Political Roundtable - Part VII

[pineappleheadindc]

With regard to shutting down ISIS propaganda and recruiting websites, FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler said Friday in a Subcommittee hearing "I'm not sure our authority extends to [shut down the websites]..."

WTF - if he's not sure about his authority at this late stage of a growing Caliphate, shouldn't he quickly become sure one way or the other?

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/260438-fcc-says-it-cant-shutdown-online-terrorist-activity

Replace "authority" with "capability", then it's a true statement.

I defer to your superior knowledge of the net Induveca but just to clarify, are you saying we don't have the capability to identify and unplug a terrorist website?

The FCC does not have LEGAL authority to shut down websites. But Congress can fix that by passing a law (or amendment into the Telecommunications Act) to give the FCC authority.

BUT -- heads up small "g" government types. You just gave an *independent* regulatory agency -- one that doesn't even report to the President -- power to switch off internet sites. Slippery slope....

[Zonkerbl]

Replace "authority" with "capability", then it's a true statement.

I defer to your superior knowledge of the net Induveca but just to clarify, are you saying we don't have the capability to identify and unplug a terrorist website?

The FCC does not have LEGAL authority to shut down websites. But Congress can fix that by passing a law (or amendment into the Telecommunications Act) to give the FCC authority.

BUT -- heads up small "g" government types. You just gave an *independent* regulatory agency -- one that doesn't even report to the President -- power to switch off internet sites. Slippery slope....

I trust you Pine.

[nate33]

Replace "authority" with "capability", then it's a true statement.

I defer to your superior knowledge of the net Induveca but just to clarify, are you saying we don't have the capability to identify and unplug a terrorist website?

The FCC does not have LEGAL authority to shut down websites. But Congress can fix that by passing a law (or amendment into the Telecommunications Act) to give the FCC authority.

BUT -- heads up small "g" government types. You just gave an *independent* regulatory agency -- one that doesn't even report to the President -- power to switch off internet sites. Slippery slope....

I would not support giving the government authority to shut down websites. It's pointless anyhow. The radicals would simply use message boards, usenet, ftp, or some other method to sidestep the Feds. At best, we should be monitoring the sites as a method to identify and track bad apples.

[DCZards]

Integration. It always seems to come back to this. What bugs me is that whenever a minority group fails to assimilate into European culture, it is always the whites who are at fault.

Where on this planet is there a successful integration of Muslims and non-Muslims?

Nate, doesn’t it also bother you that, according to the article you quoted, France deserves a lot of the blame for the lack of assimilation on the part of its Muslim population?

I don’t believe you should force others to embrace your culture and lifestyle (like dress) if it’s not consistent with their beliefs and values. There are aspects of European culture that are an anathema to Muslims—and others.

[pineappleheadindc]

I defer to your superior knowledge of the net Induveca but just to clarify, are you saying we don't have the capability to identify and unplug a terrorist website?

The FCC does not have LEGAL authority to shut down websites. But Congress can fix that by passing a law (or amendment into the Telecommunications Act) to give the FCC authority.

BUT -- heads up small "g" government types. You just gave an *independent* regulatory agency -- one that doesn't even report to the President -- power to switch off internet sites. Slippery slope....

I would not support giving the government authority to shut down websites. It's pointless anyhow. The radicals would simply use message boards, usenet, ftp, or some other method to sidestep the Feds. At best, we should be monitoring the sites as a method to identify and track bad apples.

I endorse Nate's thoughts, above.

Even if we gave the FCC authority to shut down websites, its authority does not include ISPs, servers, etc that reside in a foreign country. It couldn't (nor shouldn't) be able to shut down content that resides in hardware/software in Canada, Sweden, Russia or any other country. At least the FCC shouldn't.

If you really want to go there...DOD (or CIA) cyperwarfare specialists? Maybe. But it'll never be wholly effective at it and we'll not be able to monitor aggregations of radicals in order to develop some background and intelligence.

[Induveca]

With regard to shutting down ISIS propaganda and recruiting websites, FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler said Friday in a Subcommittee hearing "I'm not sure our authority extends to [shut down the websites]..."

WTF - if he's not sure about his authority at this late stage of a growing Caliphate, shouldn't he quickly become sure one way or the other?

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/260438-fcc-says-it-cant-shutdown-online-terrorist-activity

Replace "authority" with "capability", then it's a true statement.

I defer to your superior knowledge of the net Induveca but just to clarify, are you saying we don't have the capability to identify and unplug a terrorist website?

Between TOR technologies, dynamic DNS, the difficulty of analyzing scraped Arabic text with current linguistic technologies, embedding the text within images and videos. The answer is a definitive no.

As mentioned above though, most analysts/companies involved in the space see the sites as a goldmine of information when discovered. Shutting down such a website would be the equivalent of turning off a phone tap as soon as it's turned on for SIGINT purposes. Infiltrating/monitoring those communities yields far more information/assistance than merely shutting them down. Shut one down it's back up within a few days or even hours.

[nate33]

Integration. It always seems to come back to this. What bugs me is that whenever a minority group fails to assimilate into European culture, it is always the whites who are at fault.

Where on this planet is there a successful integration of Muslims and non-Muslims?

Nate, doesn’t it also bother you that, according to the article you quoted, France deserves a lot of the blame for the lack of assimilation on the part of its Muslim population?

I don’t believe you should force others to embrace your culture and lifestyle (like dress) if it’s not consistent with their beliefs and values. There are aspects of European culture that are an anathema to Muslims—and others.

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

[Induveca]

Integration. It always seems to come back to this. What bugs me is that whenever a minority group fails to assimilate into European culture, it is always the whites who are at fault.

Where on this planet is there a successful integration of Muslims and non-Muslims?

Nate, doesn’t it also bother you that, according to the article you quoted, France deserves a lot of the blame for the lack of assimilation on the part of its Muslim population?

I don’t believe you should force others to embrace your culture and lifestyle (like dress) if it’s not consistent with their beliefs and values. There are aspects of European culture that are an anathema to Muslims—and others.

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

What "existing culture"? I deal with at least 20-30 different "cultures" just standing in line for lunch or dinner everyday in NYC. This includes Pakistanis, Persians, Turks, Lebanese, Chinese, Japanese....and me the Dominican. Shockingly, we all probably shop at the same stores for our boring 35+ business casual attire.

[DCZards]

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

Most of the Muslims I know (many of them African-Americans) are no more of a "guest" in this country than you are. Some of them have roots in this country that date back hundreds of years. And their culture, lifestyle and dress are far from "radically different" than that of most Americans. There are probably people you come in contact with everyday who are Muslims and you don't even know it.

Most Muslims are NOT "radically different" than other Americans and most do subscribe to the same set of laws/community standards as you and I. In fact, I'd argue that the average Muslim is likely to have a higher standard of behavior than the average American, especially as it relates to how you treat, speak to and respect others.

[nate33]

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

Most of the Muslims I know (many of them African-Americans) are no more of a "guest" in this country than you are. Some of them have roots in this country that date back hundreds of years. And their culture, lifestyle and dress are far from "radically different" than that of most Americans. There are probably people you come in contact with everyday who are Muslims and you don't even know it.

Most Muslims are NOT "radically different" than other Americans and most do subscribe to the same set of laws/community standards as you and I. In fact, I'd argue that the average Muslim is likely have a higher standard of behavior than the average American, especially as it relates to how they treat, speak to and respect others.

Let's try this as an example. According to the Washington Post, the following countries think that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death: Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and the Sudan. Death!

If this is the value system of these individuals, and they immigrate to the U.S. and form a community large enough to start enacting their own policies, how to we reconcile their beliefs with our value system? Do we meet in the middle? Homosexuality should only result in whipping, not death? Surely, you would agree that, in this case, the values of the existing, dominant culture should supersede the value system of the immigrant community.

[crackhed]

No biggie but I don't believe Nigeria belongs on that list

[dckingsfan]

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

Most of the Muslims I know (many of them African-Americans) are no more of a "guest" in this country than you are. Some of them have roots in this country that date back hundreds of years. And their culture, lifestyle and dress are far from "radically different" than that of most Americans. There are probably people you come in contact with everyday who are Muslims and you don't even know it.

Most Muslims are NOT "radically different" than other Americans and most do subscribe to the same set of laws/community standards as you and I. In fact, I'd argue that the average Muslim is likely have a higher standard of behavior than the average American, especially as it relates to how they treat, speak to and respect others.

Let's try this as an example. According to the Washington Post, the following countries think that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death: Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and the Sudan. Death!

If this is the value system of these individuals, and they immigrate to the U.S. and form a community large enough to start enacting their own policies, how to we reconcile their beliefs with our value system? Do we meet in the middle? Homosexuality should only result in whipping, not death? Surely, you would agree that, in this case, the values of the existing, dominant culture should supersede the value system of the immigrant community.

How does this jive against the changing values (especially 2nd and 3rd generations) after those individuals arrive in the US? How does the view/laws of a country jive against the views of individuals. I think this becomes a pretty grey area. My point is that immigrants are much more likely to adopt our culture than we are to adopt their culture.

Of course President Arthur was able to do it with the Chinese - so it could be done.

[Zonkerbl]

There are many branches of Christianity in the United States right now that believe homosexuality is a crime that should be punishable by death. I say deport all Christians.

[nate33]

How does this jive against the changing values (especially 2nd and 3rd generations) after those individuals arrive in the US? How does the view/laws of a country jive against the views of individuals. I think this becomes a pretty grey area. My point is that immigrants are much more likely to adopt our culture than we are to adopt their culture.

Of course President Arthur was able to do it with the Chinese - so it could be done.

Let's see how that has worked in Europe:


Europe Grapples with "Honor Killings"

Fadime Sahindal, a 26-year-old Turkish university student with a Swedish boyfriend, was murdered by her father in Sweden in 2002. He insisted she marry a man from Turkey.

In Britain last year, Abdalla Yones, a Kurdish Muslim who stabbed his 16-year-old daughter, Heshu, 11 times and slit her throat after she started a relationship with a Christian boyfriend, was jailed for life.

"Honor killings," as the phenomenon is known, usually involve women being murdered, usually by brothers and fathers, for having sex outside marriage, dating, refusing an arranged marriage, wanting to go to university or even having been raped. The practice is not uncommon in traditional, male-dominated Arab societies.

Honor killings on the rise in Netherlands

In the last few years, there have been more than 500 reports of honor killing in the Netherlands. In 2013, the number even rose. These incidents take the form of abuse, rape, kidnapping or murder, and are all in the effort to avenge someone.

This is according to the yearly report from the National Expertise Center Honor Related Violence (LEC EGG). The center gets requests for help from regional police units, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (IND) and from institutions where female victims are sheltered.

The victims of honor revenge are mostly Dutch people with a Turkish, Moroccan, Iraqi or Afghan background. In 20 cases in 2013, whereby the expertise center was involved, the revenge was fatal, with either murder, homicide or suicide.

Europe: "You Are Entering a Sharia Controlled Zone"

A Muslim group in Denmark has launched a campaign to turn parts of Copenhagen and other Danish cities into "Sharia Law Zones" that would function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Islamic law.

The Danish Islamist group Kaldet til Islam (Call to Islam) says the Tingbjerg suburb of Copenhagen will be the first part of Denmark to be subject to Sharia law, followed by the Nørrebro district of the capital and then other parts of the country, the center-right Jyllands-Posten newspaper reported on October 17.

Call to Islam says it will dispatch 24-hour Islamic 'morals police' to enforce Sharia law in those enclaves. The patrols will confront anyone caught drinking alcohol, gambling, going to discothèques or engaging in other activities the group views as running contrary to Islam.

Again, I ask, What's the rush? Europe has obviously been thrown into turmoil but Muslim immigrants. Maybe things will settle down and peaceful coexistence is possible. But maybe not. The problem is, if we are wrong and coexistence is not possible, it will be too late to change our minds. We have a controlled lab experiment going on in Europe right now. Let's see how it turns out before making any hasty decisions that will have lasting repercussions in our hemisphere.

[Zonkerbl]

And this is precisely the problem with "diversity". How do you reconcile the belief systems of two radically different cultures under one set of laws/community standards?

If something has to give, I think it should be incumbent on the new arrivals to adopt the practices of the existing culture. They're guests after all. I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia and demand that my wife and daughter be permitted to wear bikinis in public. This notion that the two cultures should somehow meet in the middle is flawed. Sometimes there is no middle. And in those cases, the existing culture should prevail.

Most of the Muslims I know (many of them African-Americans) are no more of a "guest" in this country than you are. Some of them have roots in this country that date back hundreds of years. And their culture, lifestyle and dress are far from "radically different" than that of most Americans. There are probably people you come in contact with everyday who are Muslims and you don't even know it.

Most Muslims are NOT "radically different" than other Americans and most do subscribe to the same set of laws/community standards as you and I. In fact, I'd argue that the average Muslim is likely have a higher standard of behavior than the average American, especially as it relates to how they treat, speak to and respect others.

Let's try this as an example. According to the Washington Post, the following countries think that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death: Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and the Sudan. Death!

If this is the value system of these individuals, and they immigrate to the U.S. and form a community large enough to start enacting their own policies, how to we reconcile their beliefs with our value system? Do we meet in the middle? Homosexuality should only result in whipping, not death? Surely, you would agree that, in this case, the values of the existing, dominant culture should supersede the value system of the immigrant community.

So you're making an argument for Christian privilege.

I love this country enough to believe it will survive an influx of Muslims fleeing religious persecution. That is what this country is FOR.

[Induveca]

Nate, I'm curious what is your lineage? Unless you're 100% SE English ancestry they were likely subject to these same questions from frightened "locals"/media no?

Not trying to pile on, just curious. How many generations does it take to reach this cultural integration you mention? Or does the "American culture" you reference even exist? I'd argue the American culture is the eclectic mix of hundreds of cultures ensuring good lives for their families via hard work?

[nate33]

There are many branches of Christianity in the United States right now that believe homosexuality is a crime that should be punishable by death. I say deport all Christians.

Your attempt at moral equivalency is a failure. There are, of course, wack jobs with wacky belief systems in all religions. But with Christianity, the extremely wacky are in such a small minority that they will never have the power to enact any laws. I just named 9 actual countries with the death penalty for homosexuals on the books. This is not apples to apples as much as you wish it to be.

[Zonkerbl]

There are many branches of Christianity in the United States right now that believe homosexuality is a crime that should be punishable by death. I say deport all Christians.

Your attempt at moral equivalency is a failure. There are, of course, wack jobs with wacky belief systems in all religions. But with Christianity, the extremely wacky are in such a small minority that they will never have the power to enact any laws. I just named 9 actual countries with the death penalty for homosexuals on the books. This is not apples to apples as much as you wish it to be.

Frankly I'm not worried about that. If you believe homosexuals should be executed why would you leave? I would welcome refugees from those countries who are being persecuted. With open fricking arms because I'm not an ahole.

[Zonkerbl]

And I'll just leave this here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/17/what-americans-thought-of-jewish-refugees-on-the-eve-of-world-war-ii/?tid=pm_pop_b

[Zonkerbl]

And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis