expecting his salary to go up.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#893 » by steady » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:01 am

LamarMatic7 wrote:
BigSlam wrote:Pretty interesting to think that Kamba and Lin have so many similarities (statistically) yet one is getting paid $2mil a year and the other $12mil a year.

So in the interest of equality, should Lin be getting $12mil..........or Kemba $2mil?

Perhaps they should both be earning more around $4-$6mil each?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Kemba's contract benefited from the fact that he's the hard-working, our own drafted leader of the locker room who has a winner's mentality and who we should keep around to continue this progression of a young and feisty team.

When once upon a time Jeremy Lin had his own suitable situation (fresh off Linsanity), he also signed a very nice deal of 3/25. Morey went out his way to invent a loop hole (the "poison pill" contract) concerning second round picks on unrestricted rookie contracts to get Lin (and Asik) and screw over New York in a manner that they are in a hard place to match it.

I think that both of them have benefited from situations that might have not had so much to do with the overall level of play they showcase as players.

I'd say that Kemba's next deal will also be a much lesser percentage of the cap space than the current one he is on.


Yep, the poison pill, the reason Knicks did not match Houston's offer.

"Because the Knicks will be over the N.B.A.’s luxury-tax threshold, Lin’s salary would have cost them an additional $35 million or more in penalties paid to the league."

It's amazing to recall now that the Knicks were willing to match the Rockets first offer for
$19.5 million over three years, including a third-year balloon payment of $9.3 million, that would have cost the Knicks 18.75 million in luxury tax penalties
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#894 » by Appwrangler » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:39 am

JDR720 wrote:we haven't even faced a great PG yet.

Dragic
Teague X2
Rose X2
whoever Dallas started at PG (D-Williams?)
Tony Parker
LaVine (Rubio was out)
whoever the Knicks start at PG
Lillard

3 solid/fringe all-star guys and bums. just wait until Cp3,Curry,Wall etc. play us.


Why wait? I'll tell you right now. :)

When we play Curry we lose unless his shot is way off or they have two other starters out. We have a shot against the Clips, though CP3 wins if he has the ref in his pocket and Blake is feeling 100%. Wall I feel best about. Not confident but that should be an exciting game.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#895 » by Roy Tarpley » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:35 am

JDR720 wrote:we haven't even faced a great PG yet.

Dragic
Teague X2
Rose X2
whoever Dallas started at PG (D-Williams?)
Tony Parker
LaVine (Rubio was out)
whoever the Knicks start at PG
Lillard

3 solid/fringe all-star guys and bums. just wait until Cp3,Curry,Wall etc. play us.


Player A (career per 36) 43% FG 30% 3PT 79% FT 4.4 REB 8.7 AST 1.7 STL 0.6 BLK 3.7 TO 17.7 PTS
Player B (career per 36) 44% FG 35% 3PT 80% FT 3.5 REB 6.3 AST 1.7 STL 0.5 BLK 3.3 TO 15.8 PTS

Player A = "Great PG" John Wall
Player B = our backup PG Jeremy Lin

I wouldn't put Wall in the great PG category with Curry and CP3
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#896 » by Roy Tarpley » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:40 am

Also, it's amazing what the environment did for Dragic's stats. He was considered a "max" player when he re-signed with the Heat but with Bosh, Wade, and Deng taking up shots, Dragic is putting up horrible numbers as a starter.

I would consider Teague better than Wall.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#897 » by Liver_Pooty » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:42 am

And I definitely wouldn't put Lin anywhere near Walls level. Don't care what per 36 career numbers state.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#898 » by Braggins » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:01 am

steady wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:I think Lin probably made the right decision to sign with Charlotte given he signed what is essentially a 1 year deal hoping to get a bigger contract in 2016. Although the talk of Dallas' demise was premature, it was inevitable they were going to take a step back and I doubt Lin wanted to be associated with that. Also if I'm not mistaken, Lin chose Charlotte while the Deandre storm was unfolding so it's possible that sealed the deal.

Dallas already had Felton, Harris, and possibly even Barea when Lin was making his decision. Those 3 aren't world beaters but it's possible he wouldn't have started and at the least Harris has some skills Lin doesn't. With a crowded point position and Matthews cemented at shooting guard (a spot Harris can also play) it was not guaranteed Lin would get a lot of minutes.

The public narrative about Lin with Charlotte was portrayed as a third combo guard off the bench but I'm sure Lin saw it as a chance to supplant Kemba as the starter for a much improved team. On paper the worst case scenario for Lin seemed to be backup point guard and plenty of shooting guard on team with better spacing and high pnr usage.


You guys have very accurate information about Lin.

Yes, Dallas had Barea when Lin was making his decision. When Dallas thought they got DeAndre Jordan, they were exploring sign and trade possibilities with the Lakers for Lin, to get a pnr partner for DeAndre according to Woj. They were hoping to include Felton in the sign and trade. Lakers were dragging their feet; they wanted a huge concession in return for using their Bird rights to allow Dallas to sign Lin for more money. Then DeAndre deal fell apart....

"Wojnarowski says Lin's proficiency in the pick-and-roll has the Mavericks interested now that they have agreed to terms with DeAndre Jordan."

I would not underestimate the importance Lin places on playing in a system, and with teammates, and coaches, that he likes. Lin's not the kind of player to place a huge amount of importance on money, and he has some endorsement deals anyway. But yeah, he probably is expecting his salary to go up.

My point was more about highlighting our overall lack of PnR options that has been a thing for a while. It limits both Kemba and Lin's assist numbers imo. Al may be a better roll target than Hawes, but hes still a really bad option. Cody has been struggling but he unfortunately is our best PnR option. I just dont see a lot of difference betwee Kemba and Lin's ability as passers/distributors other than what you pointed out at the end of your post. Lin is still too willing to try to thread the needle and Kemba isnt willing enough. Kembas progression over the last few years has been towards less and less risk. He wont even throw oops at all anymore. Youll probably see a similar kind of progression with Lin while he is here. Hopefully he finds a nice balance instead of taking it too far in the other direction like Kemba. Im hoping that Kemba will start to look to take advantage of more openings as he gets more comfortable with our new offense and his role and he starts to realize he has trustworthy teammates.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#899 » by Roy Tarpley » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:03 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:And I definitely wouldn't put Lin anywhere near Walls level. Don't care what per 36 career numbers state.


That's your opinion based on . . . well, opinion, and maybe the eye test?

Based on empirical evidence, Lin is very close to Wall's level.

My point is that Wall is not a great PG. Wall and Lin are both decent PGs but not in the same category as Curry or CP3. I think Wall, and to a similar extent, Kemba just "seem" like good PGs based on pedigree or name or what have you. But based on stats, there's nothing.
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Re: Is It December Yet? - The Kemba Walker Thread III 

Post#900 » by HornetJail » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:05 am

Wall is a WAY better point guard than Lin or Walker. He orchestrates the offense significantly better
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