Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[ChokeFasncists]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/trailblazers/status/666024680038383617[/tweet]

When the Dame inevitably has to take a break, Lin shut down McCollum, threw their whole team off.

OTOH, wasn't it the same in the Bulls/Wolves/Knicks games as well?

[steady]

I wish Clifford would stop having Lin lead lineups where he is getting too little help. The only time where the Hornets lead decreased while Lin was on the floor last night was first 5 1/4 minutes of 4th quarter. (During the first half the bench pushed the lead from 4 to 21 while Lin was in; and the unit he was on at end of game extended lead as well.)

First 3 1/4 minutes of this stretch
Cody
Hawes
Roberts
(These three with zero made shots last night.)
Williams (3-8)

Last 2 minutes of this 5 1/4 strerch -- Walker and Batum subbed for Roberts and Williams
This is usually a good lineup but from play by play it looked like just nothing was working for anyone
Walker - a turnover, missed shot and foul
Hawes - a turnover
Lin - missed shot

[Roy Tarpley]

I'm at a loss for why Lin has been passive offensively. He's usually in one of the following situations:

1. Playing SG with Kemba or Roberts or even Batum playing the point. In this case, Lin tends to hide in a corner 3 position (either to create space in the middle or set up as a 3pt shooter, but it seems like the ball never gets to him). He becomes a non-factor because Kemba and Batum aren't driving and dishing to him, but instead taking 20ft jumpers. Sometimes, at the end of the shot clock, the ball will make its way to Lin but then he has to throw up a last second heave.

2. Playing PG with Zeller, Hawes, Lamb, Williams. Here, he usually starts at the top and either tries to get a screen from Hawes (which is a terrible option because, after the screen, Hawes is left open but you don't want him to take a 20ft jumper) or he waits until another player gets open, say on a curl. Other than passing to Lamb, Lin has limited options because Hawes is terrible and Zeller can't hit a mid-range shot either. Lin either has to (1) pass to Lamb, which has been working recently because Lamb's shot has been good, (2) pass to Hawes or Zeller, which is a turnover or missed shot waiting to happen, or (3) prod and penetrate to find opportunities. I prefer this last option but again, he doesn't have offensive options to turn to. The opposing team collapses on him but the other players don't move to open spaces.

[cw3k]

1) Can't blame Lin for camping. He is well trained by McHale. But I do hope he watch more video on Parker when Manu was on the floor with him.

2) Hornets has no strong roll guy. The screen from the bigs were very week.

[13th Man]

Seems like he played some good D last night so I may have been overly harsh on him. Let's hope he can get it together on offense with whoever that's on the floor.

[bws94]

Eh, he's been pretty bad lately. I still love him as a backup though.

Not completely bad, but bad stretches. His first stretch last night was fine. That lob was great to Lamb. He was 2-4. He didn't play long enough in the first half. Cliff has to play him more in the first half.

Second half he was all kinds of forcing, taking bad shots, not going with what the defense gives. He needed to go out of the game.

But, he comes in crunch time and excels. He fouls Davis out which was key because Davis is a rim protector and he was scoring down low. He stops his man twice on D, he immediately established defense. And that drive and draw the defense to himself and then the feed to Al was a huge play. So Lin made a big contribution without making a shot and it is that ability in the crunch to come up with these big types of plays that makes him a valuable player. And a lot of times they are defensive, taking charges, getting steals, rebounds and forcinh moving screens.

Lin should be more than a backup. He should of course backup the PG but he also should have an expanded, Ginobili-lite kind of role and close most games. I'm not as concerned as others about minutes, and I think Lin has to give more a consistent effort. I'm tired of looking at him look involved and imposing his will one night followed by a more meek and deferring approach the next night.

You said in another post he's like Kemba but I disagree. Kemba can get to his spots with strong, secure ball handling but it is often to only have a few types of passes to only a few different players or shoot jumpers. Lin probes around and comes up with unexpected passes while drawing defense. His drives don't always have direction nor does his plays, but when they do, they elevate the other players and he gets them easier looks than does Kemba. If you can combine Kemba's ball handling and direction with Lin's court vision and variety of passing, you'd have a close to all-star PG. But neither one of them are great shooters.

[anthoang]

I'm a Lin fan, but I hope Hornets fans realize the new players (Lamb, Lin, Batum) have made the team better.

I see the Hornets as a deep team. There are 9-10 players who could play starter minutes. It's going to be hard to give any one player starter's minutes. This is good for the team if any of the players get injured.

Batum is getting alot of minutes because MKG is out. Lamb is taking away some of Lin's minutes. Lamb is on fire, so he deserves the playing time. Batum is playing more pick-n-rolls because no one else can roll with Lin. There are no finishers who puts fear in the opposing team, thus allowing the defenses to trap Lin. I do wish Lin gets more minutes... I don't know why Hairston gets so many minutes. Lamb should be starting.

I look at LIn's +/- rating to determine his success. In 10 games, he is on the positive side for 6 games. So, essentially, his individual record is 6-4.

But then, who would have predicted the Hornets would be 5-5 to start the season? I believe a 2-8 start was what most people predicted.

[13th Man]

I'm a Lin fan, but I hope Hornets fans realize the new players (Lamb, Lin, Batum) have made the team better.

I see the Hornets as a deep team. There are 9-10 players who could play starter minutes. It's going to be hard to give any one player starter's minutes. This is good for the team if any of the players get injured.

Batum is getting alot of minutes because MKG is out. Lamb is taking away some of Lin's minutes. Lamb is on fire, so he deserves the playing time. Batum is playing more pick-n-rolls because no one else can roll with Lin. There are no finishers who puts fear in the opposing team, thus allowing the defenses to trap Lin. I do wish Lin gets more minutes... I don't know why Hairston gets so many minutes. Lamb should be starting.

I look at LIn's +/- rating to determine his success. In 10 games, he is on the positive side for 6 games. So, essentially, his individual record is 6-4.

But then, who would have predicted the Hornets would be 5-5 to start the season? I believe a 2-8 start was what most people predicted.

Pretty good post. I suspect the only reason Lamb is not starting is to balance out the 2 units as he's clearly the bigger offensive threat than PJ. The only thing I'd disagree on is the 5-5 record which I think is fair considering we had one of the toughest schedules to start off the season. Otherwise, the Hornets are definitely a playoff contending team and should be above .500. We just need a bit more depth in the PF/C position imo, but it's still very early and need to be patient with Kaminsky's development.

[bws94]

I'm a Lin fan, but I hope Hornets fans realize the new players (Lamb, Lin, Batum) have made the team better.

I see the Hornets as a deep team. There are 9-10 players who could play starter minutes. It's going to be hard to give any one player starter's minutes. This is good for the team if any of the players get injured.

Batum is getting alot of minutes because MKG is out. Lamb is taking away some of Lin's minutes. Lamb is on fire, so he deserves the playing time. Batum is playing more pick-n-rolls because no one else can roll with Lin. There are no finishers who puts fear in the opposing team, thus allowing the defenses to trap Lin. I do wish Lin gets more minutes... I don't know why Hairston gets so many minutes. Lamb should be starting.

I look at LIn's +/- rating to determine his success. In 10 games, he is on the positive side for 6 games. So, essentially, his individual record is 6-4.

But then, who would have predicted the Hornets would be 5-5 to start the season? I believe a 2-8 start was what most people predicted.

I definitely don't think Lamb should be starting. I don't know how many minutes Lamb should get, maybe somewhere in the mid 20s. Lin should get somewhat more because he is a big play maker in the crunch and has strong defense when he needs to. But Lamb plays best with Lin and produces more with him and wants to play with him. He's expressed that. Lamb and Lin are a tandem, they are the Jeremys and they are a huge threat coming off the bench especially if both get it going. They open up things for each other. Jeremy Lamb starting means he is a 4th option at best and would be underutilized. I think the starters are doing fine but Cliff tends to play them too long.

[Kojima]

J.lin and lamb should be stay together,when both on floor can have great effort ，when lamb with the start unit last game ，he have no use because the ball movement seldom go to his hand.

[lin is ok]

Very disappointed that lin was unable to carry that 2nd unit without lamb. But maybe thats his limit, no shame in it. Lets not forgot lin lamb in the 1st half blew open the massive lead for the hornets. I actually was disappointed that i turned the nbatv off only find out that lin came back in for lamb , which contributed to the win with his one nice assit with al(who says al cant roll?) and good d on his man.

All is well. I am happy lin is in this team . Lin needs to keep up with his excellent d , hit his open shots, And yes drive and draw fouls. Also feels good that the rockets and lakers are imploding.

[leeramundo]

J.lin and lamb should be stay together,when both on floor can have great effort ，when lamb with the start unit last game ，he have no use because the ball movement seldom go to his hand.

I'm also a fan of the jeremy brothers

[spaceballer]

For example, lets say next year, the Warriors offered Lin a chance to back up Curry and return to the Bay area. Although that would mean Lin only getting 15-20 minutes a game and less money. I bet he would gladly choose that situation over signing with a team like the Nets, where he can start on a terrible team, for more money. Again I am using two extreme examples to make my point.

I'm not sure if he would choose a losing Nets team, since he did say one reason he didn't really consider the 76'ers was that "they always lose" and he's doesn't want to be on a tanking team after the tanking season with Byron Scott. But in today's NYPost article, he's provided some insight on the Golden State Warriors bit.

It was a surprise Lin chose the small-market Hornets after playing in the larger markets in the Bay Area, New York, Houston and Los Angeles (last season with the Lakers). Lin said he had a chance to rejoin his hometown Warriors, but he wanted a bigger role.

“I entertained it,’’ Lin said. “I just felt like they had something great going there, and if I went there, it would be a very limited role. I felt like, ‘I’m 27 now.’ I want to find where I can be as big a part of a successful team as I can.’’
http://nypost.com/2015/11/17/jeremy-lin-finds-a-home-after-carmelo-friction-warriors-flirting/

He turned down an offer from the Warriors this off-season because he felt they had a good thing going there, and he didn't think he'd get a lot of minutes or a big role there. He's entering the athletic prime of his life and he wants to find a home where he can have a big role and be a big part of a team winning, not a limited minutes backup. So he chose Hornets based on his conversations with Cliff that Charlotte would be the place with the most role and minutes (as both PG backing up Kemba, and SG next to Walker, I think a bit like the 30 minutes a game he got as backup PG/SG on the Rockets, perhaps), even though the Hornets started out not even in his top 6 choices.

Obviously things can change and has, and the games need to be played. But he turned down the champion Warriors for the Hornets, who started out not even in his top 6 choices, based on his expectation of role and minutes from his conversations with Cliff prior to signing. Because he didn't want to be a limited minutes/role backup PG when he turned down the Warriors pitch for Cliff's pitch of being both backup PG and SG next to Walker (perhaps kind of like the 30 minutes a game he got as backup PG/SG on the Rockets).

Let's hope the Hornets make the playoffs and he gets to play a significant role in that to justify his choice of Charlotte over his hometown Warriors based on Cliff's pitch. It's a long season, and let's hope Lin can make a difference and help the Hornets with the playoffs, not just as a limited minutes backup PG. He probably won't re-sign to be a limited minutes backup PG in the summer if he can help it, though, judging by how he chose the Hornets over the Warriors. He'll help the team make the playoffs and then move on in the summer if he can't find a home here.

That's still a bargain for $2M.

[yosemiteben]

Everything we have heard about Cliff suggests that he is a straight up guy, gives honest feedback, and guys always know where they stand with him. I highly doubt that Lin feels in any way manipulated or misled by the role he has in Charlotte.

[spaceballer]

Everything we have heard about Cliff suggests that he is a straight up guy, gives honest feedback, and guys always know where they stand with him. I highly doubt that Lin feels in any way manipulated or misled by the role he has in Charlotte.

I agree, I'm sure the discussions of role and minutes had caveats that things can change based on a number of factors and was no way an ironclad guarantee to mislead or manipulate Lin. Things change during the season, and that's fine. Everyone wants changes for the betterment of the team and wins (including Cliff and Lin, neither are selfish individuals).

Nonetheless, I'm sure Lin (and Cliff and everyone else alive) may have certain expectations or hopes coming into the season, and he signed the contract based on those things when he made his choice of Hornets over Warriors. I think the reason for turning down the the Warriors because he didn't want to be a limited minutes/role backup PG on a winning team when he is entering the athletic prime of his life will still apply in the summer.

Cliff may hope for one thing and tell his players that (like saying whether he wants to play a 9 man rotation) and then fail to carry through due to in game situations or whatnot. There's no malice or fault involved, just the way things turn out sometimes.

But this article illustrates the choices Lin made and his mindset when he signed the contract. Whether those expectations or hopes are fulfilled during the season, whether he can find a home here as more than just a limited minutes backup PG, will inform his decision to re-sign or not in the summer.

[TinmanZBoy]

For example, lets say next year, the Warriors offered Lin a chance to back up Curry and return to the Bay area. Although that would mean Lin only getting 15-20 minutes a game and less money. I bet he would gladly choose that situation over signing with a team like the Nets, where he can start on a terrible team, for more money. Again I am using two extreme examples to make my point.

I'm not sure if he would choose a losing Nets team, since he did say one reason he didn't really consider the 76'ers was that "they always lose" and he's doesn't want to be on a tanking team after the tanking season with Byron Scott. But in today's NYPost article, he's provided some insight on the Golden State Warriors bit.

It was a surprise Lin chose the small-market Hornets after playing in the larger markets in the Bay Area, New York, Houston and Los Angeles (last season with the Lakers). Lin said he had a chance to rejoin his hometown Warriors, but he wanted a bigger role.

“I entertained it,’’ Lin said. “I just felt like they had something great going there, and if I went there, it would be a very limited role. I felt like, ‘I’m 27 now.’ I want to find where I can be as big a part of a successful team as I can.’’
http://nypost.com/2015/11/17/jeremy-lin-finds-a-home-after-carmelo-friction-warriors-flirting/

He turned down an offer from the Warriors this off-season because he felt they had a good thing going there, and he didn't think he'd get a lot of minutes or a big role there. He's entering the athletic prime of his life and he wants to find a home where he can have a big role and be a big part of a team winning, not a limited minutes backup. So he chose Hornets based on his conversations with Cliff that Charlotte would be the place with the most role and minutes (as both PG backing up Kemba, and SG next to Walker, I think a bit like the 30 minutes a game he got as backup PG/SG on the Rockets, perhaps), even though the Hornets started out not even in his top 6 choices.

Obviously things can change and has, and the games need to be played. But he turned down the champion Warriors for the Hornets, who started out not even in his top 6 choices, based on his expectation of role and minutes from his conversations with Cliff prior to signing. Because he didn't want to be a limited minutes/role backup PG when he turned down the Warriors pitch for Cliff's pitch of being both backup PG and SG next to Walker (perhaps kind of like the 30 minutes a game he got as backup PG/SG on the Rockets).

Let's hope the Hornets make the playoffs and he gets to play a significant role in that to justify his choice of Charlotte over his hometown Warriors based on Cliff's pitch. It's a long season, and let's hope Lin can make a difference and help the Hornets with the playoffs, not just as a limited minutes backup PG. He probably won't re-sign to be a limited minutes backup PG in the summer if he can help it, though, judging by how he chose the Hornets over the Warriors. He'll help the team make the playoffs and then move on in the summer if he can't find a home here.

That's still a bargain for $2M.

I think you and some lin fans stretch a little too much... "he entertained it" does not mean he got an offer from the Warriors, the Warriors have a very good backup PG in Livingston who can defend 1-3 and post up most if not all PGs, and they also have the brazillian blur... I don't see they have a instant position for lin, and they don't have money to sign lin straight...
let's be realistic, last off season's market was not good for lin... he did not have many options... rumors aside, the only real offer was from Memphis (per Lin's dad) who wanted to lock Lin up for multiple years for cheap... others like Dallas, Chicago, even the lakers, he had to wait and risk a potential no job... put everything together, he signed with Hornets for cheap...he probably did not even have the leverage to demand a MLE which was around his true value...
coach Clifford can't guarantee Lin anything, or any player anything regarding playing time... but Lin can obviously imagine what Mo Williams did in Hornets, which is not bad... this is a team he potentially can have a big role, but things have to play out toward Lin's favor for him to shine...again nothing is guaranteed ... the pace of hornets offense is not in lin's favors, but other parts of game, and coaching (coach clifford is a really good coach) are favorable to him... just wait and see

[spaceballer]

I also found this quote interesting:

“It’s not so much proving to other people, but being free, having that happiness on the court again, instead of being put in a box,’’ Lin said. “It really was a lot more personal than me wanting to do the things I knew I’m capable of doing, playing the way I know I could, not anyone’s perception of me. I might not have the same usage rate as I had in D’Antoni’s system, but I’m a different player in that I can do more things.’’

[spaceballer]

The video that the Fung Bros flew out to Charlotte to film with Lin. Shares NBA insider slang like "tag", "cleanse", "blue/down/ice". He's learning moves from watching little kids

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mZjBVTFKKA[/youtube]

[fatlever]

Can someone provide a credible link that mentions Lin turning down an offer from the Warriors? Just curious. Not saying its not true, I just don't remember it. I'd hate for hearsay to get repeated enough that months from now it is repeated as fact.

[spaceballer]

Can someone provide a credible link that mentions Lin turning down an offer from the Warriors? Just curious. Not saying its not true, I just don't remember it. I'd hate for hearsay to get repeated enough that months from now it is repeated as fact.

It seems to stem from Lin's quotes from the interview this morning at the shoot around, based on today's NY Post article.