Don't Be Hurtin' Lin - The Jeremy Lin Thread 2

[TTNN]

Hi there all the Hornets Fans and Lin’s fans,

Very nice meeting y’all and I wish you all a Happy Holiday Season!!!

Hi, nice to meet you

First of all, let me say this; the hornets fans and Lin’s fans in this forum are by far the most rationally fans compare to what I have seen in the other forums such as Rockets and Lakers. Therefore I have decided to register and post my comments about Lin which will be posted right after this.

Guys have grown

I would also take this chance to introduce myself a little. I came from Asian so my grammar is not very good and I apologize for that in advance.

Sorry, can't help! This is classic! No problem!

I am a NFL fans and NBA fans but I actually follow players instead of a team. Players such as Warren Moon, Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Barry Sanders, Tom Brady, Reggie Miller, Hakeem Olajuwon, Jason Williams, Chris Webber, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, etc, etc. As you can see it has nothing to do with races but rather on the performance and personality in order for me to like/follow a player.

But you have the Spurs next to your handle?

Rockets – It was all about of James Harden but I would have done the same if I was the coach as James is a better offensive player and Patrick Beverly is a better fit as Harden doesn’t play defense. But Lin still gets a fair amount of playing time and McHale did let Lin run the offense in the second unit and an offensive style with a lot of freedom which really fitted Lin well. McHale did criticize Lin time to time but Lin # still gets called especially when Harden was injured. And they traded Lin because they wanna sign Melo or Bosh which I understand and have no problem with it. After all, NBA is still business.

Disagreed. The "give the ball to Harden" offense was doomed for failure. Put the ball in Lin's hands, let him grow and facilitate for all the scorers would have been so much more effective.

Lakers – Byron was hired to protect Kobe in the final years of his career. Lin, Nick Young, Carlo Boozer have all became the scapegoats. Byron has been trying his best not to have Lin steal any of the spot light from Kobe. Move such as he has sub Lin out when Lin was in rhythm, he has publicly told the reporters that he doesn't like to run pick & roll which really took the strongest strength away from Lin. In fact, Byron is still doing the same, taking the blames to protect Kobe and that is the only reason Lakers hired him.

Na, the main thing was tanking for the pick

In any case, back to Lin; the only coaches that have praised Lin were the coaches of the opposite teams such as Sam Mitchell, Fred Hoiberg, George Karl, etc.

Good observation, but actually:

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/the-redemption-of-jeremy-lin

Clifford said he absolutely believes Lin will be a starting point guard in the league. "I watch him play and, I mean, it's not like he's not doing anything that he's not going to be able to do consistently," Clifford said. "It's not like you're saying, 'He's made 19 of his last 20 threes,' or something. No. He's a good player."

Clifford noted that Lin's comfort shooting the ball, his improved mobility to the basket with both hands, and his defensive performances are all at the highest level of his career. He's scoring, too; his per-36-minute production is comparable to his Linsanity numbers.

So why is this happening to Lin once again? Simple, it is because Lin wasn’t in their long terms plan from the very beginning. Yup, not even a one year rental. Lin is only a preseason rental at the cost of 2.4 million for a big ass marketing show in China. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't agree. It's not that bad. He's a bargain, they'd love it if he signs a long term deal 2 per.

I think one big reason Lin signs here is for self improvement. He believes that Cliff and Silas can help him take his game to the next level. It's kinda like his sophomore season, and it has only just begun. It's on Lin to make shots and not turn the ball over. They'd have to play him if it happens.

You can tell Lin was once again so afraid of making mistake or bad play, so he chooses to be passive. Unless a coach has already given up on a player which is exactly what happens to Lin.

So much for choosing a team that understands his game. Again Lin is only a preseason rental for marketing purpose to Hornets. Lin’s fans most likely have to wait another year in order to see if he can find the right “Team” to call home.

Well, it's a long season. I can understand the frustration but patience isn't a bad thing.

Lastly, thank you for your time for reading my comments. Bye all!

You're welcome, (it's indeed time consuming!) see ya!

C'est la vie! Lin is larger than bball.

He cho is. RealGM just so happens to be a basketball forum, so I'd imagine that'd continue to be the focus of discussion.

~lol~ Well, since you (multiple?) are not obliged to click on the thread, I guess that's a positive thing!

Right-O! But why deprive me of the entertainment? This is one of the few places where you can see grown(?) men taking time out of their afternoon to complain about another grown man they don't know getting 20 minutes in an NBA game instead of 25. This is valuable bandwidth right here

Ok cool, even tho you're not making much sense here.

wow, you are patient and nice.

[FantasyBBcoach]

A lot of you guys need to quit playing the victim. If Lin wants more than the 23 minutes he already gets, he should play better. Plain and simple. His 23 minutes is just fine for what he's giving us. I'm happy with him playing those 23 minutes, maybe more if he cuts the turnovers and shoots better from three.

Agreed. And I never said Lin deserve more than 23 mins. Anywhere from 20-25 mins is good enough. The rest is up to him to earn it but Clifford has to at least give him a chance to fight for it.

Also, Lin is a SG most of the time when playing with Kamba and Nic which Lin stand in the corner to spread the floor. I can tell that Lin is aware of his role which he is not the first option. Most of the time he passes the ball to Kamba and Nic and let them run the offense first which I am perfectly fine with it as it actually opens up floor and more easy for everyone (Yea, for Al too ) to attack. As long as Coach is giving him the minutes and chances he deserve then I am sure most rational Lin's fans won't complain.

And what I meant by give him a chance mean that he won't get sub for just one bad play/bad shot/TO, etc. He is an attack PG which drawing a lot of foul and double team. However if he doesn't get the call then it might turn out to be either a assist/made basket/bad shot/TO, etc. You can not just look at the stats and say he is turnover prone. You also have too look at the benefit for getting his teams in bonus early in the quarter and drawing double team because of the way he attacks.

Also, Clifford should consistently give him 20 to 22 mins a game instead of 29/15/31/16 to build his confidence if Hornets do decide to keep him. Of cause the 2nd year is player option but I am pretty sure any player can tell whether they have a future or not from how the coach is treating them.

Go Hornets!

[13th Man]

And he should. MKG has a far greater impact on the game than what we've seen from Lin so far.

Fair enough but goes to show that this team may not be the best fit for Lin after all, contradicting Lin's initial assessment. Remember Charlotte wasn't even on Lin's radar during FA so Clifford must've done some impressive selling to get him to come here.

I'm sure Cliff did not expect both Marv and Lamb to come out the gates so impressively, but even with that 30 MPG was never a realistic PT goal. Since before preseason Hornets fans who like Lin (myself included) were saying 22 - 25 MPG was much more likely.

Cliff is going to and should play the group that he thinks puts us in the best position to win, and I'm sure he told Lin that when they met in the summer. If Lin goes off he can force his way to more minutes, but we have enough depth that he's not going to be force fed 30 MPG.

I agree with everything you said except I think the minutes scale could be balanced out a bit more. i.e. instead of 30mpg (very optimistic), or 22 mpg (current), I think it could or should be 25-26 mins.

This is where the subbing in earlier comes into play. This would knock off a few of Kemba's (who I like and have no problems with) minutes, and would allow Lin to play a bit more pg as well.

No offense, but the Hornets are not the Spurs or GSW, the strength of this team lies in it's balanced depth. I just think the minutes could be more balanced as well without impacting the success of the team.

[13th Man]

Kemba is averaging more assists per game, per 36 minutes, per 100 possessions, and he has a higher assist % and assist/TO ratio. Lin is shooting worse percentages and is behind Kemba in virtually every statistical category. Your guys delusions about Lin are really starting to wear thin. I'm a Lin fan and think he should get more minutes, but some of you guys need to accept reality.

Careful with the "your guys" as if there is a monolithic perspective.

Fair enough. I certainly didn't mean all Lin fans.

From this thread, I can safely say that not all fans think alike as each have varying perspectives and theories but one thing that we seem to agree upon in general is that he could use a few more minutes a game.

Now realistically, it can come from either Lamb, Kemba, or a big like Al or maybe MW (playing small ball to close out games). Lamb's minutes are already nominal in the low 20's, Al's minutes have also been erratic. The only other guy who could "afford" to lose some minutes is Kemba or Marvin. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Lin has outplayed Kemba in any way, shape or form so I'm not advocating for equal minutes but perhaps just to narrow the gap a little bit by having Lin sub in a bit earlier. But that's just my opinion.

[FantasyBBcoach]

I am a NFL fans and NBA fans but I actually follow players instead of a team. Players such as Warren Moon, Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman, Barry Sanders, Tom Brady, Reggie Miller, Hakeem Olajuwon, Jason Williams, Chris Webber, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, etc, etc. As you can see it has nothing to do with races but rather on the performance and personality in order for me to like/follow a player.

But you have the Spurs next to your handle?

I like Tim Duncan and Pop a lot. Not sure why Spurs is in the handle as I really didn'y pay much attention when registering.

Rockets – It was all about of James Harden but I would have done the same if I was the coach as James is a better offensive player and Patrick Beverly is a better fit as Harden doesn’t play defense. But Lin still gets a fair amount of playing time and McHale did let Lin run the offense in the second unit and an offensive style with a lot of freedom which really fitted Lin well. McHale did criticize Lin time to time but Lin # still gets called especially when Harden was injured. And they traded Lin because they wanna sign Melo or Bosh which I understand and have no problem with it. After all, NBA is still business.

Disagreed. The "give the ball to Harden" offense was doomed for failure. Put the ball in Lin's hands, let him grow and facilitate for all the scorers would have been so much more effective.

I guess. IMO I still think James Harden is a better ISO player than Lin. However that's not team ball but hero ball = failure.

In any case, back to Lin; the only coaches that have praised Lin were the coaches of the opposite teams such as Sam Mitchell, Fred Hoiberg, George Karl, etc.

Good observation, but actually:

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/the-redemption-of-jeremy-lin

Clifford said he absolutely believes Lin will be a starting point guard in the league. "I watch him play and, I mean, it's not like he's not doing anything that he's not going to be able to do consistently," Clifford said. "It's not like you're saying, 'He's made 19 of his last 20 threes,' or something. No. He's a good player."

Clifford noted that Lin's comfort shooting the ball, his improved mobility to the basket with both hands, and his defensive performances are all at the highest level of his career. He's scoring, too; his per-36-minute production is comparable to his Linsanity numbers.

Uhhh. I really doubt it. You see, Clifford is a lot smarter than Byron and he knows how to talk to the media.

So why is this happening to Lin once again? Simple, it is because Lin wasn’t in their long terms plan from the very beginning. Yup, not even a one year rental. Lin is only a preseason rental at the cost of 2.4 million for a big ass marketing show in China. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't agree. It's not that bad. He's a bargain, they'd love it if he signs a long term deal 2 per.

I think one big reason Lin signs here is for self improvement. He believes that Cliff and Silas can help him take his game to the next level. It's kinda like his sophomore season, and it has only just begun. It's on Lin to make shots and not turn the ball over. They'd have to play him if it happens.

Let see. I hope I am wrong too. But only time can tell.

You can tell Lin was once again so afraid of making mistake or bad play, so he chooses to be passive. Unless a coach has already given up on a player which is exactly what happens to Lin.

So much for choosing a team that understands his game. Again Lin is only a preseason rental for marketing purpose to Hornets. Lin’s fans most likely have to wait another year in order to see if he can find the right “Team” to call home.

Well, it's a long season. I can understand the frustration but patience isn't a bad thing.

Hopefully.

[ChokeFasncists]

^
Harden is surely better at ISO, it's McHale's decision that's the problem.

Well, I don't know if Cliff means it or not, but at least he's got some high praise for Lin.

I like the Spurs too, cheers!

[kinein]

You can take whatever you want out of that.

I stand by my comments, your little infographic only further proves my point, Lamb should have been subbed out for Lin.

You do realize you only further magnified your tunnel-vision by ignoring Lambs stats.

Please note, I am talking about 1-game, for 2 minutes versus the Cavs.

[TinmanZBoy]

i was watching Lin's highlight against Hornets last season... MKG was on lin the whole 4th? Just watch how lin did against MKG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEIWL_FfBlM

[Roy Tarpley]

Watching that video bums me out about the gradual degradation of Lin's career, not in terms of skill but of utilization. It's not as bad as Lawson's in terms of stark disparity or even Dragic, but it's sad nonetheless. Let's take a look:

Knicks: During the Linsanity month of February 2012, he was averaging 35 min/game, 21pts, 8ast, 4rebs, and 5 TOs, very John Wall-esque. In March when Melo came back, Lin still averaged 31 min, 15pts, 6ast, 3rebs, 3.8 TOs. Overall, Lin had free reign in his ideal system but was raw and wild in terms of development. Still, he was shooting 45% FG, 32% 3PT, and 80% FT -- good numbers for a guard, though the 3PT% below average.

Rockets Year 1: The bloom of the Linsanity rose was off but he was still a bonafide starter averaging 32min, shooting 44%FG, 34% 3PT, 79% FT, 13PT, 6 ast, 2.9 TO. Rockets also made the playoffs. Lin didn't have free reign since Harden was ball dominant but Lin was still a solid starter in a run-and-gun system that matched his style. Also, he improved his ability to go left, cut down his TOs, and improved his 3PT shooting.

Rockets Year 2: To balance Harden's matador defense and ball dominance, the Rockets converted Lin into a 6th man, putting Beverley in his place. Still Lin was THE 6th man, averaging 29 min/game, and even starting 33 games for the playoff bound Rockets. He shot 45% FG, 36% 3PT, 82% FT (all career highs), with 12pts and 4 asts and 2.5 TOs. Lin underwent a lot of turmoil trying to convert into a catch-and-shoot SG, but he improved his percentages across the board, and continued improving his defense. Still, this year was a slight downgrade from his previous year, not in terms of skills development but player status (starter to 6th man).

Lakers: Lin went from a good, albeit non-ideal, situation (great Rockets system but a team in transition) to a tanking Lakers team that was Year 1 of the Kobe death watch. Still, at least Lin began the season as a starter before Byron arbitrarily turned him into a backup PG behind Ronnie Price, and then more understandably Jordan Clarkson. Nevertheless, Lin averaged 26 min, 11pts, 5 asts, 2.2 TOs, and even shot a career high 37% of 3PT.

Hornets: Now, Lin is undisputedly a bench player, backup PG, averaging 23 min shooting the worst numbers of his career, 41% FG and 29% 3PT. His usage rate is high, so he's still getting 11pts/game but only averaging 2.8 ast and 2.8 reb. TOs are down to 1.9/game,and his TO% is the lowest of his career.

Summary: Lin has gone from Linsanity star to solid starter to starter/6th man to partial starter/backup to bench player/backup. And this is in his prime age of 28. What a terrible career trajectory, someone fire his agent, lol!

[Roy Tarpley]

As for the explanations for Lin's diminished playing time, it's like Teddy KGB says in Rounders: "I feel so unsatisfied."

#1: "Lin was never getting 28-30 min/game." We all agree that Clifford and Cho made no promises about actual numbers. But all the signs and context seemed to point to more playing time. Lin's career average of 27min/game. Lin's talk of choosing a place that would give him the most minutes playing his style. Lin leading the Hornets pre-season in minutes and points. MJ calling Lin the "biggest acquisition." Kemba's need for help given his career FG% of 39%. MKG going down, creating a void. Cliff's supposed desire to have a 9-man rotation. Mo Williams getting high 20s in minutes as a backup guard to Kemba and Hendo. D'Antoni whispering in his friend Cliff's ear about how good Lin is. None of it adds up.

#2: "Lin will get more minutes when he plays better." I really hate this one. Particularly because there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation between how well you play and your playing time. Kemba can shoot 1-15 and he'll get his consistent minimum of 32min/game, which is fine because he's EARNED this trust as a veteran. I get it. I just wish this applied to Lin as well. Lin is a 3-time playoff veteran whose career numbers are pretty great, he's also earned some benefit of the doubt despite his early season woes.

Another problem is that there are indeed games where Lin plays well (e.g., his clutch plays in the overtime SAC game, his 17 and 19 pt efforts against NYK and MIN), and yet that doesn't lead to more playing time. He maxes out at 28 minutes and sometimes will only get 15-17 min.

#3: "Lin's minutes will even out in the end." Some people think that Lin's minutes will start going up toward the end of the season as the rotation solidifies and playoff expectation heightens. Maybe, I could see that happening. I just don't see why we have to wait. What do we gain by playing Kemba 35, 41, 47, 35 minutes as we did in the last 4 games? Or by playing Hairston 20 minutes, while he shoots 32% FG and 29% 3PT. It may seem like I am a Linophile making biased Lintastic homerish arguments, but I'm really trying to argue this from the perspective of the betterment of the team. You have a veteran, playoff-tested PG who is known for unselfish team play, clutch abilities, relatively good defense, strong ability to get to the line, good FT%, and you have a team that is looking to enhance its playmaking on offense -- the answer seems to be pretty obvious, and yet I continue to hear convoluted answers to marginalize the obvious answer.

Perhaps most frustrating is -- and let me specific and clear here since most long-time Hornets fans have by and large been very supportive and welcoming of Lin -- the inability of SOME longtime Hornets fans to not be more supportive of Lin, a HORNET.

I get it. Some or most of us Lin fans are annoying because we talk about him non-stop to the exclusion of the team and some of us seem to talk about him as if he's the Messiah. So I can see how it creates a knee-jerk autoimmune response to take the opposite position and argue against the Lin fans. I get it.

This is why I've tried my best to use empirical evidence, facts, specificity, examples to make rational arguments about Lin rather than emotional, unsubstantiated ones that only seek to elevate Lin to the detriment of the team. I've also done my best to understand team history, culture and invest in the other players.

I absolute LOVE how Kemba has elevated his play, and quite frankly I think he has a good jumper and I'm surprised why his FG% has been so low for his career. I guess having more talent around his is really making a difference.

I see how Al still provides value despite his limited defensive abilities. Against the right opponent, his post skills are still formidable. Also, I probably trust his 10 ft jumper more than anyone else on the team -- that pick and pop should be utilized all day!

I want to see Lamb get more burn, his shot is so damn pure and his athleticism is a surprise. In fact, I wish we'd see a little more Troy Daniels too, he is a 3pt sharpshooter.

I'm glad to see how great a player Marvin is. I never followed him on the Hawks or Hornets but I always thought of him as a bust since he was a high draft pick who didn't meet expectations. But I've been surprised by his 3pt shooting and rebounding.

I've come around on Zeller -- I thought he was a stiff, but his energy is so necessary on this team and he can be very effective with his athleticism, slashes, and rebounding.

Hawes --- I got nothing.

But I wish some of the long-time Hornets fans would also take the time to be more supportive of the fellow Hornet Lin as well. I generally see lots of qualified remarks like "I like Lin and I hope he does well but" and then I see one of the 3 explanations above. Put on your Lin-fan hat for a day and step into those shoes. It may lead to good will and understanding from the Lin fan-base as well. Maybe even a respite from the non-stop Lin talk! If everyone agrees that Lin needs more playing time, then why beat the dead horse!

[steady]

Nice post RT.

For myself i'm done trying to persuade anyone

Lin's got to adjust his expectations. Play hard and smart this year. Be practical about it being a contract year for him. He'll be fine whether it works out here or not.

[bws94]

A lot of you guys need to quit playing the victim. If Lin wants more than the 23 minutes he already gets, he should play better. Plain and simple. His 23 minutes is just fine for what he's giving us. I'm happy with him playing those 23 minutes, maybe more if he cuts the turnovers and shoots better from three.

It's very important to stop playing the victim. Nobody likes whiners. Lin is tough and determined. Basketball and most pro sports are based on what have you done lately, not in a former team. When Lin plays smart, he plays. It's not that he turns the ball over or not I think, it's how he turns it over.

I'm not happy with 23 minutes because I KNOW he can produce great with 27/28 minutes even if he makes horrendous mistakes. And that production tends to come late in games and in the 4Q. However, at this point in his career, some of the repeated mistakes he makes, mistakes in decisions are unacceptable. He's supposed to be a smart guy but frankly, some of his mistakes in a basketball sense are dumb ones.

Lin has the clutch gene. But he won't be in there crunch time if it looks like he's too much of a risk. Charlotte will learn that he's high risk/high reward but people have to know that coaches sometimes won't take the gamble.

[bws94]

i was watching Lin's highlight against Hornets last season... MKG was on lin the whole 4th? Just watch how lin did against MKG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEIWL_FfBlM

His jumper is working in that game, guys are where they are supposed to be for him to kick out to them, AND, big one, he's playing with Ed Davis. Put Ed Davis on Charlotte and in the lineup with Lin, then Lin looks like a different player. Lin lacks that big PnR guy that he has chemistry with like Davis to produce. So Lin is trying to get it with others, Zeller, Hawes and he has nice chemistry with Lamb. But still, Lamb and Lin disconnect at times. It's still a work in progress. With Davis, it was almost immediate.

Also, I think this game is after the ASB, he had a lot more time spent with those guys than he has with Charlotte's guys.

[bws94]

Also, I want to make this clear to Hornets long-timers. If Lin does well and the Hornets don't I'm not happy. I want Lin to help make the Hornets a winning team. It's easy to root for the Hornets and this time Lin chose the team. Lin is a part of the team only, not the star, but a nice weapon to use strategically during the games and I think close most games and my hope that he does well this year, helps the team win a lot of games, and does at least one more year here. Go Hornets and good luck to Jeremy Lin and all the Hornets players to help them Win.

[FantasyBBcoach]

Lin = Preseason rental and scapegoat.

Nothing more and nothing less. Please trade him as it should be easy to replace a back up PG but playing more as a back up SG that play about 20 mins a game.

[Liver_Pooty]

Lin = Preseason rental and scapegoat.

Nothing more and nothing less. Please trade him as it should be easy to replace a back up PG but playing more as a back up SG that play about 20 mins a game.

Scapegoat for what? We're 10-7 and have overachieved big time thus far, and he has helped in the process. You're being delusional.

[rayfantastic]

Well said bws. Well said.

[FantasyBBcoach]

Lin = Preseason rental and scapegoat.

Nothing more and nothing less. Please trade him as it should be easy to replace a back up PG but playing more as a back up SG that play about 20 mins a game.

Scapegoat for what? We're 10-7 and have overachieved big time thus far, and he has helped in the process. You're being delusional.

Scapegoat for the bad offensive possession end with a long jumper from Cody in 4 qtr around 2:14 and got sub out. It is unfair imo.

[lin is ok]

Wow another lin bencing despite playing well.

[lin is ok]

Why did fantasybbcoach get suspended?