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Political Roundtable - Part VII

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1841 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:08 pm

Dat2U wrote:Republicans have taught us that blaming workers and their unions was cool and actually the right thing to do. You ask any right wing nut and they'll tell you unions are there to protect the lazy and the people that should be fired. That it's not fair to expect a living or decent wage anymore...'your paid what your worth and if your struggling to feed your family, its more of an indictment of your lack of skills and education then anything else. Maybe you shouldn't have had as many kids either if you don't have a way to pay for 'em. Either way, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, learn a skill and learn how to market yourself as they say... then maybe you'll get a job that pays more.'


That's a mean way of saying it. Why should the people who have pulled themselves up by their boostraps and gotten an education be denied the opportunity to bid on a project because they are not a part of the union?

But I don't think that's the real issue anyway. There are no unions anymore, really, in the private sector. I mean they exist but they have zero bargaining power because of international competition and offshoring. The only unions are in the public sector, and those unions exist to keep people from being fired for political reasons. The problem is those unions have grown to include people whose job isn't all that politically sensitive, like HR. There's no reason we couldn't contract out all our admin work - HR, IT, record-keeping. That's what the Republicans are really arguing about and the government unions are fighting back tooth and nail but gradually losing as we contract more and more of that stuff out. IT is completely contracted out already, what's scary is now the economists at our agency are getting contracted out which is cutting dangerously close to the bone.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1842 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:11 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:TGW - so what is the answer? Since we are talking Chicago, what would you do there?


Well, for one, I would go after the gun makers to ensure that their products don't make it from the factory to the streets. A gray area exists where military/police grade weaponry is somehow finding it's way in the hands of teenagers. How and why does that happen? Are the Chicago teens sneaking in the Colt manufacturing plant and stealing machine guns from the warehouse? Are collector getting robbed?

There are middle men in play that the government does not go after. The underground market is flooding the street with weapons, and the manufacturers get to wipe their hands clean. I GUARANTEE if manufacturers were held accountable for their products and where they end up, you'd see a swift decline in gun-related homicides.

Secondly, I would do a guns-for-cash exchange program, and it would be wholly sponsored by the gun manufacturers. Or maybe a "Kicks for guns" program that had spectacular results in Orlando.

http://www.realradio.fm/pages/kicksforguns.html

I would also have them sponsor an online "see and report" website where rewards are given to tipsters who report a past or active crime that ends up in a conviction.

Thirdly--I would kill the privately owned prison system in Illinois. They are complicit in ensuring that Chicago is a crime haven so that there prisons stay stocked with inmates (and ultimately they get to line their pocket with state funds). I would also bring back the degree programs (for inmates with 7 years or less) in prisons so that inmates can actually rehabilitate and not come out of prison worse than they were when they went in.

Chicago isn't as hopeless as people make it out to be...the corruption needs to stop at the top. From there, it will trickle down to the streets.

I don't know how you can hold gun manufacturers accountable for making guns that effectively kill people. That's what guns are for.

If there is a problem with guns leaking out into the black market, there are individual criminals responsible. If those criminals actually work for gun manufacturers, then, sure, the gun manufacturers can be sued. But if middlemen gun dealers are involved, it's not the manufacturer's responsibility.


This is another way of saying the only way to solve this problem is to make the manufacture and import of guns illegal.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1843 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:26 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Lots of interesting discussion about the Paris Climate change talks. And lots of political maneuvering but inside the US and outside.

Seems like many of the emerging economies are looking for $$s. I think that Obama is making a tactical mistake going into the meetings.

And before there is a discussion about if global warming is happening. I think it is (just for the record). But I also think we should be strategic about how we approach the subject. IMO, Obama is giving away the store in advance of the negotiations. That might be unfair - but that is my opinion based upon what I have read (and the outcome of the China negotiations).


Some interesting US climate change negotiation trivia - due to a Supreme Court ruling, the EPA is already required to use all of its (extremely ill-suited) regulatory tools to attempt to address the US contribution to climate change. This makes the internal negotiations different - if you continue to do nothing about climate change, then you get EPA's clunky version. You can't actually stop the US from imposing controls on carbon emissions, you can only make them more predictable and less costly.

So as far as international negotiations are concerned, we've already done our bit. China and India will ask us to pay for their emissions, perhaps by limiting emissions from developed countries more severely and then setting up a carbon trading system so we end up having to buy a lot of emissions permits from China and India.

It would be completely unenforceable, particularly if we try to address deforestation in Brazil which is contributing just as much to global warming as China and India's emissions. I will be pleasantly surprised if they come up with a solution but I imagine the developing countries approaching the negotiations as an opportunity for a $100 billion handout (rather than seriously addressing climate change) is going to gum up the works considerably.


Yep, hence the reason why these discussions will end in nothing good for the US. The best thing for the US is for the talks to fail.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1844 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:46 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Lots of interesting discussion about the Paris Climate change talks. And lots of political maneuvering but inside the US and outside.

Seems like many of the emerging economies are looking for $$s. I think that Obama is making a tactical mistake going into the meetings.

And before there is a discussion about if global warming is happening. I think it is (just for the record). But I also think we should be strategic about how we approach the subject. IMO, Obama is giving away the store in advance of the negotiations. That might be unfair - but that is my opinion based upon what I have read (and the outcome of the China negotiations).


Some interesting US climate change negotiation trivia - due to a Supreme Court ruling, the EPA is already required to use all of its (extremely ill-suited) regulatory tools to attempt to address the US contribution to climate change. This makes the internal negotiations different - if you continue to do nothing about climate change, then you get EPA's clunky version. You can't actually stop the US from imposing controls on carbon emissions, you can only make them more predictable and less costly.

So as far as international negotiations are concerned, we've already done our bit. China and India will ask us to pay for their emissions, perhaps by limiting emissions from developed countries more severely and then setting up a carbon trading system so we end up having to buy a lot of emissions permits from China and India.

It would be completely unenforceable, particularly if we try to address deforestation in Brazil which is contributing just as much to global warming as China and India's emissions. I will be pleasantly surprised if they come up with a solution but I imagine the developing countries approaching the negotiations as an opportunity for a $100 billion handout (rather than seriously addressing climate change) is going to gum up the works considerably.


Yep, hence the reason why these discussions will end in nothing good for the US. The best thing for the US is for the talks to fail.


Looking at the political economy of the thing I don't see how they could possibly succeed.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1845 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 3:46 pm

http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1846 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 4:32 pm

dckingsfan wrote:http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...


Why is "not understanding statistics" considered a valid counter-argument to climate change science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions."

Your article flatly states that "Expert computer analysts then demonstrated, however, that the methods used to construct this graph were hopelessly flawed. It became the most discredited artefact in scientific history."

This article has zero credibility. They don't even know how to spell "artifact." Go read something else.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1847 » by DCZards » Tue Dec 1, 2015 4:54 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:That's a mean way of saying it. Why should the people who have pulled themselves up by their boostraps and gotten an education be denied the opportunity to bid on a project because they are not a part of the union?

But I don't think that's the real issue anyway. There are no unions anymore, really, in the private sector. I mean they exist but they have zero bargaining power because of international competition and offshoring. The only unions are in the public sector, and those unions exist to keep people from being fired for political reasons. The problem is those unions have grown to include people whose job isn't all that politically sensitive, like HR.


That's a very simplistic and uninformed view of public sector unions. Yes, pub sector unions play an important role in guarding a worker's job security against favoritism, discrimination, etc. But they also fight for essential elements of the American Dream for these workers, including livable wages, decent benefits, a safe and healthy workplace, and a secure retirement.

Unions also help to ensure that workers have a say in their working conditions and how the work is done. After all, don’t you want classroom teachers and school principals to have a viable voice in how children are educated, rather than leave it up to politicians and policy makers?

The advocacy of unions on behalf of their members has benefited many, many nonunion workers, although most of the nonunion workers don’t know it…or won’t admit it.

Zonkerbl wrote:There's no reason we couldn't contract out all our admin work - HR, IT, record-keeping. That's what the Republicans are really arguing about and the government unions are fighting back tooth and nail but gradually losing as we contract more and more of that stuff out. IT is completely contracted out already, what's scary is now the economists at our agency are getting contracted out which is cutting dangerously close to the bone.


About half of the IT staff in my workplace are contractors...and most of them can’t wait to apply for one of the staff union IT positions. Because the pay, benefits and job security they get as contract workers sucks.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1848 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:14 pm

DCZards wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:That's a mean way of saying it. Why should the people who have pulled themselves up by their boostraps and gotten an education be denied the opportunity to bid on a project because they are not a part of the union?

But I don't think that's the real issue anyway. There are no unions anymore, really, in the private sector. I mean they exist but they have zero bargaining power because of international competition and offshoring. The only unions are in the public sector, and those unions exist to keep people from being fired for political reasons. The problem is those unions have grown to include people whose job isn't all that politically sensitive, like HR.


That's a very simplistic and uninformed view of public sector unions. Yes, pub sector unions play an important role in guarding a worker's job security against favoritism, discrimination, etc. But they also fight for essential elements of the American Dream for these workers, including livable wages, decent benefits, a safe and healthy workplace, and a secure retirement.

Unions also help to ensure that workers have a say in their working conditions and how the work is done. After all, don’t you want classroom teachers and school principals to have a viable voice in how children are educated, rather than leave it up to politicians and policy makers?

The advocacy of unions on behalf of their members has benefited many, many nonunion workers, although most of the nonunion workers don’t know it…or won’t admit it.

Zonkerbl wrote:There's no reason we couldn't contract out all our admin work - HR, IT, record-keeping. That's what the Republicans are really arguing about and the government unions are fighting back tooth and nail but gradually losing as we contract more and more of that stuff out. IT is completely contracted out already, what's scary is now the economists at our agency are getting contracted out which is cutting dangerously close to the bone.


About half of the IT staff in my workplace are contractors...and most of them can’t wait to apply for one of the staff union IT positions. Because the pay, benefits and job security they get as contract workers sucks.


Well you didn't read what I said. It's all very nice that unions try to get these things but due to international competition they have absolutely no ability to do so in the private sector.

I'm in a union and none of my incompetent colleagues can be fired, which means people like me who take the job seriously have to do their work for them. I'm not anti-union (and my grandfather was a card-carrying Communist union organizer, for what that's worth) but they're ineffective at worst and a mixed blessing at best.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1849 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:45 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...


Why is "not understanding statistics" considered a valid counter-argument to climate change science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions."

Your article flatly states that "Expert computer analysts then demonstrated, however, that the methods used to construct this graph were hopelessly flawed. It became the most discredited artefact in scientific history."

This article has zero credibility. They don't even know how to spell "artifact." Go read something else.


hehehe, this is just supporting that this is political - that the credibility on both sides of the argument should be questioned. And this doesn't reflect my opinion.

For the record, I want no accord - but more so because I feel that the positives of some getting power (say in India) outstrip the negatives of some global warming. Which neither side adequately takes into account, IMO.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1850 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:46 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...


Why is "not understanding statistics" considered a valid counter-argument to climate change science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions."

Your article flatly states that "Expert computer analysts then demonstrated, however, that the methods used to construct this graph were hopelessly flawed. It became the most discredited artefact in scientific history."

This article has zero credibility. They don't even know how to spell "artifact." Go read something else.

Image

The Medieval Warming Period was considered fact and acknowledged as such in all relevant literature up until 1998. The Medieval Warming Period was particularly alarming to those pushing the global warming agenda because it belied the notion that the warming of this past century is unprecedented. As Jay Overpeck, an IPCC participant said in his email to Professor Deming in 2005, "I get the sense that I’m not the only one who would like to deal a mortal blow to the misuse of supposed warm period terms and myths in the literature."

Then, in late 1998, Michael Mann comes forth with a radical new theory using tree ring data and a whole lot of statistical massaging, he made the Medieval Warming Period disappear! Normally, such a dramatic change in conventional understanding would be met with skepticism, requiring years of follow-up research, and confirmation, but not so with Mr. Mann. It took just 12 months for his paper to be thoroughly incorporated and enshrined as fact in the Third Assessment Report of the IPCC in 2000. The Hockey Stick was then revealed in 2001.

Fortunately, Steve McIntyre demanded to see the raw data and the analysis and he and Ross McKitrick dug deep to see what Mann was doing with his statistical manipulations. Here is an example of what they found:

Image

Above are two separate temperature reconstructions running from 1400AD, both use tree rings, one is from California and one is from Arizona. Both were were part of the data used by Mann and included in the Hockey Stick average. The top one shows a temperature up tick at the end in the 20th century like the final Hockey Stick, the other shows a relatively flat temperature for the 20th century. Mann’s statistical trick gives the top series, the one with the desired Hockey Stick shape a weighting in the data that is 390 times that of the bottom series just because it has a Hockey Stick bend at the end. This means that whatever data is fed into Mann’s statistical manipulations is almost bound to produce a Hockey Stick shape whether it is actually in the data or not.

Without Mann's statistical manipulations, the data looked like this:
Image

Eventually a US senate committee of inquiry was set up in 2006 under the chairmanship of Edward Wegman a highly respected Professor of mathematics and statistics to evaluate the controversy. They concluded:

Our committee believes that the assessments that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade in a millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year in a millennium cannot be supported by the MBH98/99 [the technical name of Mann’s original Hockey Stick paper]

Conclusion 1. The politicization of academic scholarly work leads to confusing public debates. Scholarly papers published in peer reviewed journals are considered the archival record of research. There is usually no requirement to archive supplemental material such as code and data. Consequently, the supplementary material for academic work is often poorly documented and archived and is not sufficiently robust to withstand intense public debate. In the present example there was too much reliance on peer review, which seemed not to be sufficiently independent.

Conclusion 2. Sharing of research materials, data, and results is haphazard and often grudgingly done. We were especially struck by Dr. Mann’s insistence that the code he developed was his intellectual property and that he could legally hold it personally without disclosing it to peers. When code and data are not shared and methodology is not fully disclosed, peers do not have the ability to replicate the work and thus independent verification is impossible.

Conclusion 3. As statisticians, we were struck by the isolation of communities such as the paleoclimate community that rely heavily on statistical methods, yet do not seem to be interacting with the mainstream statistical community. The public policy implications of this debate are financially staggering and yet apparently no independent statistical expertise was sought or used.

Conclusion 4. While the paleoclimate reconstruction has gathered much publicity because it reinforces a policy agenda, it does not provide insight and understanding of the physical mechanisms of climate change except to the extent that tree ring, ice cores and such give physical evidence such as the prevalence of green-house gases. What is needed is deeper understanding of the physical mechanisms of climate change.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1851 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 5:52 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:That's a mean way of saying it. Why should the people who have pulled themselves up by their boostraps and gotten an education be denied the opportunity to bid on a project because they are not a part of the union?

But I don't think that's the real issue anyway. There are no unions anymore, really, in the private sector. I mean they exist but they have zero bargaining power because of international competition and offshoring. The only unions are in the public sector, and those unions exist to keep people from being fired for political reasons. The problem is those unions have grown to include people whose job isn't all that politically sensitive, like HR.


That's a very simplistic and uninformed view of public sector unions. Yes, pub sector unions play an important role in guarding a worker's job security against favoritism, discrimination, etc. But they also fight for essential elements of the American Dream for these workers, including livable wages, decent benefits, a safe and healthy workplace, and a secure retirement.

Unions also help to ensure that workers have a say in their working conditions and how the work is done. After all, don’t you want classroom teachers and school principals to have a viable voice in how children are educated, rather than leave it up to politicians and policy makers?

The advocacy of unions on behalf of their members has benefited many, many nonunion workers, although most of the nonunion workers don’t know it…or won’t admit it.

Zonkerbl wrote:There's no reason we couldn't contract out all our admin work - HR, IT, record-keeping. That's what the Republicans are really arguing about and the government unions are fighting back tooth and nail but gradually losing as we contract more and more of that stuff out. IT is completely contracted out already, what's scary is now the economists at our agency are getting contracted out which is cutting dangerously close to the bone.


About half of the IT staff in my workplace are contractors...and most of them can’t wait to apply for one of the staff union IT positions. Because the pay, benefits and job security they get as contract workers sucks.


Well you didn't read what I said. It's all very nice that unions try to get these things but due to international competition they have absolutely no ability to do so in the private sector.

I'm in a union and none of my incompetent colleagues can be fired, which means people like me who take the job seriously have to do their work for them. I'm not anti-union (and my grandfather was a card-carrying Communist union organizer, for what that's worth) but they're ineffective at worst and a mixed blessing at best.


I think that there is a second problem and that is promising wages that can't be delivered. If the wages had to be paid in the here and now vs. the unfunded liability issues that are plaguing our municipalities and states. Politicians are knowingly entering into agreements that we can not afford in the future.

I the private sector, the entity would go bankrupt and the judge would decide how to distribute whatever equity was left.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1852 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 6:07 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...


Why is "not understanding statistics" considered a valid counter-argument to climate change science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions."

Your article flatly states that "Expert computer analysts then demonstrated, however, that the methods used to construct this graph were hopelessly flawed. It became the most discredited artefact in scientific history."

This article has zero credibility. They don't even know how to spell "artifact." Go read something else.


hehehe, this is just supporting that this is political - that the credibility on both sides of the argument should be questioned. And this doesn't reflect my opinion.

For the record, I want no accord - but more so because I feel that the positives of some getting power (say in India) outstrip the negatives of some global warming. Which neither side adequately takes into account, IMO.


No. This is wrong. You are quoting an article composed entirely of bullcrap and saying this crap needs equal time because it's political. That's wrong. Some idiot who knows nothing about statistics deserves absolutely zero attention. It's not politics. It's science. If you can't do statistics you have no right to participate in a conversation about statistics.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1853 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 6:11 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:http://tinyurl.com/phawd7t

More on global warming, the skeptics...


Why is "not understanding statistics" considered a valid counter-argument to climate change science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions."

Your article flatly states that "Expert computer analysts then demonstrated, however, that the methods used to construct this graph were hopelessly flawed. It became the most discredited artefact in scientific history."

This article has zero credibility. They don't even know how to spell "artifact." Go read something else.

Image

The Medieval Warming Period was considered fact and acknowledged as such in all relevant literature up until 1998. The Medieval Warming Period was particularly alarming to those pushing the global warming agenda because it belied the notion that the warming of this past century is unprecedented. As Jay Overpeck, an IPCC participant said in his email to Professor Deming in 2005, "I get the sense that I’m not the only one who would like to deal a mortal blow to the misuse of supposed warm period terms and myths in the literature."

Then, in late 1998, Michael Mann comes forth with a radical new theory using tree ring data and a whole lot of statistical massaging, he made the Medieval Warming Period disappear! Normally, such a dramatic change in conventional understanding would be met with skepticism, requiring years of follow-up research, and confirmation, but not so with Mr. Mann. It took just 12 months for his paper to be thoroughly incorporated and enshrined as fact in the Third Assessment Report of the IPCC in 2000. The Hockey Stick was then revealed in 2001.

Fortunately, Steve McIntyre demanded to see the raw data and the analysis and he and Ross McKitrick dug deep to see what Mann was doing with his statistical manipulations. Here is an example of what they found:

Image

Above are two separate temperature reconstructions running from 1400AD, both use tree rings, one is from California and one is from Arizona. Both were were part of the data used by Mann and included in the Hockey Stick average. The top one shows a temperature up tick at the end in the 20th century like the final Hockey Stick, the other shows a relatively flat temperature for the 20th century. Mann’s statistical trick gives the top series, the one with the desired Hockey Stick shape a weighting in the data that is 390 times that of the bottom series just because it has a Hockey Stick bend at the end. This means that whatever data is fed into Mann’s statistical manipulations is almost bound to produce a Hockey Stick shape whether it is actually in the data or not.

Without Mann's statistical manipulations, the data looked like this:
Image

Eventually a US senate committee of inquiry was set up in 2006 under the chairmanship of Edward Wegman a highly respected Professor of mathematics and statistics to evaluate the controversy. They concluded:

Our committee believes that the assessments that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade in a millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year in a millennium cannot be supported by the MBH98/99 [the technical name of Mann’s original Hockey Stick paper]

Conclusion 1. The politicization of academic scholarly work leads to confusing public debates. Scholarly papers published in peer reviewed journals are considered the archival record of research. There is usually no requirement to archive supplemental material such as code and data. Consequently, the supplementary material for academic work is often poorly documented and archived and is not sufficiently robust to withstand intense public debate. In the present example there was too much reliance on peer review, which seemed not to be sufficiently independent.

Conclusion 2. Sharing of research materials, data, and results is haphazard and often grudgingly done. We were especially struck by Dr. Mann’s insistence that the code he developed was his intellectual property and that he could legally hold it personally without disclosing it to peers. When code and data are not shared and methodology is not fully disclosed, peers do not have the ability to replicate the work and thus independent verification is impossible.

Conclusion 3. As statisticians, we were struck by the isolation of communities such as the paleoclimate community that rely heavily on statistical methods, yet do not seem to be interacting with the mainstream statistical community. The public policy implications of this debate are financially staggering and yet apparently no independent statistical expertise was sought or used.

Conclusion 4. While the paleoclimate reconstruction has gathered much publicity because it reinforces a policy agenda, it does not provide insight and understanding of the physical mechanisms of climate change except to the extent that tree ring, ice cores and such give physical evidence such as the prevalence of green-house gases. What is needed is deeper understanding of the physical mechanisms of climate change.


Not even going to read this. The hockey-stick hypothesis has been through the scientific wringer and found to be more or less correct. This whole politicized witch hunt stuff has to stop.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1854 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 6:51 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Not even going to read this.

Nice rebuttal. :thumbsup:
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1855 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 6:54 pm

More politics - Gas companies are now working with environmentalists to reduce the use of coal. But some environmental groups are working with the nukes to reduce the use of gas and oil.

Fascinating.

I haven't seen many if any cost benefit analysis (poverty to use of fossil fuels) on global warming. Kind of reminds me of the heyday of the "population bomb".
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1856 » by dckingsfan » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:03 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Not even going to read this.

Nice rebuttal. :thumbsup:

http://www.pbl.nl/sites/default/files/cms/publicaties/pbl-2015-climate-science-survey-questions-and-responses_01731.pdf

Less certainty that originally represented - ie: 97%
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1857 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:14 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Not even going to read this.

Nice rebuttal. :thumbsup:


I don't have to read it. It's some partisan witchhunt bs, isn't it?

I skimmed through it you crybaby. Happy now? You changed the subject from "Is climate change happening?" to "was this particular scientists fancy graph strictly accurate?" which is basically politically motivated witchhunting.

Swear to god, you're turning into hands. Making it five pages long doesn't make it any less bs Nate.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1858 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:16 pm

dckingsfan wrote:More politics - Gas companies are now working with environmentalists to reduce the use of coal. But some environmental groups are working with the nukes to reduce the use of gas and oil.

Fascinating.

I haven't seen many if any cost benefit analysis (poverty to use of fossil fuels) on global warming. Kind of reminds me of the heyday of the "population bomb".

The use of fossil fuels has been the single greatest life-saving achievement of the human race. The amount of lives saved by fossil fuels is almost beyond comprehension. The global warming doomsayer's fetish with reducing carbon is going to end up killing a whole lot of people in third world countries. They don't seem to have any understanding how important fossil fuels are to feeding the planet.

It is far from certain that more carbon is even a net negative. Mild warming would almost certainly be a good thing for most of the world, producing much more arable land; and more carbon in the atmosphere aids the growth of vegetation. So far, all the doom-and-gloom predictions of arctic ice melt, rising sea levels and horrible weather have been categorically false. Antarctic ice levels are at record highs, and arctic ice levels have recovered dramatically from a recent minimum in 2013. The small atolls in the Indian and Pacific Oceans are holding steady or increasing in size, not decreasing due to rising sea levels. Hurricanes have been infrequent and mild for a decade now. And droughts have become more and more rare.

The idea that we should prioritize the spending of trillions of dollars to combat a non-existent problem in the face of very real global issues is madness.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1859 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:18 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:More politics - Gas companies are now working with environmentalists to reduce the use of coal. But some environmental groups are working with the nukes to reduce the use of gas and oil.

Fascinating.

I haven't seen many if any cost benefit analysis (poverty to use of fossil fuels) on global warming. Kind of reminds me of the heyday of the "population bomb".

The use of fossil fuels has been the single greatest life-saving achievement of the human race. The amount of lives saved by fossil fuels is almost beyond comprehension. The global warming doomsayer's fetish with reducing carbon is going to end up killing a whole lot of people in third world countries. They don't seem to have any understanding how important fossil fuels are to feeding the planet.

It is far from certain that more carbon is even a net negative. Mild warming would almost certainly be a good thing for most of the world, producing much more arable land. And more carbon in the atmosphere aids the growth of vegetation. So far, all the doom-and-gloom predictions of arctic ice melt, rising sea levels and horrible weather have been categorically false. Antarctic ice levels are at record highs, and arctic ice levels have recovered dramatically from a recent minimum in 2013. The small atolls in the Indian and Pacific Oceans are holding steady or increasing in size, not decreasing due to rising sea levels. Hurricanes have been infrequent and mild for a decade now. And droughts have become more and more rare.

The idea that we should prioritize the spending of trillions of dollars to combat a non-existent problem in the face of very real global issues is madness.


This doesn't make any sense. Only the US and China have significant deposits of coal, everyone else has been forced to use mainly hydro and nukes. Reducing emissions affects primarily us and China, to a lesser extent India. We're not even asking China to reduce emissions but to try not to start emitting in the future.

I don't understand why it's impossible for you guys to admit that climate change is a thing. It is. Believing the world negotiations on carbon emissions aren't going anywhere does not actually require you to close your mind to science.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1860 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 1, 2015 7:28 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:More politics - Gas companies are now working with environmentalists to reduce the use of coal. But some environmental groups are working with the nukes to reduce the use of gas and oil.

Fascinating.

I haven't seen many if any cost benefit analysis (poverty to use of fossil fuels) on global warming. Kind of reminds me of the heyday of the "population bomb".

The use of fossil fuels has been the single greatest life-saving achievement of the human race. The amount of lives saved by fossil fuels is almost beyond comprehension. The global warming doomsayer's fetish with reducing carbon is going to end up killing a whole lot of people in third world countries. They don't seem to have any understanding how important fossil fuels are to feeding the planet.

It is far from certain that more carbon is even a net negative. Mild warming would almost certainly be a good thing for most of the world, producing much more arable land. And more carbon in the atmosphere aids the growth of vegetation. So far, all the doom-and-gloom predictions of arctic ice melt, rising sea levels and horrible weather have been categorically false. Antarctic ice levels are at record highs, and arctic ice levels have recovered dramatically from a recent minimum in 2013. The small atolls in the Indian and Pacific Oceans are holding steady or increasing in size, not decreasing due to rising sea levels. Hurricanes have been infrequent and mild for a decade now. And droughts have become more and more rare.

The idea that we should prioritize the spending of trillions of dollars to combat a non-existent problem in the face of very real global issues is madness.


This doesn't make any sense. Only the US and China have significant deposits of coal, everyone else has been forced to use mainly hydro and nukes. Reducing emissions affects primarily us and China, to a lesser extent India. We're not even asking China to reduce emissions but to try not to start emitting in the future.

I don't understand why it's impossible for you guys to admit that climate change is a thing. It is. Believing the world negotiations on carbon emissions aren't going anywhere does not actually require you to close your mind to science.

Reducing emissions only affects us because China has committed to doubling their emissions by 2030 and India has committed to tripling theirs. And how to you think carbon emission regulation is going to affect sub-Saharan Africa, whose population is projected to expand from it's current 1 billion to 2 billion in 2050 and 4 billion in 2100? They're either going to starve (unlikely) or they're going to ignore the regulations (likely). The end result is that the U.S. will curtail it's carbon use while the rest of the world does not, giving us a competitive disadvantage.

I'll also point out that the U.S. is actually a carbon sink. Thanks to our low population density, we absorb more CO2 than we emit. A more rational metric for carbon utilization should be carbon emitted per square mile, not carbon emitted per capita. Essentially, the rapid spread of capitalism and free market democracy has curtailed our population expansion so that we've become responsible stewards of the environment.

Our solution is to further tax our standard of living to make environmental care more difficult, while redistributing that money to the third world where it will aid in their population growth and cause more environmental damage.

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