GT: Cavs @ Hornets, 11/27 7:00

[tyusedney]

I like Lin. I like his underdog story. He is a solid NBA player. But pls don't act like he is a special player who needs a special treatment from his coach and his teammates. The main concern from this loss isn't Lin, the main concern is we gave a lot of OR and we didn't move the ball well last night. That's all.

It makes sense to put him in the closing lineup, even based on the games this year. Lin an Zeller last night closing may have made a difference. Not that what you say is wrong, I totally agree with him. Lin as part of the Kemba/Batum/Lin facilitators opens things up. Lamb and Al have their roles and are big pieces of the team but I don't like either as closers. Al sometimes, but if he's in have as many facilitators in a s possible.

Look, i have said it before that i prefer to see Lin to close the the game. At this point he has proven he is better than Lamb to close the game. OTOH Lamb just signed a contract that made him a Hornet for years ahead and i think that was the reason why Clifford let him to close the game. As a young player Lamb plays well without pressure, but can he produce at crunch time?

what about PJ, has he sign an extension?

[bws94]

let's revisit Lin's two TOs, the first is a bounce pass to Zeller... could have been a fantastic play if they connected... the second is actually Lamb collided into Lin... really not bad... Lin played well in this one
i think Coach Clifford Benched Lin not because of his TOs, but he needed to put Kemba in... who else was in was dictated by how he saw the match ups... If Mo was in with Delly, I am pretty sure coach would have stayed with Lin... coach thinks lamb could handle J.R. defensively and Lamb is good rebounder, offensively lamb is a shooter on the court...

Lin had JR contained when he was on him. JR got in a rhythm, he's that kind of player.

[bws94]

Look like Lamb was trying to come strip the ball away from Lin after he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him or what to do. I find myself doing this subconciously & mentally with my eyes on about 50% of time Lin touches the ball

I don't think that's fair. While Lin sometimes drives without a clear plan for the most part in this game, especially the first half, he was setting the offense up well and calmly. My thoughts are Lin is trying to draw fouls but it doesn't always work. If there is a guy that is there under the rim, he usually get it to them as his dribble/drive draws defenders in. It's that ability that has led to some nice plays in the crunch, like that behind the back pass he made to Al late in one game.

Lamb and Lin's chemistry is mostly good, but there are times it shows it needs to get better. That's all. They've made some highlight-worthy lobs in a few games. In fact, they made one in the Cav game.

[ChokeFasncists]

let's revisit Lin's two TOs, the first is a bounce pass to Zeller... could have been a fantastic play if they connected... the second is actually Lamb collided into Lin... really not bad... Lin played well in this one
i think Coach Clifford Benched Lin not because of his TOs, but he needed to put Kemba in... who else was in was dictated by how he saw the match ups... If Mo was in with Delly, I am pretty sure coach would have stayed with Lin... coach thinks lamb could handle J.R. defensively and Lamb is good rebounder, offensively lamb is a shooter on the court...

Glad you brought up Lin's TOs. I have been watching his second TO and scratching my head, wondering why Lamb need to drive in? What he was trying to do there?

Here is the play. I honestly don't get it.

http://on.nba.com/21m4rVF

Lamb probably sees his bro Lin in trouble and trying to come to the rescue but......they'll figure it out

What the heck is OR?

Offensive rebound.

Arh, cool.
I don't think that was the main concern. The main concern was Della, JR making shots and the lack of ball movement.

[yosemiteben]

When Lin drives in to defenses with no real plan in mind it reminds me a whole lot of Kemba the last couple seasons. Just like Kemba prior to this season, Lin needs to be more decisive when he has the ball - either drive when the defense isn't set or move the ball, but you can't dribble while you think of what to do, then try to drive into a set defense with the goal of getting your own shot rather than kicking out as soon as the defense collapses.

I think Lin has all the skills to be successful and is just still figuring out his role and how to be effective within the flow of our offense. I know it's fun to label our first unit as "clogged toilet offense," but Lamb and Lin can play ISO ball with the best of them. Think we are all still figuring out how to keep the ball from sticking without abandoning the ability of our guys to breakdown defenses off the dribble.

[TTNN]

When Lin drives in to defenses with no real plan in mind it reminds me a whole lot of Kemba the last couple seasons. Just like Kemba prior to this season, Lin needs to be more decisive when he has the ball - either drive when the defense isn't set or move the ball, but you can't dribble while you think of what to do, then try to drive into a set defense with the goal of getting your own shot rather than kicking out as soon as the defense collapses.

I think Lin has all the skills to be successful and is just still figuring out his role and how to be effective within the flow of our offense. I know it's fun to label our first unit as "clogged toilet offense," but Lamb and Lin can play ISO ball with the best of them. Think we are all still figuring out how to keep the ball from sticking without abandoning the ability of our guys to breakdown defenses off the dribble.

agree with you everything, but just for the sake of discussion.

I see quite some people was saying "when Lin drives with no real plan", so I'm wondering, what is the definition of "have a real plan"? I'd like to challenge people when Lin drive and made a behind the back pass or a wrap around pass to people, were you able to call that purpose out before hand? So without seeing the result, could you tell he drive in with a real plan in those plays or not?

So when we say he drives without a real plan, does that include things he had a plan but we could not read it, or simply because he failed, so we call it does not have a plan?

Sorry, just from pure logical point of view of the argument, it could apply to Kemba or other players too. (Though i think a lot of people might hold the view that Kemba drive with a plan to shoot, so he at least has a plan. Though it might not be the case all the time. Kemba pass too ).

[sidestep]

When Lin drives in to defenses with no real plan in mind it reminds me a whole lot of Kemba the last couple seasons. Just like Kemba prior to this season, Lin needs to be more decisive when he has the ball - either drive when the defense isn't set or move the ball, but you can't dribble while you think of what to do, then try to drive into a set defense with the goal of getting your own shot rather than kicking out as soon as the defense collapses.

I think Lin has all the skills to be successful and is just still figuring out his role and how to be effective within the flow of our offense. I know it's fun to label our first unit as "clogged toilet offense," but Lamb and Lin can play ISO ball with the best of them. Think we are all still figuring out how to keep the ball from sticking without abandoning the ability of our guys to breakdown defenses off the dribble.

agree with you everything, but just for the sake of discussion.

I see quite some people was saying "when Lin drives with no real plan", so I'm wondering, what is the definition of "have a real plan"? I'd like to challenge people when Lin drive and made a behind the back pass or a wrap around pass to people, were you able to call that purpose out before hand? So without seeing the result, could you tell he drive in with a real plan in those plays or not?

So when we say he drives without a real plan, does that include things he had a plan but we could not read it, or simply because he failed, so we call it does not have a plan?

Sorry, just from pure logical point of view of the argument, it could apply to Kemba or other players too. (Though i think a lot of people might hold the view that Kemba drive with a plan to shoot, so he at least has a plan. Though it might not be the case all the time. Kemba pass too ).

Will be interested in what yosemiteben has to say in response. Personally, I think it's more useful to take one's eyes off Lin when he drives and instead look at how his teammates move -- are they shifting to open spots on the arc ready for a kickout? are they cutting when Lin sucks in defenders? Lin's drives regularly draw help defense, so someone else, in principle, should be open. That's the main value of his dribble penetration.

Eg, going back to the earlier play that TTNN posted, Lamb doesn't shift along the arc into that passing lane between two defenders. he chooses to cut to where all bodies are bunched up together instead of finding an opening.

Lin is a 5-on-5 player. If teammates don't take advantage of his ability to put pressure on the defense, it limits Lin to isolation situations, in which case he and the team are just less dangerous.

[yosemiteben]

I see quite some people was saying "when Lin drives with no real plan", so I'm wondering, what is the definition of "have a real plan"? I'd like to challenge people when Lin drive and made a behind the back pass or a wrap around pass to people, were you able to call that purpose out before hand? So without seeing the result, could you tell he drive in with a real plan in those plays or not?

So when we say he drives without a real plan, does that include things he had a plan but we could not read it, or simply because he failed, so we call it does not have a plan?

Sorry, just from pure logical point of view of the argument, it could apply to Kemba or other players too. (Though i think a lot of people might hold the view that Kemba drive with a plan to shoot, so he at least has a plan. Though it might not be the case all the time. Kemba pass too ).

Fair question. I think my issue is that he will dribble up top as though he is waiting for something (not that that is even the problem, there may be some offensive rotations that others are not doing), then it seems like he decides it is time to drive and he tries to beat his man off the dribble. If he can't, then he either will reset by dribbling under and around the basket, during which he usually seems like he is still debating whether to put up a fade away or pull out and reset, or he attempts some variation of a fade away jumper. From that perspective, "no real plan" really means a desire to create his shot that is poorly timed and doesn't result in a good shot for himself or anyone else.

My issue is that too rarely do we see him collapse a defense and quickly dish out to someone on the perimeter. Fair point that maybe that's not his fault and guys aren't in position, but really the only time I get frustrated with him is when he seems too occupied with finding a way to get up a shot and less focused on using his drives to set up teammates. Anecdotal and maybe not accurate, but the primary issue I have is when he is indecisive in setting up his drives, then drives straight into double teams and turns it over or forces up a bad shot.

I don't mind if he misses shots (like I've said before, a couple years of poor shooting from Kemba have desensitized me to poor shooting %'s from a driving PG), I just have lately not liked the kinds of shots he has been taking. Nothing is more frustrating lately than feeling like we have a team capable of great ball movement and perimeter shooting, then seeing our PG dribble up top with our offense stagnant, then just drive into a set defense resulting in a turnover or poor shot off the dribble. That applies to both Kemba and Lin, it's just that Kemba has been worlds better this season and I think Lin is still figuring it out.

[mrknowitall215]

Look like Lamb was trying to come strip the ball away from Lin after he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him or what to do. I find myself doing this subconciously & mentally with my eyes on about 50% of time Lin touches the ball

Not sure when you said "he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him" was referring to Lin or Lamb.

It definitely looks like Lamb was trying to strip the ball away from Lin to me, the timing and the angle looks a nice help defense to me there. Without Lamb in the way, Lin was about to pass the ball to Zeller who cut in the right time and angle.....

To me, there was traffic in the lane, that Lamb just has no reason to crash in, and he should stay out side to space the floor, instead, he bring his defender in, and he works as the best defender there.......

I was referring to Lin "aimlessly driving into traffic without a clue". Lamb seemed to crash down into Lin unintentionally thinking that Lin was going to shoot before he got a 3-second violation

[TTNN]

Look like Lamb was trying to come strip the ball away from Lin after he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him or what to do. I find myself doing this subconciously & mentally with my eyes on about 50% of time Lin touches the ball

Not sure when you said "he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him" was referring to Lin or Lamb.

It definitely looks like Lamb was trying to strip the ball away from Lin to me, the timing and the angle looks a nice help defense to me there. Without Lamb in the way, Lin was about to pass the ball to Zeller who cut in the right time and angle.....

To me, there was traffic in the lane, that Lamb just has no reason to crash in, and he should stay out side to space the floor, instead, he bring his defender in, and he works as the best defender there.......

I was referring to Lin "aimlessly driving into traffic without a clue". Lamb seemed to crash down into Lin unintentionally thinking that Lin was going to shoot before he got a 3-second violation

? Lin was about to pass the ball to the cutting Zeller there, and got crashed by Lamb.

Kind of surprised that this play would get you feel Lin was driving into traffic aimlessly, whereas I was wondering what was the aim and clue Lamb was when Lamb was driving into Lin.

How come the same play we could have so much difference when we look at it? So you don't wonder what Lamb was doing before you wonder what Lin was doing?

[mrknowitall215]

Not sure when you said "he yet again aimlessly drove into traffic without a clue of what was waiting for him" was referring to Lin or Lamb.

It definitely looks like Lamb was trying to strip the ball away from Lin to me, the timing and the angle looks a nice help defense to me there. Without Lamb in the way, Lin was about to pass the ball to Zeller who cut in the right time and angle.....

To me, there was traffic in the lane, that Lamb just has no reason to crash in, and he should stay out side to space the floor, instead, he bring his defender in, and he works as the best defender there.......

I was referring to Lin "aimlessly driving into traffic without a clue". Lamb seemed to crash down into Lin unintentionally thinking that Lin was going to shoot before he got a 3-second violation

? Lin was about to pass the ball to the cutting Zeller there, and got crashed by Lamb.

Kind of surprised that this play would get you feel Lin was driving into traffic aimlessly, whereas I was wondering what was the aim and clue Lamb was when Lamb was driving into Lin.

How come the same play we could have so much difference when we look at it? So you don't wonder what Lamb was doing before you wonder what Lin was doing?

If Lin would've passed he would've gotten a 3-second in the key violation

[BatumtheGlue]

It makes sense to put him in the closing lineup, even based on the games this year. Lin an Zeller last night closing may have made a difference. Not that what you say is wrong, I totally agree with him. Lin as part of the Kemba/Batum/Lin facilitators opens things up. Lamb and Al have their roles and are big pieces of the team but I don't like either as closers. Al sometimes, but if he's in have as many facilitators in a s possible.

Look, i have said it before that i prefer to see Lin to close the the game. At this point he has proven he is better than Lamb to close the game. OTOH Lamb just signed a contract that made him a Hornet for years ahead and i think that was the reason why Clifford let him to close the game. As a young player Lamb plays well without pressure, but can he produce at crunch time?

what about PJ, has he sign an extension?

Did PJ close that game?

[TTNN]

I was referring to Lin "aimlessly driving into traffic without a clue". Lamb seemed to crash down into Lin unintentionally thinking that Lin was going to shoot before he got a 3-second violation

? Lin was about to pass the ball to the cutting Zeller there, and got crashed by Lamb.

Kind of surprised that this play would get you feel Lin was driving into traffic aimlessly, whereas I was wondering what was the aim and clue Lamb was when Lamb was driving into Lin.

How come the same play we could have so much difference when we look at it? So you don't wonder what Lamb was doing before you wonder what Lin was doing?

If Lin would've passed he would've gotten a 3-second in the key violation

I don't think so, Lin went in with 15s on the clock and the ball was bumped out when it just turned 13, so he had almost a second there.

Anyway, do you get what Lamb rush in for? You have Zeller and Kaminsky both underneath the basket, there was absolute no lane for Lamb to get in for either tip in or for rebound. What I was puzzling was what Lamb was trying to do there? If you think Lin had no time to pass to Zeller, would Lamb drive in help that?

[TinmanZBoy]

a nice breakdown of the game
http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2015/11/30/the-breakdown-cleveland-cavaliers-95-charlotte-hornets-90/

[kinein]

you said Daniels is a poor defender and can only catch-and-shoot. well, that means he's at least better than PJ at catch-and-shoot whereas PJ is just awful at everything, even defense and hitting (missing) wide open shots. you also said that PJ's offensive talent (in other words, no talent) won't get used and becomes invisible as if that's such a great thing. but if Daniels can only catch-and-shoot, wouldn't that be another huge plus for starting Daniels instead?

Thats a poor trade as well, teams will exploit Daniels continuously. Basically in today's league 1-dimensional players do contribute on, one side of the ball, but your risking losing games or running it fairly close because your going to get diced up and sliced up on the other side of the ball.

Thats why Daniels and Hairston are bargain players. You aren't getting much right now. Hairston they are hoping to develop and also they can't afford to have him on bench, they need Lin really badly to lead the 2nd squad. So the unique situation is, Hairston isn't good enough for the bench, so by default he goes into the starting line-up ... as I see it. Purely my opinion.

if PJ isn't good enough for the bench, wouldn't it make sense that he wouldn't be good enough to start? he really shouldn't be getting any minutes at all. with Daniels, you're getting a much better catch-and-shoot player and probably a better defender than PJ who does gives you nothing

Hornets have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.

Put Hairston on the Bench and have Lin start = a 2nd unit which has no one to lead. Overall you'd rather diminish your starting squads potential by a certain % point to increase the efficiency of unit 2, by a certain %.

Its the wisest choice they can make to take a hit with the starting squad so that they can field a half-way decent 2nd unit. Teams with no bench, go no where.